Don't relax just yet. Gustav's interaction with the Cuban land mass took some of the steam out of the storm. It could quite likely rebuild before making landfall and arrive with the same or even greater intensity than Katrina, and unlike Katrina in a more target dense area.

Under the current model I envision outer bands blowing into the mouth of the river (from the east) prior to the passing of the hurricane, effectively raising the level of water, (hence blocking the way for relief), then the eye passes over the city or just upstream from it and dumps much more water which will have nowhere to go.

I don't wish to see something like this happen, but it does look possible, if not probable.

If you're in New Orleans, leave. Now.

Have been reading this site daily for over a year, just now making first comment.

Gustav may leave a more memorable impact on the U.S. than did Katrina. Should Gustav reach its full potential of inflicting destruction on the energy infrastructure of the gulf region, the entire nation would feel immediate economic after-shocks that Katrina could have never delivered in her time.

It's starting to look like this could be worse than Katrina in every way. It's currently forecast to hit NOLA in a worse spot and angle. It's more powerful, and some meteorologists say it will be bigger. (Most thought that was extremely unlikely before last night.)

I suppose the bright side is that we're better prepared. The evacuations are going more smoothly, and presumably the oil infrastructure is hardened.

But our reserves are depleted now. We have less inventory. And as Gail has pointed out, our financial system is less able to withstand this kind of blow. It won't be able to offer mortgage holidays and loans like it did last time. The government will no doubt step in...but they're not exactly in great shape financially, either.

Looking at the bigger picture, ATinNM looks at the cycle of destruction and debt created by hurricanes in the poorer Caribbean nations. Let's not forget Gustav is not striking only the USA.

Here's an excerpt:

The last thing a hurricane brings, that I am going to talk about, is economic devastation. The nations of the Caribbean, what with one thing and another, don't have a lot of spare cash sitting around. One of the reasons they don't have a lot of spare cash sitting around is every five to ten years a hurricane comes through and plays havoc with their economies for a year or so. I'm no expert in this field so I can't provide a cash accounting but those who are estimated the cost of Katrina (a supposedly Unique Event¹) anywhere from $20 to $150 billion. Even cutting this to 1/10 of the damage a country has gotta sell a buttload of bananas to get 2 to 15 billion bucks. And that money is tax money wrested from those lying thieving murderous bastard sons-of-bitches² like the United Fruit Chiquita Brands International company, when they condescend to pay any tax at all.

And let us not forget during the time between the hurricane and the check for the bananas clears the afflicted country has to borrow money from your local, friendly, international banker to buy food from the local, friendly, international grain dealer to feed the populace lest they starve to death or die of diseases while also using some of that money to purchase, from your local, friendly, international supplier various odds and thingummies to get the economy moving. Again.

Of course, should the country not pay the interest or principal for the loan, or for the food, or for the odds and thingummies - for whatever reason - a polite note from the bankers, dealers, and suppliers will be brought to their shores by the US Navy and delivered by the United States Marine Corp who, together and acting as one, will proceed to steal everything that isn't nailed down and crowbar up everything that is until the bankers, dealers, and suppliers are satisfied.

Or the country ekes along, repaying the debt and interest. Trying to get ahead of the game. Trying to develop.

And then, sometime later, another hurricane comes along and the whole sorry mess starts again.

500 years and the Europeans are counting down to the last days.

One wonders how the Arawak made it for thousands of years.

Jerome...you hit on something we haven't much discussed here with Gustav. We are in a worse situation financial situation now than when Katrina hit. The ability to finance the rebuilding in the wake of Gustav is going to be much more difficult now that credit is harder to come by (personal, commercial, municipal, etc.).

Some are not going to rebuild I think due to the new stipulations on loan terms or people/companies may just find out that they won't qualify for new loans.

The big petro companies will rebuild, but that will slice into profits more and more.

It's ironic that the hit will be taken by some of the disaster-capitalist vultures who swept up the pieces after Katrina, buying up what they thought was prime real estate.

http://www.powells.com/biblio/18-9780805079838-0
"People still reeling from catastrophe were being hit again, this time with economic 'shock treatment,' losing their land and homes to rapid-fire corporate makeovers."

Whatever we do, we must make sure we do it with borrowed money.

You talk about the economy affecting the reconstruction. What about the other way, what effect might have the hurricane on the already weakened economy, or it may be the first piece to start the domino fall.

Also, insurance coverage is different (lesser) than what it was when Katrina hit. Insurance companies realized how much they could lose if a big storm hit, and how difficult it was to tell wind from water damage. According to Insurance may not cover as much under Gustav, deductibles of 2% to 5% of the home value are now mandatory. When Katrina hit, deductibles were much smaller.

Also many policies have a wind exclusion. (The always did have a water exclusion.) If people with the wind exclusion want wind coverage, they can only buy it from the state-sponsored insurer, Louisiana Citizens Property Insurance Corporation. Coverage from Citizens is only on a depreciated value basis, and does not include additional living expenses.

With the lesser insurance coverage available, people will have to dig more deeply into their own pockets to pay for damages. This is almost certain to have indirect financial impacts. People are already having difficulty paying their mortgages. With all of the payments required under deductibles, and the possibility of being without a job and having no coverage for additional living expenses, even more folks will default on mortgages. This will make the plight of banks in the area even worse than they were before.

Long term, the prospect of multiple hurricanes hitting the area with little insurance coverage available would seem likely to depress real estate values. Thus, even homeowners who can make it through the immediate problems are likely to experience a loss when they sell their home. This will have a further adverse impact on banks.

I am a network admin for an insurance defense law firm in Mississippi which handled a large part of our state’s Katrina related insurance defense. People, often rightfully, get emotional about the way the large insurance concerns handle the aftermath of a massive disaster. It’s a numbers game for the insurers, and they are obviously in the business to make a profit. What I’ve found fascinating is the whole Scruggs debacle with severe corruption on the defense side of a large class action legal battle. When people are suffering, everyone wants to see aid (in this case, reconstruction aid) delivered as quickly as possible. However, the Scruggs incident shows exactly what the insurance companies fear and why much of the legal wrangling takes so long. Scruggs represented a large number of innocent clients, and their interests were severely hurt due to bad representation.

The chaos following a major natural disaster is rife for corruption. It attracts unscrupulous elements of all sorts, and we witnessed the misuse and sometimes embezzlement of government funds in the devastation following Katrina. For right or wrong, we will see the process of insurance settlements take a period of years in many cases. The government’s ability to provide large scale infrastructure renewal is very limited in the short term, too.

Many in the nation object to footing the tax bill for bailing out people who intentionally rebuild in disaster-prone areas. Some called for NOLA to be abandoned. If the storms are becoming more frequent, and if our coastal cities are subjected to cycles of destruction more often than every 10 or 20 years; I believe our system will passively cause the abandonment of high risk areas like New Orleans. Congress won’t vote to abandon or relocate NOLA until long after it has been effectively abandoned by our reconstruction processes working on a slower cyclical scale than the storms do. With 20 year (I don’t have exact figures at hand) cycles of destruction on the Mississippi Gulf Coast, the system functioned to rebuild the diverse interests. With 10 or even 5 years cycles of destruction, many elements of society won’t have the opportunity to exist in the high risk areas.

I would mark this post up 10 times if the software allowed.

Best wishes for eliminating 100% of the fraud in NOLA.

And what of the fraud in Iraq? What of the fraud getting us into Iraq? The frauds constantly committed BY the insurance companies with unscrupulous practices?

What of the fraud committed by abandoning insureds because they actually use the insurance?

Shush...

Cheers

But this seems beneficial to the rest of us as people will tend not to try to live where they ought not try to live.

When Uncle Sam chips in to pay for storm damage of people who live near rivers and coasts this amounts to more prudent people paying for the decisions of less prudent people. I hate it when that happens. The less of it the better.

"Let's not forget Gustav is not striking only the USA."

Thank you for that Jerome.

Its my one and only complaints about TOD is the fact that the discussions get too academic at times treating humanity as an afterthought.

Its not bad enough that I will demand my money back though ;-}

Pre-Katrina New Orleans provides numerous usefull comparisons to the greater U.S. economy of 2005. Many parts were ugly and decaying, but the shiny facade was intact and attractive... and the party beads were flying.

Today - with the asset-evaporated, credit-curdled, economic climate forcing the U.S. Treasury's sawing of load-bearing walls to open more "auction windows" - the U.S. economy has been layed bare of it's Bourbon Street.

Gustav itself - for all it's destructive bluster - might come to be known as the calm before the storm.

From all angles, we're in a precarious situation here.

Yep, the word on the street is that the Chinese are closing their discount window. Socialism works great until the lending stops. The time comes when we actually have to produce something someone will pay for -- other than paper.

First of all, NHC doesn't show much strengthening because of drier air aloft:

AT THE RISK OF SOUNDING LIKE A BROKEN RECORD...THE INTENSITY
FORECAST REMAINS PROBLEMATIC. ANALYSES FROM CIMSS AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN SHOWS THAT GUSTAV REMAINS IN 15 TO 20 KT OF
SOUTHERLY VERTICAL SHEAR....AND THE LARGE-SCALE MODELS FORECAST AT
LEAST SOME SOUTHERLY TO SOUTHWESTERLY SHEAR TO PERSIST UNTIL
LANDFALL. THAT...COMBINED WITH THE CURRENT RAGGED STORM STRUCTURE
AND THE MID-LEVEL DRY AIR TRYING TO WRAP AROUND THE STORM IN WATER
VAPOR IMAGERY...SUGGESTS ANY INTENSIFICATION SHOULD BE SLOW.
ADDITIONALLY..GUSTAV IS OVER A WARM EDDY IN THE LOOP CURRENT
NOW...AND SHOULD PASS OVER WATERS WITH LOWER OCEANIC HEAT CONTENT
BETWEEN NOW AND LANDFALL. THE GUIDANCE RESPONDS TO THESE FACTORS
BY FORECASTING MODEST STRENGTHENING DURING THE NEXT 12 TO 24
HR...WITH THE GFDL FORECASTING A PEAK INTENSITY OF 120 KT AND THE
OTHER MODELS ABOUT 110 KT. BASED ON THIS...THE INTENSITY FORECAST
WILL CALL FOR GUSTAV TO RE-INTENSIFY TO 115 KT IN 12 TO 24 HR...AND
MAKE LANDFALL ON THE NORTHERN GULF COAST AS A MAJOR HURRICANE.
GUSTAV SHOULD STEADILY WEAKEN AFTER LANDFALL.FORECAST POSITIONS AND MAX WINDS

INITIAL 31/1500Z 25.3N 86.0W 105 KT
12HR VT 01/0000Z 27.0N 87.7W 115 KT
24HR VT 01/1200Z 28.6N 89.7W 115 KT
36HR VT 02/0000Z 30.0N 91.5W 85 KT...INLAND
48HR VT 02/1200Z 31.1N 93.0W 50 KT...INLAND
72HR VT 03/1200Z 32.0N 94.5W 30 KT...INLAND
96HR VT 04/1200Z 32.0N 95.0W 25 KT...INLAND
120HR VT 05/1200Z 32.0N 95.9W 20 KT...INLAND REMNANT LOW

$$
FORECASTER BEVEN

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MIATCDAT2+shtml/311457.shtml

Katrina at this point was a category 5 hurricane, which mainly meant that it collected cubic miles of sea water which was the storm's powerful surge. This surge washed out infrastructure - Gulfport's casinos, Murphy Oil's refinery piping, New Orleans' floodwalls - even though the hurricane itself had moderated to a cat 3 at landfall.

Keep in mind, much of the Gulf infrastructure has been replaced/upgraded since Katrina. Properties in New Orleans have had rotten trees removed, doors and windows strengthened and roofs replaced; weak structures demolished and flood walls repaired. The drainage canals that allowed the surge to inundate the city have been sealed off and a new pumping system installed. Much of the petro infrastructure damaged by Katrina has been replaced in the meantime.

Hurricane Rita was another cat 5 storm that followed a similar track to Katrina that did little additional damage to the New Orleans. Damage was limited to the Texas and western Louisiana coast, where structures were either very close to the water or poorly designed and constructed.

The petro industry designs for storms in Louisiana, like they design for earthquakes in southern California. A big problem is the age of equipment:

http://www.simmonsco-intl.com/files/OTC%202008.pdf

The new stuff should hold up just fine in this particular storm ... and Hew Orleans, too!

Unfortunately, the long range forecast (not too accurate, however) has Hanna entering the Gulf via the Florida Straights by the middle of the week:

http://www.hpc.ncep.noaa.gov/medr/9mh.gif

Recently, storms that enter the gulf via the Straights tend to turn into cat 5's.

Keep in mind, much of the Gulf infrastructure has been replaced/upgraded since Katrina.

This is part of why I think this won't be as bad as Katrina. The storm itself may be, and it may cause worse damage. But other things combined to make Katrina stand out. I mean, we have had really bad hurricanes in recent years, but no other hurricane has had that level of fatalities since the early 1900's.

I'm sure that procedures have been tightened, and that any number of identified problems have been well documented, action plans written, etc.

But do you honestly think that since 2005 there has been massive investment in actual physical infrastructure? And if so, obviously depending on the storm itself, do you think that this newly improved infrastructure will be able to withstand it?

Personally, I bet this storm is likely to reveal just how much wasn't repaired/improved after Katrina/Rita. Maybe we won't find out, which will be a blessing for many.

I have actually commented a few times that another direct hit by a major storm within just a few years of Katrina might be the end of New Orleans as a major city. But the kind of death toll that Katrina caused is a very rare occurence. The levees were a major identified concern prior to Katrina. In fact, I did think Katrina was going to be pretty bad, and commented to my wife before it hit that it may very well wipe out New Orleans. But the worst of the levees have been patched up, and people are heeding the call to evacuate.

I am not downplaying the storm, just saying that Katrinas are exceedingly rare.

But do you honestly think that since 2005 there has been massive investment in actual physical infrastructure? And if so, obviously depending on the storm itself, do you think that this newly improved infrastructure will be able to withstand it?

Depends ... I've been to New Orleans several times before and after Katrina/Rita (My brother owns a house there). People in New Orleans with means can afford insurance. Insurance allowed home and business owners to not only repair direct damage but to make improvements. The structures of people with means tended to be stronger and better located, above sea level, for instance. The wealthy neighborhoods did not flood nor did they sustain much in the way of wind damage. More damage was done by fires that were difficult fo fight because of no pressure in hydrants or fire department out of service.

Persons without means or in neighborhoods that were well below sea level such as Lakewood in NO or in ares east of the city such as St. Bernard Parish, were wiped out. The cheaper, newer suburban- style structures were ruined. Infrastructure improvement here would be limited to replacement, in that light, any infrastructure replaced may or may not be sturdy enough to withstand a storm.

The repairs to the industrial infrastructure have been substantial, where essential. New Orleans area industrial infrastructure is massive; oil terminals, piers, refineries, chemical plants, power stations, pipelined, railroads, canals and locks, warehouses ... because of a built-in redundancy, much of these facilities were ready to operate in a short period of time after Katrina. Nevertheless, there were large problems with pipelines and electric power availability. Large areas of south La and Mississippi were without power for months. This included refineries. Storm currents damaged pipelines under shallow water that took a long time to repair. Like the flood walls, the repaired sections are as good as new and should withstand anything other than the direct hit of the most powerful storm.

As for the older sections adjacent to the repaired sections? ???? ;)

I think its fair to say that the older, shallower platforms and support structures are in poor condition due to neglect. Many of these items are at the end of their service lives and it would be uneconomical to improve them. I cannot judge whether this is wise ... Other facilities, such as the refinery at Chalmette, which received a direct hit from Katrina is very much in service and has been - as far as I can tell - been the subject of continuous improvement. Power must still be supplied to the plant and fuel to process, obviously.

In my opinion, the problem with repair to the city and it's support structures is more a matter of concept than investment. the MRGO canal is still ready to direct trillions of gallons of ocean water into the heart of New Orleans and St. Bernard parish. There has been more than enough time to remove the shippers who use that canal and close it. The basic design approach hasn't really changed since the 19th century; to fight the water rather than accomodate it. The fight approach is familiar, but it is expensive and requires the entire area to be equally defended; any leak or rupture anywhere can inundate the whole. The approach is ignorant, in my opinion; water has been in the southern gulf for millenia and to predend it can be kept out at all times is delusional.

Part of this has to do with the 'dialog' between the 'environmentalists' and the business people who run things. That's a characteristic of the 'peak oil' problem, isn't it? Denial...

1:40 AM from Nationl Hurricane Center;

WTNT42 KNHC 010257
TCDAT2
HURRICANE GUSTAV DISCUSSION NUMBER 30
NWS TPC/NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER MIAMI FL AL072008
1100 PM EDT SUN AUG 31 2008

THE SATELLITE PRESENTATION OF GUSTAV BECAME MORE SYMMETRIC EARLIER
IN THE EVENING AND WAS GIVING THE IMPRESSION OF INCREASING
ORGANIZATION. OVER THE PAST HOUR OR SO...HOWEVER...THERE HAS BEEN
SLIGHT WARMING OF THE CORE CONVECTION IN THE EASTERN SEMICIRCLE.
THE CENTRAL PRESSURE...WHICH HAD BEEN FALLING...SEEMS TO HAVE
STABILIZED WITH THE MOST RECENT ESTIMATE BEING 954 MB. FLIGHT LEVEL
AND SFMR DATA INDICATE THAT THE MAXIMUM SURFACE WINDS ARE STILL
AROUND 100 KT...WITH A PEAK SMFR WIND OF 100 KT JUST OBSERVED A FEW
MINUTES AGO...AND PEAK FLIGHT LEVEL WINDS OF 114 KT. THE SFMR DATA
ALSO INDICATE THAT THE HURRICANE FORCE WINDS HAVE EXPANDED...
SPREADING OUT THE PRESSURE GRADIENT OVER A LARGER AREA. DROPSONDE
DATA FROM THE NOAA G-IV JET AIRCRAFT ALSO SHOW SOME DRIER AIR
BETWEEN 300 AND 500 MB WORKING ITS WAY TOWARD THE CENTER OF GUSTAV
FROM THE SOUTH. THESE DATA SUGGEST THAT THE LANDFALL INTENSITY OF
GUSTAV WILL LIKELY BE NOT VERY DIFFERENT FROM ITS CURRENT CATEGORY
THREE STRENGTH. NONE OF THE AVAILABLE OBJECTIVE AIDS...THE
GFDL...HWRF...SHIPS...AND LGEM SHOW MUCH CHANGE IN THE REMAINING
TIME GUSTAV HAS OVER WATER.

It seems as if Gustav will be a moderate hurricane. There should be minimal damage.

It also appears Hanna is going to turn to the north parallel to the Florida east coast and make landfall on the Georgia-South Carolina border.

http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at3+shtml/025514.shtml?5day#con...

That is really out of date now. It's dated 11pm and the data it's based on is older than that. Gustav has strengthened and organized a lot since then. There's good eye, and it's shrinking quickly. (Not a good thing.)

And the track is east of the predicted. Any wobble now can make a big difference in where it comes ashore, but at the moment, it's looking a lot worse for New Orleans than it did when that forecast came out.

And another update just came out. Gustav is slowing quite a bit. Which could help it intensify.

And it really is east of where it was predicted to be.

Dear Leanan,

where do you get your latest data from?

See my blog. URL is in my profile. I put all the links I am following there. :-)

The high points...the NHC just came out with another update. And CNN is doing wall-to-wall coverage.

Been there, done that. Thx.

Here's a radar image.

Radar has been where it's at for the last couple of hours, because the satellite was in eclipse. Satellite is just getting back now.

You have some great links there. Especially the forums. Really appreciated.

thanks for the links via your blog. that easternuswx forum is hopping -- several posts/minute.

What I think is really of interest is that both of them are the same size at roughly the same spot in the Gulf. The last tracking point for Gustav is 86W 24.5N and Cat-3. The similar tracking point for Katrina was also Cat 3. I compared the archived Katrina track on Weather Underground to the one for Gustav. The difference with Gustav though is that it became a Cat 4 before making it's first landfall, Katrina was only Cat 1 when it passed over the tip of Florida. I don't know if that means anything or not but for comparison purposes, this one was much bigger sooner.

That's a useful comment! Are you sure about this ?!?

Yes I am positive, here are the pictures.

My God, the Gustav tropical storm path prediction goes up the Mississippi, right into the region that got flooded last month.

Also, look at the sea surface temperatures in the gulf of mexico. They're up, which means stronger hurricanes. It's about 30C which was about what it was before Katrina.