![]() | Hurricane Ike and Oil Refineries/Infrastructure Thread #2 (9/10 16:30 EDT) | The Oil Drum | DrumBeat: September 11, 2008 | ![]() |
206 comments on Hurricane Ike and Oil Refineries/Infrastructure Damage Models Thread #3 (21:00 EDT 9/11)
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
206 comments on Hurricane Ike and Oil Refineries/Infrastructure Damage Models Thread #3 (21:00 EDT 9/11)
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Unique Times -- and the Future
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Friday 27th November 2009
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.”
—Richard Feynman
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Has it not become blatantly obvious that it is the US gummint that is behind this price drop? We now have proof of how the US manipulated the dollar rise as well as the crash of gold and silver. They have done the same for oil.
The dollar has risen dramatically against the horrible fundamentals of this currency, just as gold and silver have fallen 45% against rampant inflation. Now we have oil plummeting against improving fundamentals. This will continue until election day. And then . . . .Oh Boy!
It's time to wake up and see financial fascism for what it is. There are no more free markets, only manipulated markets. But not to worry, this whole hollowed out economy will soon come crashing down. As Rick Santelli put this AM, "This economy is a room full of mousetraps into which a couple golf balls have been tossed. Do you really think the Fed can catch them all?"
Well, not really blatantly obvious. If they had so much power to do this, it never would have hit $150 in the first place.
Lehman is a big energy trader, and they're exploding as we speak. That would be my first guess. People getting in front of the demise. Other energy hedge funds are rumoured to be blowing up as well, creating additional downward pressure.
And, it always goes down in September.
If you believe the government can make it go down, then you must be able to equally believe speculators can make it go up.
I'm in now way saying you are wrong. Just that my opinion, while shifting slightly towards yours, is still different.
Thanks for the reply.
I totally concur with this. Governments have intervened in currency markets for decades. This I know for a fact because at Salomon (and Lehman ) we had a 'batline' directly to the Fed on the currency desk.
But oil is a different story. First of all, americans don't buy oil. They buy gasoline, which is rocketing today. This oil sell-off of past month is 70%+ about deleveraging and firms HAVING to get out of postions (be they energy or frozen shrimp futures), 25% about expected much slower economy and 5% supporting dollar and that whole 'election' line of thinking.
But that might change soon if Ike continues on this track...even 'money' can't produce gasoline. Especially money....
We could argue around the edges of your handicapping, but my numbers would be pretty close to yours.
The one thing I'd point out is that the timing and extent of the deleveraging is heavily influenced by recent gov't actions. So I'd boost the intervention weighting because of that.
Okay, so what will your argument be when the price goes below the marginal barrel? In my less than humble opinion it is the Feds who started this short squeeze in oil and are maintaining the downward pressure. A little bit of leverage in derivatives goes a hell of a long way. Moreover, we have no idea what agreements were made with other NOCs. There's a strong rumor going around that the Saudis are playing ball because they're terrified of Obama getting elected.
When the price suddenly snaps back we will have our answer but most people will either cry manipulators or supply/demand. Problem is, gov't data is no longer credible. All trust is being lost in these massive interventions. As Paul Volker stated on 9/5, "the markets are broken."
The price of both oil and natural gas ARE below the marginal barrel. For natural gas, there is so much fixed cost associated with drilling the well, that to shut-in production as a 'timing' event costs more than just taking a small loss. Though at these prices it will reduce drilling. Same holds for oil especially for offshore where fixed costs are high - onshore there does exist some ability to shut in production. OPEC is acting according to Hotelling Theory.
Does not compute. The last $20-$30 rise in crude was due to the momo players piling on without understanding what they were doing. The combination of credit crisis, deleveraging and oil retracement has exacerbated move in oil. IF the feds were playing the game of 'keeping things intact until election', why wouldnt they sell gasoline and diesel futures, which is what 'voters' care about? The open interest in crude oil futures (as of 3 days ago) has been declining, NOT rising - if fundamentals pointed to higher prices and speculators and investors were BUYING crude and government was 'selling' to keep price down, you would see an explosion of open interest. You do not.
I like Volker and happen to agree. But they take a long time to officially break. I wonder if he understands the second law...
Probably because they know they'd break the backs of too many US refiners. By hitting oil they hit a world and not local market.
You miss my point that they don't have to use oil to manipulate the price. As with currency, you use the producers of currency. Without the cooperation of major central banks, the Feds can't manipulate the dollar. In this case it was mainly Bank of China. The significance of the Saudis and OPEC is that they don't sell their oil in US market, so getting them to drop price/increase supply a bit doesn't hurt them as much. Then it produces a knock-on effect in western markets. Plus, you are well aware of the recent massive disinformation campaign the Saudis/OPEC have engaged in. Ask yourself what was the reason for that.
I thought the marginal barrel was closer to $80 than more than $100, assuming you don't mean the crazy marginal bbl.
Much of the reduction in oil price is due to the lowering of risk premium.
Finally the administration is doing the right thing, preventing Israel from launching an attack on Iran.
This also explains some of the strengthening of the dollar.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1019989.html
I hope this is not disinformation - standard practise when you are preparing for a strike is to play the possibility down.
If it were an American strike the Israeli's would not need bunker busters.
There was a report (cannot locate the URL) that the Georgian's were hosting Israeli reconnaissance drones. These were purported to be very advanced with a low radar signature and were being used to identify / monitor events in Iran. The conflict in Georgia ended this activity.
I'm quite relieved that Putin has laid down some clear markers to caution the Bush presidency.
Sending bombers to Venezuela shows that military adventurism won't be tolerated there either.
Jeez, I sound like a commie lefty!
I was always about as right wing as they get, but we clearly have a Mafia let loose now, and they will stop at nothing.
It would be interesting to know how many others have given up the habits of a lifetime as they recognise the scams going on.
In some ways this is like the fall of communism, when the idea became clearly bankrupt, as much of the patterns of capitalism have been fatally corrupted, and it would be dishonest of me not to recognise the severity of the flaws which are wrecking destruction.
Still, I suppose astute commentators as diverse as Adams and Jefferson recognised these dangers centuries ago.
Actually the report mentioned that the two air bases the Russians destroyed were intended to launch the attack.
This is the Debka link, but it was widely published outside the US
http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5559
Well one report (picked up by others but which a lot of people disagreed with) suggested the bases would be used to launch the attack). The reports about drones - for whatever purpose, were more widespread.
I have to agree with that. Plus if the Executive Branch were doing this, presumably they would be taking Oil up and not down. One of McCain's winning points with Joe Sixpack is Domestic drilling - in order to continue cheaply fuelling the pick-up truck & SUV. Climbing Crude would reinforce the urgency of drilling and drilling quickly.
Unless the Admin is doing this to help Obama ;-)
IMO it is pretty blatant. The premium to insure USA guv debt just rose to an all time record the other day-you wouldn't expect any currency to strengthen as the country's debt is considered riskier. I guess unless we see widespread shortages of product with declining prices not everyone will be convinced (maybe not even then, if gold and silver is any example).
I guess after Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac there is nothing the business class will not allow the government to distort to protect their larger interest in control.
Back in the days of the civil rights protests, blacks organized boycotts of mass transit lines to protest segregated seating. Though they were key customers of these companies and the boycotts hurt, they did not succeed. Presumably the businessmen who owned the transit lines were willing to bleed in the short run rather than face the prospect of operating in a South without a caste system.
Now just to show the South in a more positive light while reinforcing the social power of American business, contrast this with what happened in Houston. When the business elite learned that a campaign of civil disobediance was being organized to break segregation at the lunch counters in the downtown department stores, it moved to disarm the conflict. Oveta Culp Hobby, who served in Eisenhower's cabinet, owned the Houston Post, and represented an ostensibly progressive image that Houston aggressively cultivated, spearheaded an effort to keep news of the protests out of all Houston media. Meanwhile the businessmen negotiated with each other to terminate Jim Crow. Their fear was not the protestors, but the possible actions of white racists - the Frankenstein monster they had created and exploited for generations. Houston went from Jim Crow to integration in a smoke-filled room. It could hardly have presented itself as Space City, home of the future, otherwise.
Short-term control versus long-term survival. That is the choice facing our owners, and the decision could still go either way.
Fascinating! Never knew that about Houston - can you recommend a good source that goes into greater detail?
Houston's choice on Jim Crow may indicate that when the problems of peak oil and environmental catastrophe hits that those industries and cities most tied to high-tech global capitalism will be most willing to see government step in to solve problems in a big way. So, we would expect that purely old-line industrial and nationally-based industries and corporations will be most opposed to government intervention.
A quick google found this. You might contact the author and ask for her sources.
The currency is strengthening because the amount in circulation is down. There is a big shortage of cash out there. And since the government+Fed is refusing to print, treasury borrowing is crowding out everyone else.
It is ironic, but if at this point only the Sovereign wealth funds have money and lots of it. They can buy anything they choose - and are choosing to buy nothing but treasuries.
If the Fed is to avoid Great Depression II they must lower rates now and by a good margin. IMO further significant lowering of rates is unlikely - because someone wants to take the dollar up (I can speculate on the reasons - but shall refrain from doing so)
The irony is that the one thing the US can do is create money and is choosing to destroy it. The US economy is basically a service economy (to quote Leanan - doing each others laundry) and the economy needs money to function, because people like to get paid in cash for their services.
Are we going to a barter system as the depression hits :-)
I agree with Research 24, 'financial fascism' is a good term for the level of manipulation going on here. I don't think the US market, vis-a-vis the world market, is an explanation for a 30% drop in crude futures at this historical juncture. Nor should one of the most troubled currencies in the world be on the rise given the massive national debt, both old and newly acquired this week. Hedge funds dumps (with their backs to the wall) makes some sense. But I would also note we've seen this pattern before the election. It is ironic that a recent article discussed the inability to monitor speculation--right, but they aren't thinking about the trillions of black fund dollars that I am...