111 comments on How Much Nationalization Is Appropriate?
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111 comments on How Much Nationalization Is Appropriate?
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As a conservative (I'm not neccessarily a Republican anymore...) I find what has gone on under the Bush administation very disappointing. Everytime I hear, "we must take drastic action immeadiately," red flags go off in my head. Bush is not acting like a leader and neither is congress. I'm hoping somebody comes forward and leads (it's not looking like Obama or McCain) by telling the American people that they are in control of their own destiny. Financial prudence and knowledge is the responsibility of every American person. A free, capitalist society cannot work if the general population is not somewhat intelligent in their decision making processes. If the American people continue to fail at managing the basic aspects of their lives, we will slide into Socialism. Everybody will be equally miserable.
MW
"telling the American people that they are in control of their own destiny" what's needed is telling the people they are RESPONSIBLE for their own destiny. Unfortunately the nature of democracies is that the people vote for politicians that tell them the good times will continue or get better.
Above, "And to most of us, this feels like rapid progress to something like the USSR."
"we will slide into Socialism. Everybody will be equally miserable."
Why do Americans keep insisting that any sort of collective social action is communism?
Why do Americans keep insisting that any sort of collective social action is communism?
Because their society is screwed in the head. Everywhere else I go there is some kind of public health system. but I talk to my brother in law in Indiana and he thinks it's SOCIALISM!!! And if the health care system goes to gov't we're all on the way to the gulag. He's typical, and he's an idiot. I would think he's a singularity, but I've met his neighbours and they are all of the same view.
It's as sad as it is pathetic, and is one of the reasons I left. I just got sick of the stupidity. There's plenty of stupidity elsewhere, but at least I'm away from that particular variety of wilful ignorance combined with wishful thinking and obdurant adherence to superstition and narrowminded idiocy.
Stuart. I know what you are saying--I live in Indiana where universal health care is socialism but nationalizing Wall Street is not. I guess it comes from listening to Rush Limbaugh, but you would think that even a little bit of common sense would show the fallacy here.
"Fascists promote corporatism, ... which typically allows a significant degree of freedom from state intervention for private interests that are operating well independently or are outside of national interests, but if areas of the economy vital to national interests are operating poorly, or require direction to operate in accordance to national interest, state intervention is utilized."
Well hello, and who is this here here then?
National Heath Care is socialism because and only because it is currently very profitable. Our insurance for self employed under 50's is 14,000 per year. The politicians can talk all they want that $5,000 rebate or what ever. This is a bridge to nowhere.
health insurance is cheap when everybody has it. Thanks to the Hill-Burton act those without get to pay nothing and we get to pay extra via higher and higher insurance premiums.
So we have de-facto national health care. Like everything else there are too few payee's.
Because people have been trained that way. Collective action is the only chance for survival for a species as physically weak as human beings. But the drive for individual survival (which is abetted by the power of hydrocarbon energy) has allowed "the leadership" to proclaim, for a few years that anything other than individual aggrandizement is "wrong." Those people have mis-appropriated a perfectly good word "socialism" and converted it into a punching bag for their own sinister purposes.
Why do Americans keep insisting that any sort of collective social action is commmunism? Because Rush Limbaugh told them so.
Why do they keep listening to that creep? That is a question I would like answered.
I'll tell you what question boggles my mind NeverLNG: Let's forget about banks and stuff like that for a minute and take a commodity like, say, water. How is it possible that collectively, people would allow water to be "owned" by a single person, and then pay money to that person in order to have access to that self-same water? Why would anyone allow water to be controlled by a corporation whose sole purpose is to make a profit? That boggles my mind completely.
I think "the people" don't allow it in the sense that they "vote" for it. Because of a corrupt system, they elect "leaders" who pass laws making common resources (The Columbia River, say) into a commodity that they can buy and sell -- and they (those "leaders") sell the River to the highest bidder-- and the bidders are all working with each other in a rigged auction.
Then the people, who didn't really get the money anyway, have to buy it back.
The system is so well tested and perfected -- English "inclosure laws" were very effective, and it the pirates' techniques have improved greatly since then. Maude Barlow: The Growing Battle for the Right to Water
Don't know where you live, dtbks, but here in the arid west water is a scarce commodity and the rights to it are defended to the death. AFAIK, we can't even collect rainwater in a barrel because that water has already been claimed. Talk about mind-boggling.....
http://www.blm.gov/nstc/WaterLaws/colorado.html
http://www.matternetwork.com/2008/7/the-cistern-conundrum_397.cfm
"Why do they keep listening to that creep? That is a question I would like answered."
Because people have lost the will to search for their own answers. There is so much information and misinformation out there making it very difficult to research your own answers. It is much easier to just listen to a so-called "expert" who has culled the data for you and boiled it down into easily digested info bits. This is particulary the case with older folks that are not so comfortable with the internet.
The real problem is that people willing and able to provide honest and true answers would never think of ever doing the sort of self-promoting publicity-seeking stuff the Limbaugh types do in order to hold onto their power bases.
Collective action is the only chance for survival for a species as physically weak as human beings.
Are you sure? How about a crowd collective stampede over the cliff?
For the survival to have some chance, the action has to be:
1. Sane organized by sane people, OR
2. Voluntary so that the sane people can opt out.
I want to opt out from the Privatization plan. Tell me how!
Obviously, voluntary organized collective suicide is deadly for some madmen, but mandated organized collective suidice is deadly even for the sane.
Those people have mis-appropriated a perfectly good word "socialism" and converted it into a punching bag for their own sinister purposes.
No matter what word you like for it, the concept mandatory government
stealingwealth redistribution is as destructive as stealing."we will slide into Socialism. Everybody will be equally miserable."
Why do Americans keep insisting that any sort of collective social action is communism?
Because by the definition Communism is when such collective social action is forcend upon everyone without individual way to opt out.
Hi Tony (and Suart, et al.)
"Why do Americans keep insisting that any sort of collective social action is communism?"
I tried to resist replying to your rhetorical question, I really did, but since I actually know the answer it seemed dishonest to remain silent.
But first, the disclaimer: I am in no way a conspiracy theorist and have no faith in the efficacy of tin foil hats (although a full scale Farraday Cage might be prudent.... joke). Here's the deal. To live is to conspire. Wherever two or more creatures are gathered in the name of mutual self-interest, there is conspiracy. A football huddle is conspiracy. A closed door Board Meeting is conspiracy. Have I made the point?
Americans keep insisting that 'any sort of collective social action is communism' because dedicated professional propagandists have worked very diligently for many years to make that prejudicial assumption a core belief of as many people as possible.
It's not difficult, just expensive. All ya gotta do is say it often enough from as many sources as you can hire using as many channels of communication as you can afford.
Chief among the conduits for the specific bullshit you asked about were Time/Life Publishing under the direction of Claire Booth Luce and the then U.S. Office of Special Services (later to become CIA) for whom similar patriotic services were performed as part of the defense effort of the Second World War. The company pretty well bracketed the readership spectrum, with TIME mag for the upper-middle, LIFE mag for the mainstream, Readers Digest for the unwashed masses, and My Weekly Reader for innocent tykes in schools across the nation.
(So if reading any of those has ever left you feeling intellectually soiled, now you have a hint about why)
Basically all of this grew out of the coordinated intelligence efforts between England, Canada and the United States starting with the run-up to World War II. After knocking out the Nazi's and Nips by the middle of 1945 they turned their sights to the next target looming on the horizon: Joe Stalin's Russia.
Because the OSS (later CIA) were staffed up originally from the ranks of Industry and the Ivy League the 'flavor' lingered, so anything that did not please these elites that was even remotely similar to Communism got a severe dose of what we gave Hitler and Iron Joe (socialism, trade unions, liberals, etc.)
The non-fiction book "A Man Called Intrepid" , by William Stevenson is an excellent read if that sort of thing interests you, But be forewarned, the book itself is a smoothly presented piece of propaganda, and as such is likely to leave you not nearly as well informed as you will feel it does.
So, to make a long answer too short: we've been brain washed and it weren't no accident.
There is no group of humans more socialist in thinking and behaviour than the superrich. The average human with a net worth exceeding 30 million US has a far more extensive social network and social support than the average person. Most billionaires literally have hundreds of friends that can help them out financially and in other ways-the average person is lucky to have a handful. The rich are socialist because socialism works.
The rich are socialist because socialism works.
Yes,
May I add, the rich probably do not have problem with socialism, because they do not have problem with stealing. Many of them, benefited from it in the past, some even became rich that way.
And socialism or tax and wealth redistribution sound much nicer than theft<?B>.
And remember, every time you take from some, before you give it to another,something sticks under the fingernails. And the recipients of the leftover benefit may even praise you!
There are many leaders out there. Don't dispair because you see the President (tial Choice) as "The Leader". That's what democracy /was/ trying to alleviate/correct. What other leaders are out there? Well looking at one! definition of leadership, it could be one who is followed. Why are we following those who sell/lead/ us the new big SUV? or the newest fastest computer, or the bigger house? Where are the education and values being taught? TV and other media outlets, maybe. Why do we have a culture where two income families are pretty much a necessity, and teachers are one of the lowest paid professions, along with others that protect and serve? Perhaps a focus on more and better education is the only way for the next ( or its too late for any but the next next) generataion.
There are many leaders out there. Don't dispair because you see the President (tial Choice) as "The Leader". That's what democracy /was/ trying to alleviate/correct. What other leaders are out there? Well looking at one! definition of leadership, it could be one who is followed. Why are we following those who sell/lead/ us the new big SUV? or the newest fastest computer, or the bigger house? Where are the education and values being taught? TV and other media outlets, maybe. Why do we have a culture where two income families are pretty much a necessity, and teachers are one of the lowest paid professions, along with others that protect and serve? Perhaps a focus on more and better education is the only way for the next ( or its too late for any but the next next) generataion.