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160 comments on DrumBeat: October 21, 2008
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160 comments on DrumBeat: October 21, 2008
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What do you know, I'm an engineer by training as well. A new post that I wrote called "Why We Can't Pump Faster"
http://mobjectivist.blogspot.com/2008/10/why-we-cant-pump-faster.html
Excerpts from your post:
These are two representations of what the world oil production curve might look like, if we actually managed to pump harder. (The Gompertz curve is the rounder one, closer to the Hubbert curve we are used to).
You also fitted a Gompertz curve to phosphate production:
Click for larger images. Read the whole post for better understanding of that WebHubbleTelescope is saying.
Hello WHT,
Thxs for your hard work on phosphates. I don't know if this will help on any future analysis, but remember the guanos are activated phosphorus[P]--beneficiated by the birds and bats; thus equivalent to modern superphosphate from processed ores:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superphosphate
We are now reliant upon raw ores PLUS THE BENEFICIATION PROCESS. The key to this is Sulfur-->sulfuric acid-->phosphoric acid-->high potency, high NPK-ratio finished products.
Much more energy is now required than for guano. Lawes knew about this chem-process a long time ago, but couldn't find the energy to power a large scale operation--thus the ships had to sail around the world for guano, instead of the short hop to Morocco.
Thus, as sour crude and sour natgas depletes, IMO, it will have a great impact on I-NPK flowrates, with the greatest effect upon activated-P flowrates [as that is where most sulfur is directed].
Some people will say we will never run out of sulfur to mine. I counter with the USGS argument that mining raw sulfur is much more energy intensive plus environmentally destructive than refining it from FFs [56-page PDF Warning]:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2002/of02-298/of02-298.pdf
-------------------
[Page 15] Recovered Sulfur
In the context of this report, recovered sulfur is defined as the elemental sulfur recovered for environmental reasons during the
processing of natural gas and petroleum refining. The U.S. Bureau of Mines first reported recovered sulfur production data for the
United States in 1938; prior to that time, unspecified quantities of sulfur were produced, especially during treatment of natural gas, but
disposed of as waste. Sulfur recovery has grown in importance over the years to become the leading source of sulfur in the United
States starting in 1982 and the only source of elemental sulfur with the closure of the last domestic sulfur mine in August 2000.
---------------------
As FFs deplete, I suspect the shrinking energy and sulfur will impact the P-flowrate, but I have no idea how to math extrapolate this out.
Hopefully, you can find time to give this a go....Thxs in advance.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Interesting... sulfur comes from natural gas as a byproduct of refining it. Does anyone else know of any other byproducts from refining oil/natural gas? (Helium comes to mind in this context, as it is a byproduct of drilling for oil/nat. gas)... When facing Peak Oil, are we also facing Peak Sulfur, Peak Helium, and Peak something else...?
Hello Geckolizard,
My earlier post just considered the I-NPK beneficiation energy required vs ready-to-apply O-NPK guanos. Now think about how much more transport energy is present day required:
Olden days**
Virtually minimal with free wind in sails; just the one-way return trip from a guano island back to the seaport, then inland to the final square foot topsoil dispersion.
Modern day**
Get sulfur moved from Athabasca oilsands, plus Potash[K] moved from Saskatchewan, plus raw ore phosphate[P] rock moved from Morocco, plus natgas Haber-Bosch ammonia[N] moved from Russia or Trinidad-->all four Elements then meet in Louisiana to be processed to the specific finished product [DAP, MAP, MOP, TSP, MIRACLE-GRO, VIGORO, etc].
Then, load the product on a truck, RR, river barge, or ship to then send to final destination for topsoil application. This is a simplified example, but it is easy to see how the total embedded transport energy over many, many miles can be huge.
Ok, now this gets more complicated, but I'll follow...
Consider Peak Oil: it's not necessarily how long that oil lasts, but the flow rate that counts...
So, less oil (and natural gas, because we're running into that wall too) means less energy...
And less energy means that the flow of things derived from energy (even if it has absolutely nothing to do with oil/gas) also is reduced.
Less N, P, K from around the world because the 'energy flow' (i.e. energy needed for transportation) is restricted by energy;
Less food because the 'energy flow' (i.e. energy needed to run tractors, water pumps, etc) is less;
Less water because the 'energy flow' (i.e. energy needed to pump wells from aquifers) is less;
Less synthetic fertilizer (I-NPK) because the 'energy flow' (i.e. energy needed to create the chemicals needed for fertilizers) is less...
I guess it is all about flows. If you have 3 million people living in a city, and only enough food to feed 1.5 million is flowing in, you have problems. If you have only enough heat or electricity to heat and provide for 1.5 million, you have problems. If you only have enough water for 1.5 million, again, problems.
Flows...
Yep,Yep,Yep--it's not the size of beerkeg, it's the size of the tap.
Imagine if every bottleneck beer's aperture was even smaller than this o
Yikes!
Bob,
I totally agree sulfur is hidden trap with phosphate production. (Well, one of many.) Florida makes around 30 million tons of calcium sulfate (or gypsum) every year. Yesterday, I watched dozens of tanker cars of sulfur of a train going into one of the phosphate plants near Mulberry, Florida. I could not help wondering how far around the world this sulfur came. (Hey, it gets boring waiting for a train to cross the road). What are we going to do when production drops and fuel oil becomes scarce?
Hello Mad_Man,
Thxs for responding. We need to do as Pres. Clinton suggests: close the landfills everywhere, then start recycling everything to slow the rate of entropy as much as we can.
some of the sulphur probably came from your own sour crude jay field in florida.
an abstract linked here: here:http://search.datapages.com/data/doi/10.1306/A1ADD881-0DFE-11D7-8641000102C1865D
From the ref, it looks like the easy sulfur extraction shows Gompertz-like behavior.
