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289 comments on DrumBeat: October 7, 2008
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289 comments on DrumBeat: October 7, 2008
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Of course Merrill Lynch is assuming that there will not be any real oil price increase. So when they say $150 the actual figure will be over $300 in the not-so-long run.
It's totally weird that many economists don't grasp the concept of the laws of supply and demand... especially when it comes to gasoline.
Ignorant -
I am ignorant as to whether any economist has actually put forth a classical Econ 101 type of of supply/demand curve for gasoline that even halfway reflects reality and even halfway has any predictive power.
Or is it more the case that both the supply curve and the demand curve are constantly being changed by a whole host of influences that are probably not even fully known much less quantifiable? And in the real world, does supply and demand for gasoline ever really come into equiibrium or is the very notion of 'equilibrium' just a convenient construct, say like a 'point mass' or 'ideal gas'?
As you may have guessed by now, I am not an economist, so maybe these questions are off base, but I get this nagging feeling that many of our basic economic assumptions are due for a major overhaul.
Try this one for openers:
http://www.econbrowser.com/
Search the site for "energy."
If that's too technical try CARPE DIEM:
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/
puhkawn -
Thanks for providing me with those two links.
Unfortunately, as best I can tell neither in any way addresses my question re supply/demand curves for gasoline that I posed above.
So, what is your take on it?
See my comment about a melange gumbo.
My seat of the pants guess is that the near term is still down in gasoline prices. The Gulf coast is coming back on line, the economy is weakening, the dollar is strengthening, go figure, and the perception is for lower prices. Supply is increasing and demand still seems to be going down plus a stronger dollar equals cheaper gas at the pump is my guess. Remember this comes from the seat of my pants.
The price just balances actual supply and actual demand - if you know what they will be at every price you can predict the price of the balance point. Clearly an impossible task as the pundits prove every hour of every day! Don't waste your time, life is too short.
All you can say is if the price is falling relative to income there is potentially adequate extra supply (albeit maybe at a higher price) peak oil is a nonsense and we are all saved, and if the price is rising and becoming less affordable, supply is inadequate to meet current growth aspirations.
Actually, since people the whole world over have aspirations for economic growth and Governments are desperate to make it happen, but oil supply is basically flat, expect the price of oil to rise as a proportion of income.
Whether you think your income/wealth will fall in real terms (deflation) or the prices will rise (inflation) I leave up to your seat of pants to guess - but at the moment for most people (although they don't yet fully realise it) deflation has, by far, the upper hand. You only feel the full effect of inflation or deflation when you buy or sell something!
In an era of deflation your accumulated wealth declines, in an era of inflation your real income declines - so in the long run you probably lose out either way unless you have some kind of hedging strategy.
Call me curious. Just where do "many" economists miss grasping the concept of the laws of supply and demand? Do you mean they have a poor record of predictions or exactly what? Please be specific.
Real economists don't appear to concern themselves with trifles such as "gasoline."
They appear to study the supply and demand of wigets, as those entities are more mathematically tractable.
Pure BS, you obviously don't read many many blogs by economists.
Here is a short list of some of the more better known ones:
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/
http://www.econbrowser.com/
http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/
http://cafehayek.typepad.com/
http://econlog.econlib.org/
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/
http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/
Good luck on finding a widget...
It didn't take me long to find widgets-- from the econbrowser
You're right, I don't spend much time on econ sites -- mainly because I never thought they had much to do with the "real" world. Thanks for the URL's -- I hope to be proven wrong (that economists don't really care) and hope they will be marching in the streets and assailing the Treasury.
I hope to see an "Economists for Social Responsibilty" or Union of Concerned Economists spring up.
Puhkawn,
The article (as written) seems to say that the inflationary effect will be the primary driver on the price of oil (or else why even bring it up?).
My response:
1) A lot of money "evaporated" with these bad investments. (defacto) Money supply may - for all practical purposes - be driven down... along with inflationary pressures.
2) Lower prices may in themselves be enough to increase demand (and price). That may have more of an affect on price than inflation might.
3) Most oil is sold through futures commodities. That, it seems, has a substantial impact of oil prices. Probably more affect than inflation.
This article doesn't say much to me. It's about the same as if I said, "three people will die of cancer today, while two will perish from a malfunction of a heart muscle" without providing any more details. Statistically a pretty safe prediction.
I'll buy that. I didn't particularly find the article very useful either.(Past experience, however, says I am wrong more than I am right in commodity markets.) Things are very volatile at the moment and I find my crystal ball is very very cloudy. It is not to hard to figure out the major factors at the moment. The declining US economy, strengthening dollar, the EU melt down, OPEC making noise about cutbacks, possible Eastern economies decline, and so far the continuing decline in demand for petroleum in the US and elsewhere. In Cajun French when you throw all that in the gumbo pot it is called a melange. Just what this melange is going to taste like God only knows.
Good point dissident. He doesn't talk about about supply issues, only decreased demand in a inflationary monetary system.
So I think you're "$300" figure will be more accurate and I bet you're also going to be found to be correct in your prediction of "in the not-so-long run."
Money supply goes up, that's inflationary... add declining material and energy availability indefinately = hyperinflation.
I'm sure they are also recommending privately to short oil. I've seen enough stock/commodity recommendations by "expert analysts" to yawn at their predictions. They usually aren't any smarter than the rest of us.
You would think with the credit crisis and plunge in commodity prices there would be a drop off in energy production followed by a short-term spike in prices but then again most oil projects are proposed thinking that the price of oil is well below what it is now. However, I bet natural gas prices will be extremely volatile which is good for renewable and nuclear energy.
I doubt oil would get near $300 unless there was some sort of escalated conflict (which is very possible).
I think the current oil price is driven mostly by hysteria about a recession and the expectation of falling demand. If the summer price was overvalued the current price is undervalued. My impression is that oil consumption around the world is not too discretionary. As you note the recession will hit oil production not just demand, specifically all of the expensive projects to extract oil under difficult conditions which is increasingly becoming the norm. Most analysis I see in the media assumes supply is not an issue. In the near term this will appear to be the case as the poorest sections of the third world our outbid for the few millions of barrels per day they consume. In the not-so-long term this slack will disappear as there is little evidence of transition to an alternative energy economy.