I was under the impression that the hydrogen storage (via fuel cell, or compressed air) concept wasn't very efficient? My understanding is based on that thread "The Hydrogen Economy" on this site.

Like the author here suggests, shifting demand or pairing supply/demand locations based on their production/demand data seems like the most efficient way of reducing problems with peaks. Though obviously it can't be entirely relied on.

I really don't know how the electrical grid works, but it seems obvious that dulling the blades edge on production spikes means more diversity. So distribution and various sources ie. solar, wind, geothermal, etc.

My question is, is it more or less efficient to have large solar/wind/etc installations at prime locations and then transmitting that electricity as required, or would small-medium sized installations distributed and providing power locally (for the most part) be more efficient? You must take into account the "backup" situation described above, because one large centralized installation would have a much greater fluctuation in production than a distributed network of smaller installations.

(Horray for my first post!)

I was under the impression that the hydrogen storage (via fuel cell, or compressed air) concept wasn't very efficient?

Correct - but it's a storage method. I wish that I could find it again - but there was a prof in the UK who had a nice setup - wind and PV generation as well as hydro-electric. Now when he had spare energy he charged the batteries (hours of energy storage) and when they were full he pumped water up into the pond (a day or two of storage) and if that was full then hydrogen was created and stored (a week or so of energy).

Now hydrogen does tend to leak out of containers, and it is inefficient creating, storing and then converting it back into energy - but if you've got energy to waste then it's a viable option.

What's nice about being grid intertied is that someone out there will be able to use the energy.

It would be nice if a good energy storage scheme (ultra-capacitors, flywheels, batteries, whatever) came online to smooth out energy from turbines and PV.

But then I hold strongly that we need to pitch the toys and dump the crap. Freezers don't need energy 24x7 and fridges can mostly survive without it. We could also do without fridges. Hot water heaters can easily get by with electricity during only part of the day (but then do we really NEED hot water?) - but energy for cooking is the rub. It's an issue with our food storage. We store a fair bit of food - but we have far more food than fuel to cook it with. We've tried solar cookers and white gas stoves are thirsty beasts and a lot more expensive than an electric range.

You make a few very strong points, but this point needs to be made: cooks use gas-fired ranges because of the very fine and fast temperature control these ranges offer - it is hard to cook a simple omelette on an electric range: you need a very hot plate to go down to a simmer very fast -
This may seem a frivolous argument, but I don't think it is. I think the single most important thing we humans do is to prepare food for each other and eat it together. Cooking is the only art that produces more artists than music.
It is obvious that we need to become independent of fossil fuels, but we do need usable temperature controls in order to do even the most simple of cooking. Bread is best baked in a very slowly cooling oven, for example: a refractory brick hemisphere heated by a charcoal fire, the cinders of which are removed before placing the loaves in the oven. Steak takes two minutes a side on a hot fire. Potatoes need 20 minutes in (slowly) cooking water, 25 minutes steamed.
Making a meal starts with the ingredients, but you need rather precise control of the energy applied to your ingredients, if you want to put something edible on the table.
There are quite efficient and well designed ranges for gas, wood and coal. Coal is a nightmare, gas burns clean but is finite, wood could be renewable if we had lower population. Prospects look dire.
But then, how long will tv-dinners last in post peak times?

it is hard to cook a simple omelette on an electric range: you need a very hot plate to go down to a simmer very fast -

"Simmer"??? what are you doing to those eggs? Plain omelette should take 30 to 45 seconds on high heat if cooking on an electric burner from butter in to eggs out, no change in temp. req'd, then onto a heated plate and serve. If you Simmer you are on the road to chewiness, a bad place to go in this case :-(

Never more than 3 eggs, if you need more than that make another omelette.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpIndUafTJU

What CAN'T you learn on TOD?

your description is much better than mine, but essentially it is the same process.
I heat the pan with oil or butter on a big flame, throw in the lightly beaten eggs, turn the heat very low, sculpt the omelette, season and serve within a minute of the eggs having hit the pan. Yum!

Just my 2 cents, energy used for cooking is nothing compared to everything else. I drive a propane powered car and I can burn up full tank in 3.5 hours. That same tank could last me 6 months for cooking.

More for emergencies, but one of these puppies allows you to use small pieces of wood and twigs to produce a very effective cooking appliance.

http://www.woodgas-stove.com/

I have one, and the claimed outputs (3Kw) are correct !

Bill

I agree on hydrogen storage; it has a quite low round-trip efficiency. Demandshifting and long distance transmission are the low hanging fruit. When it comes to storage, there are many other technologies for storing electricity which outperform hydrogen. Most efficienct are flywheels (Beacon Power has just commissioned a plant to provide frequency regulation to the NY grid using this technolofy), and then utility scale batteries... NaS batteries have been used for years in Japan and are now being installed experimentally in the US, while Vanadium Redox batteries are also making inroads and scale up very well.

I've written more extensively about how to integrate renewables into the grid here

As to Large scale wind farms vs distributed, larege scale is currently favored by the production tax credit. The economies of scale are also an advantage, but this may be trumped in the near future by lack of adequate transmission... small scale is more expensive, but it we can do a lot more distributed generation as we build out the transmission we need.

Small scale installations have the advantage of being cheaper and higher volume. These two properties make a product more likely to be caught by the river of mass production, mass marketing, and mass competition.

I don't know why windmills costs so much damn money, when I've seen dozens of designs that were built from scrap, old hard drives, etc, that were dirt cheap. If someone comes up with a way to mass produce a 1KW wind turbine and energy storage system that pays for itself in under 3 years, it will sell like hotcakes.

It's pretty difficult to build a residential wind turbine which works at any reasonable efficiency.

One big point is do NOT attach one to your house, unless you have a proper survey done.
The vibrations from them can do serious to the structure, and can also cause a lot of disturbance.

Far better is a stand alone turbine, for two reasons: they obviously avoid the structural problems mentioned above and the further they are from the house the less disturbance, but they can also be built higher.
Wind has a surface effect, so the higher the better, as you get a lot more power.
They don't build those 80 meter high towers for the fun of it - they are far more efficient.

Some of those roof-top jobs get as little as 4% or so of rated power on average.

Home-built wind can work out in rural areas, where you can put a dedicated wind turbine at a good height and distance from your house, and particularly where grid electricity is not available.
Backup will still cost you a lot of money though.

So first ask yourself an obvious question, which surprisingly many do not seem to ask:'Is it consistently windy where I live?'

Hydrogen production/storage/use may be economically competative using the usual electricity generating tech at ~20-30% efficiency provided the wind power is cheap enough (class 5 resources?) since it could be offered as competition to peaker plants that are at ~15-30+c/kWh based on what I've read. Granted, for the time being programs to encourage efficiency increases in order to not use that electricity in the first place are far cheaper, so that's probably where we'll start, but it's interesting IMO looking at the huge difference between peaker and baseload rates.