Why don't you lead the way and test out this hunter-gathering lifestyle so the rest of us can watch and see if we want to join you.

This is getting rated as bad, and it is a bit snarky, but I think it cuts to a relevant point about this article: if I'm understanding it correctly, there is no solution to the problem and practically everyone is going to die. If life at even a pre-Mesopotamian level is still going to doom us, then why try? Why not just continue as we are, enjoy it while it lasts, and make sure to buy some guns for when it all goes to hell? The lack of prescription, and in fact explicit ruling out of any possible prescription reads more like a reductio ad absurdum exaggeration for the whole sustainable agriculture movement than an argument for anything.

Basically, what I want to hear from Peter is: why write this article? What do you expect to accomplish by telling people to abandon all hope?

"why write this article?"

"If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst," or some such idea quoted here often. Thomas Hardy, I believe.

The way I read it is that modern agricultural practices are not sustainable. Eventually (for the sake of future generations) a more conservative approach will need to be taken (probably over several generations).

Organic farming is probably the most sustainable form of agricultural practice that is available... but probably can't produce the amounts of food needed to sustain the current population.

I don't see this as a doom-&-gloom article, it's just a suggestion for a new approach that will take a multi-generational time frame to impliment.

Organic farming is probably the most sustainable form of agricultural practice that is available... but probably can't produce the amounts of food needed to sustain the current population.

Like everything else, it depends ...

Modern agriculture farms dollars. It produces billions of livestock and wastes a large percentage of production in processing. We have to support our livestock, our processing, our unbelieveably lovely and incredibly desirable motor vehicles ... as well as the current populations.

That's a lot to sustain. Cuts will be necessary. People will eat less meat. This means a reduction in the numbers of livestock requiring sustainence. The auto population will shrink. The war between people and cars for 'food' will end with the annihilation of the car (hopefully). Processing will be simplified. More food equivalent in dollars (or other currencies) will be freed from 'sugarization' and packaging to feed.

And, of course, there will be better land and water management ... organic farming in place of subdivisions.

The greatest question I have with this presentation is that it considers the ecosystem as fixed, when it is not. Whatever state the biosphere is in at any given time ... it is in equilibrium.

I am not an expert, so I will keep my remarks brief. I have been in areas in the Andean highlands in Ecuador and Peru that have been cultivated with row crops by indigenous citizens of these lands for thousands of years. The terrain is steep and unforgiving with large rainfall amounts during the wet season. The inhabitants practice traditional agriculture as machinery is impossible to use. There is no reason that these areas cannot be productive for as long as people are willing to work the soils.

Why does there have to be a "point" to someone writing a research paper? And why do we always have to be offered a "solution" to our predicament. It seems obvious that almost 7 billion humans highly dependent on industrial agriculture are going to have to die back as fuels become scarce. The only question is to what number? If he argued for say 1 billion permaculturalists instead of 200 million hunter/gatherers would that have been more hopeful?

Obviously, although exactly what the carrying capacity of the Earth is at various consumption levels (Ghandi-like or NY 5th Avenue) is a job for generations practicing adaptive management ---- however we do know the direction human population numbers must go /// down.

As a research paper, I don't think much of this effort.  It's a rather tendentious piece with little to support its dire conclusions, and uses a number of popular works as "references".

One of its glaring flaws is that it assumes that the trends of the future can only be driven by the same processes and knowledge as we had in the past, even the prehistoric past.  I shouldn't have to point out to anyone here that the mere fact that we're having this discussion proves how completely wrong this is... yet the author has been given a pass on this point by every commenter I've read thus far.

There are a number of single advances which would throw the conclusions of this paper in the toilet.  Perennial grain crops are one; if it was no longer necessary to disturb soil to get the next crop, the loss of topsoil through erosion is no longer a significant issue.  Terra preta is another; it prevents much of the loss of nutrient ions through leaching.  Some of these "inevitable" problems are actually the consequences of law, and can be reversed.  Simple changes in agricultural policy to move back from CAFOs and other parts of industrial farming (see Michael Pollen's work) would recycle nutrients on the land instead of flushing them to the ocean after one cycle.

If you look at the system with the eyes of a physicist, you'll see that there's enormously more renewable energy available to us than even today's fossil-dependent society uses.  Nature's been doing this job for aeons; what's a tree, but a mechanism to capture solar energy, fix it chemically and build useful structures with it?  We've already got devices which capture energy 100 times as well as trees do; the problem is getting them built into fully-renewable systems and out into the world.

Engineer-Poet,

Your looking at 'it' thru the eyes of an engineer, I must assume.
The author as a soil biologist.

Me as a farmer. From early childhood when I was raised on farms, to farms I have held even though working in the IT industry, to now where I brought my present one in 1985 and farmed it and it was under intensive modern ag row cropping for much of my ownership in the 80s. Upon which time in the early 90s I stopped row cropping and resorted to grasslands and grassland management for the haying crops(made more money then).

Ok. It IMO takes a farmer who is close to the soil to see what has happened and I must agree with the author as to what I see.Though most farmers might see this they refuse to give it credence,IMO again.

My area has very good soils. It also contains much bottom land which requires no fertlizer inputs for the most part.

What I see and judge , viewing the past against the present is the vast amount of devastation. How the modern practices destroy the land.

A personal example then:

I noticed that the operators who put in my row crops had little real regard for the soil and land. They were destroying my farm as a result and they were the biggest in the county and the richest.

Yet when I dug 5 ft hole for the erection of a pole barn I was building I noticed that there was not a single earthworm to be found as I augered these holes. Right in the middle of a corn field. Looking over my farm which was BTW being No-Tilled..I discovered that I could find zero evidence of earthworms. Except in the nearby woodlands.

I also noticed plenty of gullies starting to form. I tried disking them and overseeding them with Ky 31 Fescue..did not good for they promptly sprayed weed burndown over them and planted right over them.

They had destroyed two of the ponds on the place by breaking the damns. Ponds that drained a lot of watershed. They pushed the fences into the ponds. Took me a great deal of work to resurrect the ponds after I discontinued the row cropping.

There is far more but the good fertile soil that was classified as Collins Silt Loam was being turned sterile over time.

I sowed it all down and it began to come back.

This has happened all over my county and other counties. The farmer thinks nothing of altering the land via dozers and trackhoes, which most now own. They destroy the topsoil and figure that as long as they can spread fertilizer on it then it doesn't matter at all.

Most farmers are IMO lousy stewards of the land!!!

I know a lot. They want the money,period. They will use what ever methods to ensure they have a cash flow in the positive.

Note that I have experience in more than one state as far as owning small and large farms. The lands of central Ky are entirely different and what works for one doesn't work for all.

So my view is that , yes we are fast destroying our precious soil and nature in the process.

One has to simply drive by a large paper/pulp mill or chip mill or charcoal making site to realize the enormity of what is transpiring , all in the name of a suburban family being able to cook meat outdoors. Or having cheap food, even though that food be fairly tasteless and void of much nutrition.

I think ag is our last frontier to destroy.
The oil is going.
Financials are in dire straits.
Ag is next to meltdown and believe me,it is ripe.

They, the farmers, have mostly forgotten how it used to be. How precious the land was when you sat on very good land and most of the us does not have good water, good growing seasons and good soil..all combined as we do in many areas nearby.

Illinois in the flat lands has been turned into a massive field of industrial ag. Thats about all it is. Mining of coal may come back but intensive ag is about it.
Iowa,Indiana,upper Missouri and so on.

We are killing it and at a rather rapid pace.
Good thing that ethanol is now just a dream.

Bad that we grow grains that are used to foist junk food on the masses and enable them to continue the dreams of endless dreams of paradise on earth thru gorging themselves and endless driving.

Airdale

Re Airdale comments.
Going through the same cycle. Being in farming for 46 years and farming and engineering in parallel I support the comments in the paper and Airdale’s comments.
For future farming the major problem is the soil degradation that is compounded by the removal of biomass residues for biofuel, animal feed and energy production. The organic components in soil are steadily removed and have to be replaced with NPK fertilizer etc.
In future some fertilizer can be made from renewable energies, and this will ensure that crop yield do not drop to medieval levels. More biomass wil have to be returned to the soil which will put a strain on all the renewable – biomass based future resources.
There still is IMO a good case for not so intensive “industrial farming” especially if we manage Phosphorous well. This is no new issue. Already 1300 BC this problem has been identified in the UK. http://www.bahs.org.uk/45n2a1.pdf

A few numbers that illustrate the issues:
Medieval harvest in Denmark 1600-1700 BC typically 5-7 “fold” (grown in 2/3 year crop rotation).
“Fold” means how many grains you harvest compared to what you sow.
For UK the literature gives a similar yield around 1800 BC of 20 bushel per acre ~7 fold ~ 1.25 ton per Hectare
http://books.google.dk/books?id=9XzxRXrIIo8C&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=crop+...
Present wheat harvest 40-55 fold and Barley 28-35 fold.
For grain yield nerds this English database is a must: “Three centuries of English crops yields “
1211-1491. http://www.cropyields.ac.uk/project.php Yields of 3 “folds” or less are not uncommon in those times.

/And1

I think that abandoning all hope is an interjection into the discussion of one's way of dealing with life. I see a bleak future, but am positive about my chances, and even welcome the challenge. It never crossed my mind to give up, build my coffin, and wait for circumstances to sweep me away, yet I fully agree that we have a human bubble which will be deflated by dieoff. What defines living in balance with nature certainly is not what we do today, but might not be a total animal existence either. Survivors will tell the story.

Far from abandoning all hope, we have the choice to orchestrate a reduction in our numbers during the next ciuple of centuries by planned reduction of the birth rate or having nature reduce our numbers by starvation.

Far from abandoning all hope, we have the choice to orchestrate a reduction in our numbers during the next ciuple of centuries by planned reduction of the birth rate or having nature reduce our numbers by starvation.

I see a longterm globally decreasing population trajectory as being extremly difficult to achieve politically. Think of all the local perverse incentives. For example My local/regional group has the only true religion, and it is god's will for it to expand at the expense of the infidels. It would take some pretty draconian global government to suppress such instincts.

Assuming a reasonably non catastrophic population trajectory can be extablished, I think it is an open question what sort of population and living standard can be sustainably maintained. Presumably we will retain (and probably advance) science and technology, and that should allow equilibrium levels much greater than in pre-agricultural time. I don't believe fossil fuels (including fission) are the last word in energy, i.e. in some form renewable enrgy technology should allow the continuation of some level of industrial energy usage. But I guess we have at least a couple of centuries to answer that question.

Next couple of centuries? I think the wolf is at the door now, and well before mid century (2050) the population reduction will be in full swing. I don't see it happening as some sort of rational response, but rather an enforced consequence of being extremely out of balance with the ability of the earth give us the opportunity to provide for ourselves.

Looking at is as a couple of centuries seems to me to be a convenient way to think that the problem is far in the future.

Maybe that's all he was trying to say, enjoy it while it lasts. I doubt it, it has deeper implications than that, though, the principal one being don't have kids, and don't let your kids have kids (as though you can stop them). I am glad I am old and won't be around that longer, as the world prepares to go over the Olduvai Cliff. http://www.energybulletin.net/node/45518

When I eat lunch at my favorite fast food joint I look at the throngs of kids there and think how screwed they are, and they don't even know it.

QA_2 This is a classic example of refusing to recognise that we are just one organism inhabiting this planet. By being that we are subject to the same laws of population dynamics as other organisms. There is only one way for a species to go that is in population/resource overshoot-bust. We have had the boom now it is time for the bust. It is that simple.

I think if you look at it as a positive correction of the human species that will take resource pressure off all other organisms, then you will be able to put down your gun, have grace and smile. It is not the end of the World, it is the end of an era of Earth dominance by humanity.

Exiled Scot,

I'm confused by your comment.

Where is "this hunter-gathering lifestyle" for testing mentioned in this article?

The way I read it, the main proposal is a more conservative agricultural approach.

Just another variation on the "why don't you kill yourself" suggestion every time one discusses population reduction, or the Fox News "Al Gore lives in a big carbon-spewing mansion," which is why we can put our fingers in our ears every time that annoying GW comes up...