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Greer argues that those, too, were slower than we think.
As an example...there's evidence now that Easter Islanders had about 50 years - about two generations - from the time they became aware resources were running out, and the final collapse into warfare and cannibalism.
This was reflected in changes in their technology (to adjust to the declining resources), and in the formation of larger political groups, that made larger statues.
They saw the end coming, but were unable to change enough to do anything about it. Except build a bigger stone head.
My understanding is that the very largest stone heads were still remaining in the quarries. If only they had gotten those heads in place - then everything would have been fine. Surely there are countless civilizations where those biggest stone heads were successfully installed in time; we just don't hear about them
cfm in Gray, ME
My head just exploded from your comment!?
Peak Head?
heaven forbid!
I don't like where this thread is heading.
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/sep2006/pi20060907_515138.h...
Good article from September, 2006. An excerpt:
If we use ExxonMobil's upper end estimate of 6% per year from existing wells, we only need about 70 mbpd of new total liquids production in 2015, that we didn't have in 2005, to be producing 106 mbpd. No problemo, 'cause we are certainly enjoying the $38 oil prices that Yergin & CERA promised us we would have.
? I was thinking about the comment above.
and tried to be funny but now I get confused instead.
+2
Maybe ... maybe not:
I guarantee you right this second Pentagon planners are having waking nightmares about this. No military establishment in the history of the world is as energy- dependent as the US's. Our world- wide archipelago of bases requires resupply and personnel to be shipped by air. Our operational doctrine requires air superiority which means fuel- guzzling high performance aircraft both for combat duties as well as for force deployment, resupply, refueling, communications and air traffic control. The Navy, while smaller in total ship numbers than during the Reagan era, requires supertanker amounts of fuel, even the nuclear ships -carriers and submarines - require petroleum. Aircraft carriers are nothing more than floating tank farms for the dozens of fighter and reconnaisence aircraft they carry ... as well as to support their enormous crews in comfort.
Most of the legacy military equipment the US relies upon inhales fuel; the M1A series main battle tank 'gets' a green five gallons per mile; this vehicle needs 11 gallons of fuel to start the engine. During Desert Storm, the armor had to tow small trailers of fuel behind. The smallest and most economical vehicle in daily use by the military is the Hummer. The real one, not the smaller H2 civilian Hummer that green people 'whine' about.
Every part of the US military requires vast quantities of fuel.
- F/A 18 (combat fighter/bomber equiv. F16, F22, F15 JSF) 6,000 gallons for a combat mission radius of 500 miles.
- M1A2 Abrams main battle tank (equiv. Russian T80, both with turbine engines) 5 gal/ mile.
- Airlift command aircraft; C141, C17 have fuel consumption equiv. to comparable wide- bodied commercial aircraft.
Modern naval ships tend to much larger - and less economical to operate - than their equivalents from the WWII era. Of course, all the support, ammunition, lubricants, navigation and communication devices have to be manufactured, tested, shipped to the user and made use off and replaced ... all this requires petroleum. No navy or other service uses wind, coal, wood or any 'alternative' fuel for operations.
The biofuel experiment and the biofuel relationship to food has been attempted before. At the end of the Second World War, Germany distilled 'white gas' or ethanol from its potato crop. This amount of biofuel produced was insufficient to Germany's operational needs; Germany had numerous heavy tanks, tank destroyers and jet aircraft and more than adequate manpower ... but could not operate these items because of the lack of fuel. Because the potato crop had been diverted to fuel manufacture, the survivors in Germany in 1945-46 endured a serious famine that was only relieved by intensive efforts of the US and USSR.
The Air Force has been working on a program to develop a 'biofuel' for its aircraft:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/us_air_force_pl.html
While this may address training issues and whatnot within this country, such fuels - as well as solar panels (the Pentagon itself has one) and fuel cells cannot support overseas operations.
Fuel constraints will become far more noticeable five years from now. This illuminates certain aspects of US policy, such as our stance in Iraq. It is becoming more clear that having a long- term military presence in Iraq is central to ensuring that fuel is available for 'vital functions' which would certainly include military operations. It is also certain that this insurance will be maintained ... either with or without the cooperation of a 'compliant' Iraqi government. This explains candidate Obama's recalibration of his proposal to withdraw from Iraq "Responsibly". This responsible withdrawal could take as long as a hundred years ... or as long as there is oil available in Iraq ... and Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Whether China has or has not 'contracts' with the Iraqi government is irrelevant. They don't have a military presence in the Middle East ... and can't. They don't have sufficient fuel.
The same fuel 'metric' is applicable to all major powers' military establishments both in China, India, Russia and NATO. The cumulative investment of trillions and trillions in military infrastructure is a wasting asset. In five years no military will have sufficient fuel available to function as they can currently. Some militaries may not be able to function at all; NATO, China, Pakistan, India; Russia will be fractionally effective and countries with fuel reserves; Brazil and Nigeria do not have military infrastructures.
Looke at this way, it appears better to turn this military investment to use now, when there is both fuel to use the materiel and some fuel availability as an outcome of military action.
Some things to watch:
- Russian interest in the central Asian republics that have oil reserves and were once part of the USSR.
- America will use a pretext to invade Venezuela.
- A ressonable likelihood that Al Qaeda is on the US payroll ... similar to the 'Awakening Groups' in Iraq. These are also labeled 'Al Qaede in Mesopotamia' by both the US government and the media when it is convenient to manipulate how issues arising in Iraq and elsewhere are presented to the public. It is noticable that the US does not attack Al Qaeda assets and that organization does not attach US/European targets. Osama's organization would be useful to turn against the Saudis. Keep in mind, 'insurgent activities' are used ss provocations for various US military activities. A successful Al Qaeda attack on the Saudi royal family would be a reason for US troops to 'reposition' themselves inside Saudi Arabia.
- Look for a dramatic increase of military activities between Pakistan and India both in and outside of Kashmir. Pakistan's fuel situation is even more dire than the Germans at the end of WWII. It's 'use it or lose it' in Kashmir.
- Look for an increase in Taliban activities in Iran! Iran is a closed society, but a large enough attack would be published in the Western press. The Taliban is an instrument of the (Sunni) Pakistani ISI intelligence service.
- Look for the Taliban to keep up the pressure in Afghanistan ... but not any 'go for broke' offensives. Time is on the Taliban's side. NATO is being pulled by events in Eastern Europe and will have to make choices .. all of them stupid choices but momentum is building for a Euro-Russian confrontation. The Taliban will wait for NATO to go home and then put more pressure on the Americans ... who will have to choose between supporting the effort in Afghanistan (no oil) and supporting the effort in Iraq (the rest of the oil).
- Look for NATO to lose its collective mind over Russia. NATO planners are looking at the gas guage while losing sleep over an imminent Russian invasion of eastern Germany! Reasonably, NATO will rather fight WWIII in Ukraine rather than in Poland so look for a fast track for Ukraine NATO membership ... exactly a useless move. Russia won't attack Europe. Europe is Russia's best customer.
- Look for Russian bellicosity to increase. Russia knows that 'threats' cause the price of oil to increase. They will make threats. Russia is looking at the gas guage, too. If they threat too hard, they could force a confrontation that makes the gas guage head to zero a lot faster than they would like ... and would at the same time unmask the threats as empty bluster.
We live in interesting times ...
Thanks for a very informative post.
Question: how much of the military could be supplied by coal to oil technology?
Obviously there could be no question of running the civilian car fleet by this means, but perhaps the far smaller needs of the military could be covered, to some extent at least?
Theoretically, most if not all ... practically, not very much.
The military has a difficult time commandeering resources for its own use, in a peace- time environment. In a 'national emergency' the domestic petroleum supply would be directed to the military but that would defeat the end purpose which is to both support military activities while at the same time supporting 'economic' activities such as building/supporting sprawl and 'happy motoring'.
I suppose the 'coal hydrogenation' process can be made to work. This has probably been discussed here on TOD. I doubt it would scale in time and is a super- dirty process. The Nazis also used this method to produce fuel, but the plants were susceptible to bombing and the output was small in relation to the amount of energy consumed by the plants themselves.
The total Energy Return on Investment will have to be re- calculated to take into consideration the costs of military actions to obtain or defend fuel supplies.
It takes little in the way of a policy miscalculation to skew the EROI into uncharted and unchartable dimensions. Consider a nuclear exchange between India and Pakistan that destroys all the major cities of both countries, kills 500 million people and reduces world-wide crop yields by fifty percent. How does one price this?
>>>>
Steve - are you Steve who used to work with Sparky/Massie from Verizon UK ?
It is very poor planning to try to switch the USAF to ethanol. South Africa was cut off from world oil supplies and found some relief in converting coal to oil, it is not cheap but it is more practical. The risk of needing corn imports to satisfy Federal biofuels mandates is high. The strategic value of the United States to the world might lessen if the United States will lose its ability to export grain. The pentagon lacked foresight during the euphoria of ethanol dreaming. The return on investment for ethanol is currently in the negative range. An unprofitable nation finds its inflation adjusted income declining.
The U.S. had a bully agressive attitude during the Bush years when Iraq was invaded based on false charges; with grossly underestimated war costs. The pro-Iraqi invasion governments of England, Spain, and Italy were voted out. The Republicans lost Congress. Rush Limbaugh needed a drug rehab program after fraudulently obtaining 2,000 pain killers in six months.
The Feds have borrowed the entire Social Security Fund surplus to fund deficit spending and now the boomers approach retirement age after the government has already spent what they was supposed to have been saved for their retirements. The Social Security fund is expected to reach a deficit crisis once they start to retire. They were not even giving T-bills in exchange for their social security payments.
The government ceased to recognize the Geneva convention guidelines while using waterboarding.
The government unilaterally violated a non-proliferation treaty with the Russians by placing missles near their border. That upset the Russians. Tensions have mounted. The loss of Russian oil imports or natural gas to the EU might be devastating. Some sort of deal to allow free trade should be put forward instead of economic sanctions.
OPEC might not be able to keep oil prices down. They appeared to be a self-serving organization. Some of the OPEC nations suffered under Islamic law and wished to impose this law on others by force. There are yet many scholars critical of Koran, its contradictions, and the differences between it and other world legal systems.
Steve,
I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for spending your valuable time writing this superb post!
Best,
w
Hezbollah's presence in Venezuela draws concern
"...draws concern." I like that touch. Pure Judith Miller.
If McCain starts to surge in the polls I would suggest Hugo start filling and parking tankers.
Thanks, Steve,
This is interesting. Perhaps you could expand it and write an article?
A couple of questions:
1) It looks like you're outlining at least the case for (if not claiming a knowledge about) US military presence in Iraq (and elsewhere) is a result of a particular strategy on the part of the "Pentagon planners" that has an assumption of "peak oil" as its basis. So, the logic is to use the military apparatus while there exists the (possibility of) fuel to run it. (Yes?)
“…when there is both fuel to use the materiel and some fuel availability as an outcome of military action.”
So, one question is - do you believe that Pentagon planners share the "mega-projects study group" (combined with ELM) view of near-term peak? Do you believe they accept this analysis?
Do you feel that they see the total situation in a way that enables them to "get it" WRT the high degree of dependency, the economic correlations (i.e., necessity of LTF availability), etc.? In other words, do you also feel they see the implications for the global industrial economy?
Do you have the impression they see any implications outside the purview of their immediate planning objectives, in other words? If so, do you think they feel any obligation to either A) address the issue outside the responsibilities of their individual (career) positions, or B) to inform/warn/share this view with others?
Just thought I'd ask.
2) Anyway, my question is, below you also say...
“… the end purpose which is to both support military activities while at the same time supporting 'economic' activities such as building/supporting sprawl and 'happy motoring'.”
In other words, as you say:
“The total Energy Return on Investment will have to be re- calculated to take into consideration the costs of military actions to obtain or defend fuel supplies.”
Do you believe that anyone in any government anywhere actually does this?
In other words, do the Pentagon planners, for eg., look at the amount of oil required for military functions, the amount such functions (if "successful") would (so to speak) "yield", and then see if there's any "leftover" for the running of US society?
So, they actually take a look at this in some kind of qualitative and quantitative way?
So, that there's the possibility they might pick a number or percentage and say "Wups, well, our return just went negative...maybe we should pack up and go home." (Question mark?)
Because if this way of looking at the issue is even a remote possibility, then it seems the numbers, in terms of cost and, more importantly, debt incurred, would show a net negative yield prior to taking any military action. (Ignoring the factor of lives lost, etc.).
Or, do you suppose the thinking is to "secure" supply, in the sense of prevent interruption of supply, and there is really no cost/benefit analysis beyond this?
I guess I wonder how many people representing what sectors of government look at this and how they see it. In other words, I wonder what Cheney thinks about and who he talks to, likewise, how much overlap with anyone in the Pentagon (or anywhere else, for that matter).
Steve you are over emphasizing the issue. Sure american army uses most oil as compared to any army but how much, just one percent of total american consumption of oil. Thats too little to make america reduce any of its military operations or global presence. If not anything else the american domestic oil production is enough to sustain american military for a long long time.
I can tell about Pakistan. Being a muslim country Pakistan always get easy (low price and sometimes even free) oil from saudi arabia. Just yesterday saudi arabia agreed to deliver 110,000 barrels of oil to Pakistan which Pakistan can pay later, this will help a lot in present foreign exchange shortage of Pakistan.
Total oil consumption of Pakistan is just 350,000 barrels/day which is so small an amount that we will hopefully keep getting it for a long long time especially because (1)about 25% of this is produced domestically (2)there are some more untapped resources in sindh that can be extracted (3)we are close to the oil producing region (4) all of the oil exporters of middle east from saudi arabia to iran are our friends (5) we have huge deposits of natural gas (6) we have 20% of coal reserves of world. Since we have no military presence outside our borders and we are not in any major war at the moment (except a minor short scale war in tribal areas which is sponsored by america) therefore our military not consume high amount of energy.
Why? The kashmir conflict is there since 1948, what special happened now to expect 'dramatic increase in military activities' in kashmir?
Its only our oil situation that is problematic, other fuels like we use like natural gas etc are still there in large amount.
What do you mean by " 'use it or lose it' in kashmir"? What exactly is there to use that get wasted forever if we not use it now?
Could it be all those stone heads were simply "busy-work" which the elites foisted onto the working class, likely using religion.
If the elites distract the working class with useless effort and religion, then the energies of the working class would not be expended eliminating the elites.
Good one Hard hat.
Elites have a way of making people believe they belong to the higher class. People don't rebel against their 'own' class.
Elites use religion and civic ethics to make us believe what they want us to believe. They have blatantly taken control of the media, from top to bottom (journalists used to start as high school graduates, now they need a degree...).
They are telling us to be like them: we must pursue lust, gluttony, greed, envy, pride, wrath and sloth if we want to be happy. Sex, food, money, having more than your neighbor, war and leisure & 'labour-saving devices', are the things we need and want and are willing to pay good money for.
Spend some time watching ads and (recent)movies, if you didn't know this already. The elites are teaching us to be sinful: if everybody is sinful, they make more money.
There is paradox here: they want us to have religion, whereas an atheist git like me can clearly see the dearth of morals in the story(ies) they are telling us.
Being happy is not what you have, it is what you do.
Sorry for digressing.
Hi lukitas,
Interesting. I'd say this isn't a digression. It sounds like you and Alan from Big Easy are neighbors.
re: "Being happy is not what you have, it is what you do."
Hi Aniya
Thanks for commenting. I'm sorry I don't know Alan from Big Easy.
I'll google.
The point I would like to make is this: an altruistic attitude is rewarding : emotionally, socially, often materially. Humans have fun when they help each other.
However, most of the media tell us to be gluttons, while presupposing that we are all enthusiastically religious.
It has become the rule to party, feed, drink, work, drive, dress and leisure yourself to death, for as much as you can afford. If you've got it, flaunt it.
Of the seven virtues, only faith is required, hope has us by the short and curlies, whereas love, humanity, justice, prudence and temperance are discounted, and courage is under fire.
Strange that an unfaithful unbelieving atheist should be pointing this out.
It made me really happy to find someone had responded to my comment : thank you Aniya.
One small insight from my own experience. Giving to others enrichs life in dimensions that no other path can. But good food, good drink and good companionship can add to that.
There need not be a contradiction between the "pleasures of the flesh" and the pleasures of the spirit :-)
Best Hopes for a Life well lived,
Alan
Hi Alan,
re: "good companionship"
That's why we're here. :)
The food and drink not being available in our TOD cybergathering.
Nice to meet you Alan.
Apparently, we look at life from a similar angle.
It is good to hear from you.
lukitas
OK, try these on for size, in Historical order:
P-Tr = was it an asteroid ???
K-T asteroid = ???
Pompeii = 2 days
European Black death = 4 years
Holocaust = 6 years
Everyone have a happy day!
When I was much, much younger and first started out with aquariums I noticed that occasionally a few fish would die, but the die-off was never total.... The system recovered... And I thought that the adults that were warning me about fish mass to water volume ratios were all worryworts. Then one day it turned out to be different... all the fish were floating belly-up.
d-/ <-- (up-side-down)
Since then I've listened to worryworts.
Of course if the worryworts had been warning you about the fish mass/ water volume and it turned out to be a farilure in your aerator pump, not a lack of food, the worryworts would have gotten it completely wrong. Just remember, just because someone yells that the sky is falling doesn't mean you should immediately invest your life savings in a sky proof bomb shelter. You could end up with a very expensive hole in the ground.
Actually, a high fish mass/water volume ration will create a chemical imbalance that is toxic to most species of fish, regardless of aerator pump performance or food availability (food availabilty may even worse the problem).
as long as you identified the root cause, you should be fine in the future then. If I came and told you that you can't put blue fish and red fish in the same tank, however, you'd probably once again discount me as a worrywort. Just pointing out that worrywortism doesn't make people right.
The Black Death caused massive disruption for sure, but it wasn't the end of civilization. And it's the same for the other disasters you list, with the possible exception of the asteroid (and as you note, it's not clear exactly what happened then).
That is what Greer is arguing. He's not arguing that terrible things can't happen suddenly to individuals...sometimes a lot of individuals. Nor is he saying that collapse won't happen.
Rather, he's saying that it will be slow and uneven, with stair-steps down followed by temporary recoveries.
I guess it gets into your definition of "collapse" and "society", neither of which I want to do right now. I don't personally buy the notion that there will be a fast crash return to the stone age either. All I'm saying is that to argue that the world can't change a lot in 10 years is not consistent with the historical record, even if it hasn't happened in the last 50 years.
But nobody is arguing that. Greer points out that Russia did indeed change a lot...but it wasn't a straight line to the stone age.
Greer does think that things can happen fast. In one of his posts, he warned his readers that we might be approaching such a point. (IIRC, it was when everyone was worried about economic collapse last spring.) Turned out nothing happened, but I think it's clear that he does believe that big changes can happen suddenly.
The Black Death took off in Europe immediately after the 'Year without a summer', a famine year that was probably the result of a massive volcanic detonation in the Indonesian archpelago which blasted huge amounts of dust into the atmosphere and cooled the planet. The immune system is very sensitive to starvation, antibodies are proteins. It could be argued that the critical mass required for take off of the epidemic was acheived as a result of the weakened state of the population. It is another example of how one catastrophe might turbocharge another. World wide food shortages are looming, this has to be a a cause for concern with bird flu and multidrug resistant TB just waiting for an opening to wreak their mayhem.
The Year Without a Summer was long after the Black Death.
However, I've seen theories that link the Great Famine (years earlier) with the Black Death. And also with "peak wood." Contrary to popular belief, people liked to bathe back then, and villages had public baths, like in Japan. But firewood grew so scarce the bathhouses had to shut down and hot water for washing became a luxury for the wealthy.
I agree it can get bad very fast. In the age of peak everything it could get dicey. The third world is experiencing the nightmares much earlier than the 'developed' world. Throughout the developing world loadshedding, hunger and warfare/pestilence is the norm.
But imagine a food born pestilence that creates a yawning gap in the grain supply. A global 25% reduction. (Something like ug99 wheat rust but that extends to corn). We have a just in time food supply today, and no room for error.
That is the one I think about. Declining oil supplies hits food hard too. In the developed world 20% of oil is for agriculture. Without natural gas and oil corn goes from 220 bushels an acre to something under 135 bushels an acre.
I am noticing the storms hitting a lot harder (e.g. Gustav) and our ability to recover from them being slower. This slowly tightening vice will be interesting to watch. I like to think we have time to respond, to change to adapt. But there may not be such a luxury this time around.
"That is the one I think about. Declining oil supplies hits food hard too. In the developed world 20% of oil is for agriculture. Without natural gas and oil corn goes from 220 bushels an acre to something under 135 bushels an acre."
Uh, actually, it goes a whole lot lower than that. The cropland that has been farmed with chemicals is essentially dead and poisoned so they it will grow almost nothing without those chemical inputs. And it takes years for it to recover. Ask all those farmers in India who got suckered into the "Green Revolution" and now no longer can afford to buy the fossil-fuel fertilizers -- they have been committing suicide at the rate of about 10,000 a year for the last few years at least.
Holocaust = 6 years
1917-1915 = 2 years. If one goes from 1914 to 1918 - still not 6 years.
1939-1945
http://www.berkeleyinternet.com/holocaust/
you're obviously not talking about the same Holocaust.
...or the same vice {sic].
When I hear the term "holocaust" I automatically think of Nazi Germany in WWII. Especially when the writer equated it to "six years". I've never heard of the Armenian holocaust referred to generically as "the holocaust".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust
I've never heard of the Armenian holocaust referred to generically as "the holocaust".
But it was THE 1st program of deliberate extermination planned and executed in the 20th century. (The American Indian was a dead issue) And Churchill's use of the word ties the meaning to the Armenians.
Even the word Genocide was born of the way the Armenians were treated.
So after reading the link you provided, are implying that it is wrong to use the generic term "Holocaust" to refer to events of the WWII period is wrong, but it is OK to refer to the killing of Armenians as such? From your link:
If your problem with the use of the term "holocaust" was in it being co-opted by survivors of Nazi atrocities, you could have indicated as such. Trying to imply that the writer who indicated Holocaust = 6 years was incorrect because the Armenian holocaust lasted only two or four years seems pretty weak.
I knew what he meant, but this is not the point. I don't see a good use in arguing whether the Native Americans, African Slaves, Jews, Armenians, Tutsis etc. got the worst deal. You can make arguments for each. I was simply using the generally accepted naming convention, and picked a few examples.
My point is just that societies can collapse within short (less than 10 years) timeframes. I consider Europe 1936-1945 the collapse of a society. Europe 1913-1919 could also be considered the collapse of a society. The fact that new civilizations emerged in their place doesn't negate the fact that the old ones collapsed.
Captital or lower case H? holocaust is a noun but usually (the) Holocaust refers to WWII.
I find perpetuation though language interesting, after all why do we have a word like 'antisemitic',
is it not a form of bigotry? Does this imply it is more vicious, or more pervasive than other forms of ethnoreligious bigotry? Antimuslin or anticatholicdon't seem to have gained a foothold.
Neven
I tend to agree with consumer. I really wish I had ignored Eric's original comment. I should have known better.
Judging by the length and ferocity of yesterday's (or the day before) thread on whether the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified, I'd just as soon let this holocaust/Holocaust debate fizzle before it becomes another incredible waste of time and energy.
The validity of the word antisemitism vs. other words to describe bigotry, I don't even want to go near that one. I'd hate to see WisdomFromPakistan get banned by Leanan :-)
That's a joke having to do with pro/anti Israel/Palestinian debates that seem to crop up from time to time. My intention is only to close with a little levity and not offend anyone and I apologize to WFP and Leanan using them in my joke, but it was very hard to resist.
That timeline makes sense. I'd point out that we're now 35-40 years from first becoming aware of resource issues (Population Bomb - 1968, Limits to Growth - 1972, OPEC Embargo - 1973/4). Warfare and cannibalisim 10-15 years off, then? Well, warfare seems already to be here, eh?
That's if you assume a global collapse will follow the same timeline as one small island in the middle of nowhere.
I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. I think our collapse will be much slower, simply because we're larger, and have a lot longer to fall.
Some think the opposite - that we will collapse faster. But there's no evidence to support that. Larger societies that collapsed, such as Rome, took longer than Easter Island.
Which isn't to say there won't be a lot of individual tragedies along the way, some of them quite abrupt.
One thing about our collapse. Wouldn't the last of of the easter islander's simply left? They didn't all have to die, maybe they just said "screw it" and hopped in a boat to South America or back across the pacific? And the fall of the roman empire had little to do with resources than a collapse of a cohesive political hierarchy, where rival nations became more powerful than them. I'm not saying we'll be able to become more populous in this resource constrained environment, nor am I saying that war and strife aren't in our future, but why is there an assumption that 100% die-off of the human species is in any shape probable? Alot of doom and gloom from people who know no more than the rest of us. Oh well.
Greer isn't saying there will be a 100% dieoff. Few peak oilers believe the dieoff will be 100%.
Peak Oil is unfortunate for industrial societies but Global Warming is going to knock us on our rear.
Joe
Climate change is a different animal.
David Goodstein, professor of physics and vice-provost of CalTech, points out in his book that there's a possibility that AGW could tip the earth into a state "incompatible with life."
And it could happen fast. During the Younger Dryas reversal at the end of the last ice age, there were three and two year patches of change (within a larger change) in temp of several degrees C.
Climate change does not always happen in geological time, it can happen in human time as well. We are due for changes as abrupt as this, but with a greater magnitude.
The Earth has a stable mode incompatible with life: frozen solid. My understanding is that even with the highest possible level of greenhouse gas you don't get temperature rise more than 6 degrees (C). All the ice sheets would melt, but it would be very wet and you could still feed a lot of people. Contrariwise if we undershoot on the greenhouse gas levels [not easy I know] and get an ice age then things would be bad.
Alas, there is a variable humans do not have the technology to control - the output from the sun. Sun output may have been why iceball earth existed.
This would be incorrect, so far as I know. Link?
Cheers
Got it from someone who would know, but I might have misremembered. Looking around I found this to the contrary from Gavin Schmidt at realclimate: "Look at Venus for an example of extreme CO2 forcing…. The effect doesn’t saturate, it just slows. - gavin". It's pretty moot since we are going to lose our ability to pump CO2 into the air sooner than the IPCC expect. That assumes no run away effects from high temperatures, but remember the previous interglacial was a few degrees warmer than this one and it didn't happen then.
I think the new sensitivity findings by Hansen, et al., last year blow the idea of a max of 6 degrees out of the water. We can reach six degrees well before blowing all the fossil fuels into the air.
The Paper:
http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/10/1/131321/083/
An article on the paper:
http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/2007/EastWest_20070925.pdf
There have been other comments and papers from Hansen since. He's saying 6C for doubling of CO2. That's 560ppm. We can easily do that. We just learned there's something like 1/3 or 1/2 more carbon in the permafrost than they thought, and, of course, that the permafrost is melting.... a hundred years ahead of schedule. (Anything about that sound familiar?)
Cheers
The Solar System around us furnishes a pretty powerful pointer as to the potency of warming by greenhouse gases. Venus,our nearest planetary neighbour in the Solar System provides ample evidence of what a 'runaway greenhouse gas' effect can achieve in terms of surface temperature - some 400-500 degrees centigrade - enough to melt Lead! Whilst this is admittedly an extreme example, highly unlikely to be replicated on Earth, I would certainly regard a maximum rise of 6 degrees centigrade as a hopelessly hubristic wild guess, since at this point, even the best scientific minds around cannot determine with any real accuracy how the positive feedback loops of climate change will interact with each other.
The 6 degrees comment has got some basis, as that is around the rise in previous mass extinctions where methane was released.
Of course, it is purely a ball park estimate, but the only prior experience we have indicates a rise of this order.
Lovelock argues that "hot rocks" is likely a stable mode. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was in several Guardian.UK articles of this past winter and also in his book, "Revenge of Gaia". His argument is that insolation levels have been slowly increasing and that Gaia was a the upper range of what she could tolerate without flipping to a new stable state.
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head Joe, although I feel you vastly underrate the significance of the effect Peak Oil will have on our individual lives, when you describe it as being 'unfortunate for industrial societies'. Peak Oil will initially bring the world we know to it's knees, although Global Warming will almost certainly deliver the final death blow. One thing is pretty much assured when these two 'Grim Reapers' have finished taking their toll - there will be far fewer of us inhabiting this planet. Taken in isolation, most post-Peak Oil scenario predictions range around an ultimate population reduction of 4-5 billion from the present 6.4 billion. Figure in Global Warming on top of that, and it has to be conceded that prospects for the future of the human race are none too rosy on present showing. Seems like Malthus might yet be ultimately vindicated in his views!
Exactly! Only those with extremely little knowledge of biology believe there will be 100% dieoff. Homo sapiens occupy almost every niche of the earth, nothing could possibly wipe out all of them. And even if we have a pandemic we are so numerous that some would be immune.
How large a dieoff will it really be. Everything is just a wild ass guess but I would expect that sometime in the second half of this century the population of the earth will be less than half a billion people. Just as we are deep into overshoot right now, we will likewise go deep into undershoot. That is, our population will drop well below the long term carrying capacity. Then it will gradually rise to that level before Malthusian limits hit us again. And the population will likely settle at that level from now on.
But as I said everything is just a guess. The population could drop to much lower than half a billion, depending on how serious things get during the collapse.
Ron Patterson
If a crash does happen I would feel that population levels may sink far more than you suggest. This is because under those circumstances people fight for resources.
As discussed previously, civilisation may well be a one-shot deal, as the richest deposits have been used up, especially of fossil fuels.
Furthermore many more renewable resources, such as the oceans and topsoil, have been trashed compared to historic levels and endemic warfare would complete the process.
In a society such as that no resources would be available to deal with issues like climate change, and a couple of failures of the monsoons would do for huge numbers of people.
The best hope would be that some areas managed to insulate themselves from the crash, maybe China or the US.
If this did not happen, population might drop to hunter gatherer levels, but reduced from that due to resource degradation.
At that time world population was perhaps 4 million.
Woah! dave getting his doomer on.
Well I guess you did say "if".
500 to 600 million seems reasonable to me considering both problems in total. but there is one wild card that might make your 4 million a reality if not optimistic.
the asteroid apathos, is due to have a close by orbit in about 2020-2035, but there is one thing. it will pass near what's called the gravitational keyhole of the earth. a small window of space that if it passes through means that it will swing around and hit the earth in ten or so years after the first flyby. the last thing we need is a asteroid hitting us in the middle of us trying to work through peak oil and climate change.
I just can't see a support point for a 500million population.
to get down to that , you would need a pretty universal disaster, so if you have not got large pockets of highly developed technology, then you have to look at the last time the population was at that kind of level, in around 1600 or so.
Society at that time was extremely complex, and adapted to it's environment in a relatively stable way, many elements of which had not changed for hundreds of years, and the environment relatively undegraded.
In contrast, a 500 million population now would be one where the infrastructure had been being rapidly wiped out, where both famine and warfare were endemic.
This ties in with the reasons that hopes to move to a relatively 'green', small scale lifestyle are in my view unrealistic.
You can do that in areas of the world, but only because in other areas you have very sophisticated, high tech systems providing the basics.
Mining, for instance, is both high tech and high energy. That is just the start of the story though, as at every stage to process the materials you are relying on this infrastructure.
Both solar cells and wind turbines are utterly dependent on it, as is transport, computers - the list goes on.
To take a specific region, the UK, the present population is around 60 million.
Some kind of low-tech society might be able, in theory, to support around 4-6 million, which is the last time we were anything like 'back to the land'.
The process of reducing the population 10 fold though would so utterly trash society, not to mention the impoverishment of virtually all resources relative to our 1600'ish baseline, that the momentum would surely go past this.
Around 600,000 people was likely the size of the population after the fall of the Roman Empire and ensuing troubles.
If technology goes, this might be some sort of upper limit, but would seem to be pretty optimistic, again due to degradation of resources and the momentum of decline from 60 million to 600,000, with the warfare, famine and pestilence implied.
If the technological infrastructure goes, so do almost all of us.
Hot rocks would be 100%. Nuclear disaster could be 100%. Ocean toxicity could be 100%. The Rapture could be 100%. Gray goo nanotechnology could be 100%. I can't assign probabilities to any of those. Nor is there any reason to think it more likely that population would decline to well below half a billion and somehow stabilize there than that population would continue to plummet to zero.
Exactly! Only those with extremely little knowledge of biology believe there will be 100% dieoff.
Is this the same level of certainty as when you say 'there are no conspiracies'?
Iceball earth would have been a 100% human dieoff. The hot rocks model - 100% dieoff. Man's willingeness to kill each other in various horrid ways might just get humans to 100%.
The best way to get to 100% dieoff is the killing of the support biosphere. Heat/cold/tools of war like nuke or bio weapons could make it happen.
Edit: A way I had not thought of getting to 100% die off
The ingestion and absorption of industrial toxicities has contributed to an endocrine disruption that's resulted in a 40% decline in sperm count in 50 years. And I 'forgot' about the methane burp option.
Greg--
That was not a option. Polynesian Canoes were constructed out of large trees. Peak Trees (as in they were gone). How should were cook our neighbor tonight?
Well, actually, having done a brief Wikipedia search on Easter Island, it appears the inhabitants never disappeared at all. They did wreck their environment, but are still alive and well on the island today.
Leanan,
If we're all in the same boat, so to speak, arn't we all in the middle of nowhere?
I read the article with great interest. Then I read it again. I think Greer is a very smart man but I also think he still does not see the big picture. He talks about "speculative bubbles" and those who say "it is different this time". What no one seems to understand however is there was "never another time to be different from". And there were no other bubble to compare this one to.
Yes there is a bubble in oil but its a production bubble, not a price bubble. There is in fact a fossil fuel bubble that includes coal, natural gas and oil. This is the first fossil fuel bubble the world has ever experienced and it will burst, just like all bubbles.
This fossil energy bubble has produced a food bubble, which in turn has produced a population bubble, and that bubble will burst also. There have been other population bubbles, of other animals, and they have always burst. But this is the first worldwide human population bubble. And it cannot possibly be different this time because there was never another time to be different from.
Ron Patterson
Thanks Ron, well said.
Another observation in a different vein comes from the Chimp when he says that this will be the very first time in human history when all of humanity is faced with a decline in the amount of available energy.