59 comments on Day 3 at the ASPO-USA meeting
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59 comments on Day 3 at the ASPO-USA meeting
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GAIA Host Collective
The niche for PodCars is highly repetitive urban transport. Based on riders per day, the elevator is the most successful form of public transportation. PodCars are just horizontal-elevators.
Your comments about safety are salient. Getting better at surviving crash tests and speed governors is improving know-HOW. Changing know-WHAT, such as Morgantown's system preempts the need to survive crashs by not having them. It began operation in 1975 and has delivered 110 million injury-free passenger miles.
You can sleep in the PodCars without worry of being mugged or crashing so there is no need for sleep detectors.
We will not survive if we do not adapt. Our wasteful use of oil is coming to an end. Must of that waste is caused by moving a ton to move a person. We can have mobility without nearly as much waste.
There is a study by the Center for Housing Policy that shows how increasing public transportation 20% will give working families an additional $2,000 in disposable income. If you have not noticed, the mortgage crisis is extending into a general financial collapse. If everyone had a extra $2,000 it might keep most mortgages current.
More of what is not working will not work. No matter how much you want to go back to the "good old days" we cannot. We with either adapt or die.
BillJames,
I'm really clear about the value of trains and trolleys, since they can move large quantities of people very efficiently at the price of flexibility. On the other end of the spectrum, I understand the value of cars, which allow maximum flexibility at the cost of efficiency.
PodCars, to me, inhabit the middle ground and I don't see the value yet.
I don't need to be convinced of the value of public transportation, of that I'm already convinced.
What I don't see is where the podcar fits -- it seems to me like too much infrastructure and not enough flexibility or volume.
Thoughts?
This is a wonderful question.
With Peak Oil, we are becoming energy constrained. We have to do more with less. Good stewardship should have been encouraging us to do so all along and we would not be facing Peak Oil and Global Warming, both civilization killers.
Long-haul freight rail provides a good model. CSX’s television commercial notes they “move a ton a freight 423 miles on a gallon of fuel.” Traveling on rails provides efficient rolling. Controlling rights of way long-haul freight rail does not start-stop, as a car must, at every intersection.
Passenger rail has the same rolling efficiency but must stop at every station. As a result of multiple start-stops, power must be applied to re-build kinetic energy. Passenger trains move about 3 tons of train for each passenger. According to DOE energy use by mode is:
PodCars operate on overhead and do not compete with current congestion. They are personal transport so they do not need to stop at every station. Ultra-light weight, PodCars require much less power to build kinetic energy. Energy required is so low that solar collectors 6-foot wide mounted over the rails gather 5,000 to 12,000 vehicle-miles of power per mile of rail per day.
We value time and quality. According to the Center for Housing Policy using current public transportation approximately doubles the time required to commute. This is a terrible tax on time. A half hour commute in a car becomes an hour on public transport.
Because of higher value and less time required, automobiles captured 97% market share of trips in the US and 80% of trips in Europe. We want and need on-demand personal mobility. Cars are the right answer they are just the wrong mass and randomness of behavior.
Your volume question is anwsered by cars. Cars or Pods moving 3 seconds apart per lane provide about 4,800 seats per hour (1.5 seconds like in rush hour, doubles this). A bus with 50 seats moving 5 minutes apart provide 600 seats per hour. Trains moving 10 minutes apart provide 1,200 seats per hour. PodCars can have multiple rails in the same right of way.
Based on riders per day, the elevator is the most successful form of public transportation; again it is on-demand mostly personal mobility. PodCars are just a network of Horizontal-Elevators.
Building these networks, like building the Internet, will require time, money and labor. Energy, time, safety and pollution savings will pay for the networks. Energy savings are 5 to 10 times better than current transportation. Morgantown’s PRT has delivered 110 million injury-free passenger miles. I believe most networks will be privately funded so the payback for them must be less than 5 years. Payback will be aided by the ability to move people, cargo, trash, etc…. These networks become a circulatory system for an economic community.
PodCars provide the service of a taxi at the cost to operate an elevator. How much do you pay to operate an elevator? This is a Physical-Internet. At your convenience, you go where you want to go in a network that is primarily solar powered. Within 20 years the cost of transportation should drop as cell phone costs have dropped. My guess is that in current dollars a typical working family transportation budget will drop from $10,332 to about $3,000 a year.
Thanks for the reply.
If I am understanding correctly, the main advantages to the PodCar are:
The last point you didn't assert. Do you have figures for capital cost per passenger mile? The "Economics" pages on the podcar.org website does not have any figures for capital or operating costs.
Also, did I miss any other benefits?
I would summarize the benefits as:
Thanks. The other asserted benefits are good but I'm going to do a little digging into the cost structure. I have recently been very unhappy when looking at the cost of light rail and that has been one of the sticking points in our county for a proposed new rail line.
I discount the benefits related to congestion for all but the biggest cities. I suspect cities strapped for cash will be forced to accept the congestion.
Thinking through this a bit, currently I'm suspicious of the capacity claims. I understand that when loading and unloading passengers the pod leaves the main track. Presumably high-demand stops would have more space to allow more pods to do this simultaneously. But there does seem to be the potential of a problem at a stop preventing a pod from leaving the main track. At this point it could stop the whole line while waiting to leave the main line (not good) or be forced to continue to the next stop.
Actually, the second option may not be so bad for the few times this occurs.
Also, such a project will compete for limited resources. These resources will need to be diverted to some fundamental areas, like rebuilding our sewers, water pipes, electric grid, petroleum pipelines, bridges and more.
Given the list of projects in the "need to have" category, I would place podcars in the "nice to have" category since it competes with simply having everyone purchase an electric scooter. This is the ultimate in flexibility and requires very few resources.
Can you make the case that podcars should go into the "need to have" category given a scarce resource environment?
The trade-off for scarce resources will be against oil. I also do not think these will be built by cities. They are broke, as are counties, states and the Federal Government. These will have to be built with private capital (also getting scarce). But like the Transcontinental Railroads and the Internet, the value is substantial. Building these networks will also re-build a distributed electrical grid.
In the "must have" class is food and trash distribution. But goods need to be delivered to neighborhoods. Connecting neighborhoods leverages the usefulness of walking, biking and scooting. If there are rails very 5 miles in a city, you would be within 2.5 miles of a station. Some pods will also have the capacity to clamp onto a car or golf cart chassis to be driven the last few miles home.
Based on payback, networks will become more dense.
For here is a spreadsheet for calculating costs.
For capacity, study Just-in-Time and Six Sigma concepts. Here is a paper on applying Lean Thinking to the transportation process. You have 20 trillion small red cells streaming resource to need on-demand in your body. Cars are small packets that stream resource to need on-demand. JPods just reduce the Parasitic Mass and random behaviors of automobiles.
Pods would not likely stop on a traveling rail to wait for a station to empty. The network "knows" the demand far in advance of events. Actions can be taken to slow vehicles, re-route, and other actions to mitigate a jam. In general, stations will be adapted to manage demand loads.
Thanks for pointing out the spreadsheet. I'll take a look and get back with some questions.
Thinking this through more, I think the competition is not going to be light rail, it will be electric scooters, electric cargo bikes and other novel ways of moving low-weight goods and people no more than 10km per trip.
They might compete some but I think that those devices will be clients of PodCars just as PodCars will be client networks of heavy freight rail.
The spread sheet is designed to enter values only on the "Inputs" page. The yellow field are the primary variables.
Most of the list is made up promoter lies, or simply wrong or irrelevant.
Alan
Despite what you think, the quality of your logic does not go up with the volume of your argument.
If your ideas are valid, they will withstand challenge. If they are weak, then efforts as small as mine might disrupt them. Vent as you wish, but it degrades your credibility.
As offered in the past, I will make you a bet that I will stop posting here if you are right and you will be civil for the next 18 months. Let me know if you have confidence in your ideas.
* On-demand mobility regardless of age, ability or wealth.
Fails to meet ADA REQUIREMENTS. Self evacuation by wheelchair pax from jPod stalled in midair is required. Prototypes ADA unfriendly, but enough $$$ and the other defects can be fixed.
* Improved service respects the customers time, the on-demand convenience of a taxi at the cost to operate an elevator
It is an open, and unproven to date, if a real world jPods will be faster than, say, a good streetcar system.
* Origin to destination non-stop transport reduces energy and increases reliable delivery
"Jams", faults and breakdowns will NEVER occur on jPods.
Regenerative braking greatly reduces the energy requirements of electrified rail, a point Bill James ignores. OTOH, plastic on steel friction traction (the apparent motive force from what I saw) is MUCH less efficient than steel on steel.
* Time during travel is available to the traveler (unlike cars)
This depends on the stability of the ride. Suspended monorails are noted for "sway" especiall at speed. in winds and around curves.
* Personal security and safety (no muggings or accidents)
No safety provision for end to end collisions between jPods (running 3 seconds apart). Muggings are entirely possible with jPods, and prostitutes will find them cheaper than motel rooms.
* Low grade terrorist target (unlike subways)
If jPods are high visibility, they can be targeted. Hack the code, blow a beam over a river and run all jPods into the river ?
* Simple supply-chain, solar powered (most areas) networks are durable from supply disruptions.
And when the vendor goes bankrupt ?
* Multi-purpose network can move people, cargo, trash, etc....
No real world examples AFAIK. Maximum design weight and density will limit what "non-people" cargoes can be operated. Less than one ton cargo max per jPod ?
* Very few emissions improves our stewardship obligations.
But MASSIVE visual pollution that will deface attractive urban cityscapes (not such a big deal in ugly areas).
* Quiet
What about when wheel or bearing wears close to failure ? A squeal seems likely.
* High capacity, 6 to 15 times light-rail.
UTTER BS !! "Assume" one jPod every 3 seconds for a couple of hours straight, and still not quite true. The realism of such operations is a fantasy.
* Low capital costs ($4-20 million per mile, including vehicles). There are examples at www.jpods.com click on "Specific Solutions"
Promoter BS, unrelated to the real world.
* High return on investment, payback in 1-5 years, allows networks to be built with private capital and operated withou subsidies
MUCH more promoter BS.
* Simple technology
Bill James just stated that his software would ANTICIPATE demand long before it occurred and modify operations to optimize for FUTURE demand.
Scheduling and optimizing current demand would take a massively complex software program (I have read an analysis that claims that there is no "perfect" mathematical solution and all means of approximating a solution eventually result in system failure/lock-up. I did not understand the paper well enough to vouch for it's claims).
Certainly this is NOT "simple" software.
* Easily recycled construction materials. Recycle before failures (such as the I-35W Bridge in Minneapolis)
Steel is easily recycled. Concrete, fiberglass and plastics less so.
* Very small real estate foot print (2 meter circle every 30-40 meters
Massive congestion with overhead power lines and sidewalks as jPods soar over road traffic (bottom of jPod minimum of 17' above road surface ?) and then goes down to street level for level boarding by wheel chair passengers. 30 m spans seems unlikely with such dramatic changes in elevation.
The maximum slope of the track will determine just how much sidewalk will become unusable (discouraging walking).
Calculate slope required to pass over traffic and still dip down to street level mid-block for a jPod station and motion sickness is possible if traveled at speed.
* Construction does not interfer with existing traffic
Hardly possible. Portland streetcars can build 3 blocks of track in 3 weeks. Heathrow and other PRT took months to build. Some blue sky dreaming.
* Low operating costs, about 4 cents per vehicle mile. Amoritzing all costs (contruction, maintenance, rebuilding 14 year cycle) the total costs per vehicle mile looks about like 18 cents (number of variables)
BS !!
Given the constrained dimensions of the drive unit (it fits inside a hollow beam) a durable and robust drive unit seems nearly impossible to engineer.
Plastic wheels as drive wheels will create an maintenance nightmare.
Data feedback to central control and failsafe control commands from central control to each and EVERY jPod is another probable maintenance problem.
Doors are a constant and on-going maintenance headache at EVERY transit agency in the world. jPod doors require fail-safe prevention of unscheduled opening by, say, children, in mid-air. Fail safe is never cheap.
Unproven technology, drawn up on the kitchen table, will simply not last. Add snow, birds, wasp nests, etc.
My SWAG is O&M of $0.25 to $4 per VMT (first class software engineers are not cheap).
Best Hopes for Forgetting jPods,
Alan
PodCars are just horizontal-elevators
BS !!
Elevators do not "packet switch" between shafts. Neither do jPods, but jPods claim that they do.
Elevators do not have multiple cabs on a single shaft,
but jPods claim that they do.
Elevators are ADA compliant and can legally be built in the USA. jPods are not and cannot be.
Elevators do not come by every 3 seconds. Neither do jPods, but they make that claim.
Elevators do not have to worry about top to bottom collisions with other elevators, jPods *DO* need to worry about end to end collisions.
Elevators are made with the most robust, heaviest duty electrical motors made. jPods are made with cheap flimsy plastic wheels and cheap light duty motors. I seriously doubt that jPod drive units will last a month between major maintenance./scrap.
Just a gadgetbahn to seperate "investors" from their money,
Alan
Hi, Alan. I greatly respect the work that you do, I think you know that.
However, there is room for new transportation models to be introduced, I think, and many of the objections you list seem to me to be minor or solvable.
As for capacity, I too am skeptical of the capacity claims, but I rachet down manufacturers' claims routinely when examining new equipment.
The possibility of end-to-end collisions is real but seems to me less than what we tolerate with independently driven vehicles on our current road system (lots of rear-end crashes).
Comparing it to an elevator is just a useful metaphor and all metaphors break down at some point.
Although I'm not quite clear that it beats its competition, I think it is worth a serious look. Light rail is great...this might be, too.
jPod like monorails/dual rails have been around for over 30 years. They are *NOT* new technology.
A handful in service, airports seem to be a "fit" with what they offer. Technically, "straddle beam" monorails are more practical than "suspended monorails" in real world service (jPods are suspended monorails).
Segways are also useful and fill a small niche (despite the grandiose claims made at their release). PRT may one day fit a similarly small niche, but we should not spend ANY time or energy in the USA on unproven gadgetbahn. They are a diversion from the critical need for BASIC mass transit in the USA.
More is to be learned from the "Light Metro" of Copenhagen, and the mass build of trams in France (22 billion euros for 1,500 km), how Madrid built a superb Metro in a dozen years, how Moscow manages to have 90 second headways on their subways than discussing some determined promoters dream.
In particular, jPods do not meet, and cannot economically meet, the ADA requirements in the USA. That alone is enough to dismiss them and forget them.
Let a nation with an excellent Non-Oil transportation system experiment with gadgetbahn. If they develop anything that works, lets buy it from them AFTER we build the basics (2025 best case).
Best Hopes for Building the Basics, and stop wasting time on worthless, unworkable gadgetbahn.
Alan
PS: I would be MORE impressed by a Segway maniac, who works out a plan on how to make half of all urban transportation by Segway, than I am by Bill James. Segways actually work.