![]() | Lehman: more socialising the losses of the rich | The Oil Drum | Hurricane Ike, Energy Infrastructure, Refineries and Damage Models Landfall Thread (Updated 9/13 18:00 EDT) | ![]() |
128 comments on DrumBeat: September 14, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
128 comments on DrumBeat: September 14, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
- What "Lower Consumption" Means
- Tricking and Treating the Future
- Meeting Energy Decline Part-Way - Potatoes?
TOD:Europe
- EROWI - energy return of water invested
- An interview with Stoneleigh - the case for deflation
- The Future of European Transport: iTREN-2030
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Saturday 7th November 2009
- The Bullroarer - Friday 30th October 2009
- Details of Solar Flagships Released
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”
—Albert Einstein
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Twist, Twist. I disagree she is talking "Conventional Reserves" and her comments are at best marginally correct. With an International LNG market price currently near 3 times the current MCF price in the U.S.(trades more on a BTU equivalence. 6:1) the price of U.S. natty is indeed being suppressed by production. Recovery costs in shale are higher true but production costs still keep the BTU equivalent price well below that of oil. I find the argument to use natty as a liquid fuel replacement especially in trucks and local, state and governmental fleets as a very sound policy. The use reduction of natty for home heating and electricity generation should be a targetted goal. Bring on the heat pumps, wind mills and nukes. Choke down the flow of dollars out of the the country for oil we are bankrupting ourselves at an alarming rate. Inspite of so many painting this as another get rich scheme by Mr. Pickens I find the arguments well based on logic. You Go Boone!
It is, IMHO, possible to conserve NG faster than it depletes. 22% of USA electrical generation from wind will *NOT* displace the 22% produced by NG, as claimed by Mr. Pickens. Time of day, seasonal demands (summer peak for most US electrical demand, summer minimum for wind) will, SWAG, displace slightly more coal than NG at these levels (absent pumped storage).
OTOH, increased insulation, better windows, tankless gas hot water heaters, solar water heaters and perhaps even wind driven ammonia production will save significant NG. Greater industrial efficiency will save even more.
Wind should be PART of a larger strategy for reduced NG use. Devoting some NG for specialty transportation (city buses, airport shuttles, garbage trucks, etc.) is a good strategy IMHO.
Fewer VMT (vehicle miles traveled) in smaller cars/SUVs is a better strategy than converting them to NG.
T Boone Pickens is NOT in favor of anything that he cannot make money off of. That much was crystal clear in a conference call with his staff.
Best Hopes for Better Plans than the Pickens Plan,
Alan
Ah, you have hit the nail squarely upon the head. Sure, the Pickens/McClendon plan has a little to do with using less natural gas, but it has much more to do with using more natural gas.
One thing became apparent to me Sir Alan of the BE, and this has been the underlying theme through much of the TOD comments since I've been participating (I've actually been on longer than my present handle). That is, we are having the discussion at all.
This may seem intuitively obvious to most whom post on this site, but if we take a moment to reflect, we are having discussions our parents would think absurd only some 40 years ago. Of course I ponder on this point on a daily basis, but I believe it deserves repeating in a larger audience.
Even though I go about my everyday job such as flying around in a helicopter in the BC mountains defining run of river hydro electric developments, the scale of our challenges still humbles me.
And in case you are interested, we were putting clear engineering conceptual design to run of river hydro electric developments in the same area where most of the 2010 Olympics will be conducted. Its not every day you get to fly around in the beautiful mountain terrain on a perfectly clear September day where most would pay 100's of dollars while you are getting paid $150/hr. Also, we are sensitive to the environmental and long term impacts and are doing all we can at the front end.
I don't want to really string transmission lines everywhere, but if someone can come up with a better use of the laws of physics, I would be most pleased to hear it.
"......we are having discussions our parents would think absurd only some 40 years ago."
now hold on there just a minute....... my parents were of the great depression and ww2, they new about shortages, they new about the need to conserve resources, what they would think absurd is the waste .
I have very fond memories of flying between Kitimat and Kemano in an Alcan helicopter to inspect a surplus power plant. Another stop to inspect the transmission towers.
Best Hopes for Once in a Lifetime Experiences,
Alan
PS: A some point (today ?) Power electronics will become cheap enough to justify using HV DC Lite transmission towers with two (or even one, ground return) wires instead of three.
Lower cost transmission (higher $ on either end) with much less obtrusive poles.
What MW are you looking at ? 49 MW is limit for "good hydro" in BC I think ?
Sorry, BC, but I completely disagree.
We are having exactly the same discussions my parents had 40 years ago. Well, maybe more like 35 years ago.
They had these same discussions back in the '70s, during the first oil crisis. The '70s oil crisis was only partly political. The reason OPEC was able to cut us off was because of peak oil USA, ca. 1970.
Many of our current mass transit systems were built because of the '70s energy crisis. Much of our research into alternative energy had its roots then, too. The "new" technology stories so beloved by technocopians were news back then, too - oil from algae, solar from space, nuclear fusion, etc.
In the '70s, my parents thought we would run out of oil in 40 years, and it was a fairly common belief, even taught in many schools. Limits to Growth was written in 1972, and even though my parents were conservative Nixon voters, they thought the book was correct. They truly believed that their children would grow up in a much poorer world - one where meat and personal cars were a luxury beyond the means of ordinary people.
But...it didn't work out that way. Yet. The oil crisis turned out to be temporary, soon we were "drowning in oil," and people forgot.
IMO, this is a big reason it's so difficult to get people to pay attention. They've gone through it before, nothing really happened, so why is it different this time?
"They've gone through it before, nothing really happened, so why is it different this time?"
i think humans share at least one of the pavlovian dog's genes.
If things are as you say, then why does the Pickens/McClendon plan need massive government subsidies to make it happen? Why have they unleashed a $58+ million advertising campaign to persuade the public and policy makers of the need for these subsidies?
One needs to remember the Pickens/McClendon plan is a two-part plan:
Part 1--22% of U.S. electricity is currently generated using natural gas. Part 1 entails using wind power to replace the electricity that is currently generated using natural gas.
Part 2--Once the natural gas that is currently being used to generate electricity is freed up, use that natural gas as a transport fuel.
Why can't I support Part 1 without supporting Part 2? This is deja vu of Bush's Manichean world construct: "You're either with us or against us."
To begin with, I, along with others such as Bonnie Tatom of the Oregon Public Utilities Commission, are skeptical of these reports of an abundance of natural gas:
You have to remember this perception that we are "awash in gas" is coming from one place, namely the $58+ million Pickens/McClendon media blitz:
Of course McClendon is the chairman of American Clean Skies Foundation.
The use of natural gas for a transport fuel would also affect other uses of natural gas, as was not lost on this farmer who expressed his concerns during a town hall meeting in a small community in Iowa:
Even though I am pretty much sold on Part 1 of the Pickens/McClendon plan, I am far from being sold on Part 2.
But even then, if they can bring Part 2 about without massive tax-payer subsidies they are lobbying for, I say "Go for it!"
"Meanwhile, Canada's National Energy Board says consumers in the Northwest can expect to see more of the Canadian supplies they rely on diverted to help extract oil from tar sands in Alberta."
One interesting aspect of the Alaska pipeline debate in the American mass media is that they seemed to have missed the point that most if not all of that natural gas will be intercepted at the Alberta oilsands. SAGD (steam-assisted gravity drainage) is not going away, nor NG-fired electrical generation. How many Americans are aware that Alaska will not save them?
I don't know the pipeline business very well Calgary, but that was my take on it. The Alaskan pipeline is to route through northern Alberta. Ummm, just what is in northern Alberta??? The Edmonton Oilers? No, of course not, the oil sands and they use prodigious amounts of natural gas and that consumption is expected to increase with production - duh!!
Is the all the talk of the N.A. gas reserve just really turning into a game of three card Monte?
Bingo DS, and look up the Puget Sound Energy Resource Allocation Plan (IIRC) on their site and have a look at their projections for increase NG generation to meet their forecast.
I think the WECC should be considered in the whole, and it will soon become apparent that the expected energy supply will not be available. The WECC affects western N.A.
I wrote Richard Heinberg on this previously and he didn't take me up on it. Since he lives in the region, maybe he will have his interest piqued. Whether it's Oregon PUC, PSE, or BC Hydro, the region could move from an energy supplier to an energy purchaser (net), and one has to ask the question, "Just where will it come from?"
My understanding of likely NG supply, which comes primarily from readin TOD's Gail the Actuary, is that it will be reasonably available for perhaps another decade or two. Displacing NG consumption for baseline power by wind (or solar, or even nuclear) is a good thing. IMHO the best use for NG is as a backup for time variable sources, such as wind, and solar. We should be discouraging uses with poor thermodynamic efficiency, such as space heating, and using NG to dry crops etc. If we can convert some currently diesel powered mobile uses, such as trucking, buses, and construction equipment to NG instead of diesel, that would be a plus for the short-term. We need to keep in mind, that the most critical part of the petroleum based fuel demand is for diesel. Many of these same diesel uses, would also be natural places for hyrid electric as well.
I am not really concerned with whether T Boone stands to make money from his plan. The important thing is to start making progress against the twin problems of oil import dependence, and global warming emmisions. It is worth paying some subsidies, if they they will speed the process.
He might be mistaken in his assessment of Natural gas supplies, but at least he is trying to do something, and building generating equipment which is not fossil fuel.
It is usually a bad idea to make the best the enemy of the good, and none of us know completely how things will pan out.