That's pretty rich. The last I heard was that China has plundered the US with their trade surplus, not the other way round. Besides that, the reason the oil price is falling is macro-economic affordability. You may (or may not) be able to afford gasoline at $10 a gallon but the US economy cannot afford to import 14m bbl/day at $200 or $300 a bbl. So economics caps the oil price IMO. More and more countries can't afford to import oil at $100+ because they can't get the financing.

Martin Wolf in the FT (pink paper version so no link) recently said that the total current account deficit of the countries in deficit is $1.68 trillion with a corresponding surplus for the other countries. This is the amount that the global balance sheet must expand each year to keep trade going on the same basis. The markets are having difficulty financing this deficit now which is one of the reasons the dollar is rising. There is a shortage of dollars for financing the deficits, unwinding the carry trade and deleveraging the hedge funds and the banks all at the same time.

Who will finance these deficits if the banks can't and the surplus countries won't?

Tip: Take a Prozac before you read the Telegraph link above. You'll need it

Ambrose Evans from the Telegraph makes Nouriel Roubini look plain optimistic...

Ambrose Evans is retarded-this is a mirror image of the insane housing bubble. Look, if the US dollar is so fundamentally strong because of the "reverse carry trade" and "dollar hegemony" has returned, Obama shouldn't plan on a 1-2 trillion dollar deficit next year-go big-why not 5-10 trillion. Obviously, permanently the USA has discovered a way to turn water into wine-mathematics has been overruled-just make every USA citizen a millionaire and your economy will boom.

Ambrose Evans is the closest thing the establishment allows
to reality.

Iceland's just the first in the long line of sovereign default
nations that are really colonies of NATO, which is just
an umbrella(shell corporation) holding company for our colonies.

Russia has all but taken the major naval base away from us there.

and this is just the first. It's how empires pay their debts.
they trade away colonies. Taiwan's next. I bet the US asks
permission before transiting the Taiwan Straits now.

Mac, you need to stop talking nonsense if you wish to be taken seriously. NATO is an organization, not a government, corporation or a company. They have Member Nations not colonies. And they did not "trade away" Iceland to help pay its debts? How much do you think they got for Iceland anyway? How much will they get for Taiwan, enough to finish paying all its debts? I don't think so because Taiwan is not a member of NATO and Iceland is STILL a member of NATO.

Dar,

You need to really point out where I've been fundamentally wrong since Katrina.

Let's move to the strategic. Answer me this.

Do you really think that the US is not the Greatest Empire the World has ever known?

"And they did not "trade away" Iceland to help pay its debts?"

And you need to get that sentence correct.
Like this:

Iceland was abandoned bt the NATO countries when it defaulted.
Russia stepped in with the loan. Only then did the IMF(US out of $$$)
step in.

"How much do you think they got for Iceland anyway?"

The US "got" the ability to keep what it already had. How much for Taiwan? How about we get to keep one of our vehicle manufacturers.

China's not interested in destroying our military. They want to own it.

Note how no one's talking about china defaulting on anything.

I think I noted that NATO was a shell corp for the holdings in it's sphere of influence. Japan would be our "shell" in Asia.
But they want to own us too BTW.

"Iceland is STILL a member of NATO." We'll see. Hungary/the Ukraine
default in the next week or so.

We still haven't understod how costly our Georgian Fiasco of 080808
was.

NATO or gas. Pick One. Before Winter.

Except the Russian loan did not or at least has not yet happened. Iceland has gotten money from Norway and the IMF and I believe that they're talking to Sweden.

The deal was never actually announced, only that the two countries were discussing it. I can think of many reasons for Putin to decide the deal wasn't worth it. Iceland's finances were likely worse than he was led to believe, he's spent several tens of billions recently propping up his own economy, and it was a Naval _Air_ base whereas a naval _ship_ base would be much better for him, but he'd have to spend serious cash to build it.

BTW I'm not claiming that the Russian economy is about to tank or any such. He has still spent much more propping it up than was ever discussed for Iceland.

Hello Richard,

Nebulous describes it. We're only seeing the smoke.

Russia and the US should be in alliance.

... make every USA citizen a millionaire and your economy will boom.

I've already picked out the color of my Ferrari!

Gail sez:

This destructive cycle (the flight to dollars) will not continue indefinitely. At some point, central banks will sell US dollars, to try to get currencies more in sync.

As Brian T sez, it's another US- Treasury/Fed- generated 'investment' bubble ... so that won't work.

Hedge funds may begin to (will) fail, as the value of the assets sold is insufficient to cover the debt supporting the assets. Also, it is not clear that the US can continue indefinitely as the source of safety. The US will be issuing many billion dollars of debt to pay for all of the bailouts. At some point, it may be difficult to find buyers for all the debt.

In the financial world, every evanescent money phenomenon is marketed as a long term change in fortunes. Internet businesses will put 'brick and mortar' stores out of business ... forever. Real estate will 'go up' ... forever'. Oil prices will soon be over $300 a barrel and gold has no upper limit ... forever!

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the US economy is shrinking to a level relative to 'hard' capital; the nominal (cash) trade and government deficits are set to explode along with undeterminable unfunded liabilities; economic decision making is concentrating in the hands of fewer ... who are incompetents or criminals; administrative (discount) rates are set below the level of inflation and jobs are being shed by the tens of thousands, reducing both business and government revenue and driving the deflation cycle forward.

Obviously, the dollars is and will be strong ... forever! Why didn't I think of that? (Slaps self on side of head!)

The Treasury would like to see all the worlds' assets traded for dollars so it can sell it's vast amount of toxic debt into the dollar market. In that sense the Chinese State Newspaper mentioned in the main article is correct ... only for today. Tomorrow is another story.

Nobody can create debt to sell like the United States Government. Right now at the Treasury Department, there is an intern in a Ramones tee shirt slouched in a back room - not far from the loading dock - with laptop in lap and finger poised;

"How many zeros you want after that number, Boss?"

$9,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ...

Following the script as it has played out so far, as soon as the dollar reaches a level where people on the street who know and care little about such things remark about the dollar's strength in casual conversation ... the Treasury will dump and the whole bubble will deflate with a whoosh.

I know that, Gail the Actuary knows that, the Chinese know that ... the Treasury HAS to know that ... right?

Will this be the 'last bubble'? I don't know!!! I thought the Fannie/Freddie bailout was the 'last bailout'. I was so wrong!

The potential for greater bubbles is only dependent on how effectively fear can be monetized. The fear of losing all; 'Double or Nothing!'

'Double or nothing, again!' It's only Monopoly money, after all. Other peoples' Monopoly money.

Lessee .... Dot Com Stocks ... residential real estate ... commodities ... now US dollar. Each bubble coming harder and faster on the heels of the last, faster and faster ... so fast it's hard to keep track ... each crashing in turn. Obviously an endgame of sorts to the unlimited- credit money policy - it has to be! The cycle is faster, more destructive bubbles. These bubbles are having greater significance overseas; bad real estate loans brought the banking system to its knees worldwide, the commodities bubble put millions on the edge of starvation. What happens next? There are too many nukes and Kalashnikovs ... out in the great world to be gambling so recklessly ... like idiots.

Ironically, if the US cancelled the banking bailouts, negotiated its debt with overseas creditors, decentralized business and cut its umbilical to the national till, encouraged organized labor, rationed fuel and energy, put limits on entitlements and announced a multi- trillion dollar energy and transport infrastructure upgrade ... the dollar would tank. People love the fantasy that endless money growth will make us all winners in the economic lottery.

When the Ferrari bubble hits, I'm ready.

... now US dollar. Each bubble coming harder and faster on the heels of the last, faster and faster

Or, based on Evans' article, was the Euro a bubble? It changes so fast, it's hard to keep up. For now, I'm bearish on the Euro, but that could change in a few months.

Maybe the World cannot pay its debt. Then, inflation.

Regarding the enigma of when the dollar will finally succumb to financial reality, perhaps Minyanville.com's Mr. T Gold Indicator gives us a clue:

In a stunning development, the Minyanville Mr. T Gold Indicator has formed a rare double sell signal on the chart. [snip]

Why? How could this happen? Quit your jibba jabba and we'll tell you.

The first signal was generated when Mr. T began appearing in a national television spot for the World of Warcraft video game. [snip]

The second signal, formerly called the Hindenberg Omen until we realized there was another indicator already called the Hindenberg Omen, is now known as a Romney Retracement Parable. The Romney Retracement Parable occurred yesterday when gold bounced after the initial move down created by the World of Warcraft spots, but quickly collapsed after the following exchange between Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney and CNN's Wolf Blitzer . . .

Gold was $850 when this indicator flashed its warning and is bouncing around now in the low $700s. Based on the phenomenal success of the Mr. T's Gold Indicator, I propose the Supermodel Dollar Indicator. When supermodels begin demanding payment in dollars . . . SELL!!!

Full explanation of the Mr. T Gold Indicator here: http://www.minyanville.com/articles/index.php?a=15012

fat_tail_rider

hmm... I don't know, I find this article very British-centric but it's maybe me, I've read plenty of articles like that before the current crisis defending the British decision not to accept the Euro.

That's pretty rich. The last I heard was that China has plundered the US with their trade surplus, not the other way round.

But China lost hundreds of billions on their dollar assets.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/05/business/worldbusiness/05yuan.html

Actually, China is right. The United States has taken wealth from the rest of the world because the U.S. dollar has been the international standard. I don't know if I'd use the word "plundered" yet, but it's only a matter of time.

What you seem to not understand is that, first of all, most oil and other things must be bought in dollars and then exchanged for another currency. Because of this, Americans don't need to pay the price to exchange money, whereas all other countries do. This gives the United States benefits over other countries. In addition, the United States is able to tax most of the world, not just its own citizens. First, you need to think of inflation as a tax. If your $1,000 this year is still $1,000 next year, but only buys $900 worth of goods, then we can say that you have been taxed $100. This is a hidden tax, yet a potentially horrific one. When the Federal Reserve prints (or types into a computer) more money with no physical backing, and the amount of money in circulation thus increases, then prices rise. There is more money chasing fewer products. Because more than half of the U.S. dollars in existence are held outside of the United States (something few if any other countries enjoy), then when the Federal Reserve devalues the money (as it will through the bailout and other money printing), everyone who holds dollars - including those overseas - are essentially taxed. This would not be the case if the U.S. dollar were not the main international currency.

This is what the Chinese paper must have been talking about.

This is the genius of the dollar hegemony tax system. It is voluntary and hidden. No one is forcing foreigners to hold dollars or treasuries.

They do it more or less voluntarily. They could buy gold or other currencies as soon as the dollars arrive, but they choose to hold dollars. This tells me that they think dollars are the best option compared to the alternatives.

Or, more likely, they have ulterior motives such as keeping they own currencies from appreciating. If that is the case they are getting what they deserve when they hold depreciating dollars. Keeping one's currency artificially low is just as evil as depreciating it with the computerized printing press.

The other reason they hold dollars is that the American twin trade and fiscal deficits are so huge that no other store of value is large enough to absorb a conversion without causing instability in that market. The ensuing instability might result in a net loss for any country attempting it.

What you're saying, Z, is that in a "Global" economy you've gotta have a "Global" Currency. A "Clearinghouse," if you will. A traffic cop.

The Dollar is It. When "push" comes to, "shove," they all run home to "Mama," and, "Mama" is the U.S. Greenback.

We've, somehow, got to get the money from the manufacturing, oil-producing nations to the customer (laboring) nations. Somehow, we've got to organize a mass lending from the U.S., Euro, Chinese, Russian governments (taxpayers" to the Azerbaijani, Ukrainian, Hungarian banks.

Jeez. Well, nobody said it was all gonna be "Easy."

It was like when the US was running a big deficit with Japan in the 1980's. The wisdom was the US was getting the goods and the japs were getting bits of paper in return. The same thing is happening with China, and the Chinese have just realised.

Well, that deal seems to have worked out okay for the Japanese doesn't it?

Indeed. What really happened was that the Japanese modernised their entire country, the US got a load of cheap crap and sold off the working lives of their children in exchange.

Bargain.

This is my first post though I've read here since last March.

Do you think that the US Gov, having recognised that the game was almost up on exporting worthless dollars for solid commodities (inc FFs), is consciously taking advantage of its reserve currency position so as to create a mass destruction of emerging/commodity based economies. Then as the "last man standing" taking control of what it needs to keep Americans in the unreasonable wealth they have become accustomed to at the expense of much of the rest of the world.

Maybe the runnup in oil prices made the US Gov realise time was running out, and that they needed a paradigm shift in relative wealth of nations to protect the USA.

ie if the 25% of world resources consumed by the Americans who make up 5% of world population must continue to grow to keep the American way of life, then by reducing the wealth of the other 95% or even worse reducing the other 95% population through poverty and war, the US government can make sure that in the future the USA can grow its consumption to 30%, 40% or even 50% of total world resources, and the American dream is alive and well. At least until Global Warming fries everyone.

I'm not sure that is the way I see it.

I think they may have seen that the time was running out on exporting worthless dollars for solid commodities, and decided to do as much as they could now, to max out the credit cards, before time ran out. I am not inclined to think that people conspired to hurt other countries. I think that more likely they convinced themselves that the countries would truly be better off if they borrowed a lot of money and emulated the "developed countries". Of course, the time when commodity growth could be cheaply expanded ran out, making it much more difficult for these countries to repay their debts.

You might be interested in a post I wrote quite a while ago with Shunyata. It was called Monetary Policy and Weaseling Out of Debt.

I don't think it's been as blatantly planned out as what you say, but the fact is that the US Government (and others around the world) will try nearly whatever it can to keep the standard of living from dropping in the short term. Just as much as this means taking wealth from other countries, it also includes taking potential wealth from future generations.

Just like a company that doesn't care about the fate of the world, but only cares about this quarter's revenue or its current stock price, the government and most people in general are blind to future problems. They just want to get profits now.

Just think of how easily people can say "unsustainable". Nearly everything we do has long been known to be "unsustainable". In school, I learned about "renewable" and "nonrenewable" resources, and I knew that oil was nonrenewable. But that simple fact doesn't dissuade anyone from slowing their usage of nonrenewable resources until a crisis appears and they don't have the means to consume like before.

There is no question that the government is partially responsible for the commodity price collapse. The futures markets and naked short selling show that you can sell massive amounts of paper that represent commodities even if demand for those commodities is exploding. Take silver, for instance. We're currently going through the largest shortage of silver in history, as far as I know. I tried to order some today, and the company said that they might be able to get it to me by April of next year, and if not, I could get my money back. (Imagine if your local gas station told you that you could reserve your 10 gallons of oil - that you need to get to work today - for delivery in April!) Does that situation seem natural to you? Normally, with that demand, silver would be at $50, not $10. But there's much more paper silver out there than real silver, and the paper silver is being sold like at no other time in history. However, there will come a time when more people want to take delivery of silver (cashing in on those promises). This will crack the COMEX. It's like in 1971. Under the Bretton Woods system, the foreign countries could exchange their U.S. dollars for gold at a certain, unchanging rate. Well, there were more dollars (or paper promises) for gold than there was gold. France realized this and started demanding gold. This alerted the world that the gold price had been unfairly suppressed. Nixon then nullified the dollars' convertability into gold. This will happen again with the suppressed price! In 1970, gold was $35 per ounce (fixed). In 1980, gold was over $600 per ounce. Even when it was realized that gold was overbought and the price came down later, it still never went back down into the double digits. I expect that soon, the triple digits will seem very low. This price does not even take into account inflation. When you add that in, it becomes very easy to see why the government and corporations wanted to get the prices of commodities as low as possible in preparation for an explosion.

Many good points, but I don't believe for a moment that we're experiencing a silver, gold, platinum, or copper shortage. There is a silver coin shortage, but I can buy 1000oz silver bars at only a small premium over spot from a number of sources.

That being said, I am profoundly concerned about the weak fundamentals of the USD. It's just that right now, I don't see any appealing alternatives, in precious metals or forex.

You will notice I purposely didn't quote the title of the Ambrose Evans article--thought he was going overboard.

The whole issue of the emerging markets defaulting seems to be a valid one, and one that we have not looked at much on TOD.

We don't think about demand being propped up by credit, but it is, because without credit, a lot of businesses using oil could not exist, and people earning salaries that allow them to buy gasoline or diesel would not exist.

Credit also props up supply, because it is used by the companies that drill the wells, extract the oil, and transport petroleum products to customers. (Some oil companies, more than others, of course.)

When the credit bubble breaks, we lose both the demand and supply. The demand side is probably bigger, at least at this stage of the bubble.

I agree with your statements above. However, in the longer-term I think the credit-crunch impact on supply will be even greater than its impact on demand. In particular, new energy (whether wind, solar, nuclear, geothermal or whatever) needs to be financed, both with equity and with debt. With both equity and debt markets in disarray, it seems to me that the only plausible source of large-scale financing is through printing money.

Obama talks a lot about his energy program that will create five million new jobs in the renewable and alternative (and presumably nuclear) fields. Where is the funding coming from to finance all the investment ("investment" in the strict economic sense) that will be needed to create these five million jobs coming from?

More and bigger deficits. In my opinion, we have hardly begun to see the expansion in U.S. deficits that will be coming over the next four years, regardless of who is elected president.

It seems to me that we need to look at future development in terms of the resources it will take to produce this development. I am not as convinced that long-term debt will work for this purpose. I should write a post trying to explain better why. Long-term debt works well when available resources are expanding, but much less well when available resources are shrinking.

I expect that the use of long term debt will greatly contract (nearly disappear), as lenders gradually come to realize that with shrinking resources, it is very difficult for debtors to pay back their loans with interest. The risk of default becomes very high. By the time the risk of default is properly priced into the system, interest rates become so high that virtually no investment can make a high enough profit to afford the loans. When this happens, most financing has to be done through savings, or through government programs (using tax revenue to buy resources for development).

I don't see continuing big deficits for very long. At some point, the fiction that anything is being accomplished by raising debt and buying it back ourselves evaporates.

I see big deficits continuing and increasing for the U.S. In all probability, they will get as big relative to GDP as the deficits during World War Two did. Deflationary winds are blowing up a storm, and to combat deflation I can see a two trillion dollar deficit in fiscal 2009 followed by a bigger one in 2010.

World War II was financed in the U.S. with bonds that had interest rates of 2 and 1/2% and 2 and 3/4%--which is rather remarkable, when one thinks about it. I don't know at what rate our future deficits will be financed, but the Treasury can always issue more debt (to be purchased by the Fed) to pay the interest on this new debt. A Ponzi scheme you say? Perhaps, but a Ponzi game can go on for a decade or more. IMO, more printing of money is in our future, either to prevent or to combat a debt deflation.

The only reasonable way to finance them is against direct savings - not against future growth in revenues. That brings us back to hard caps on the scale of the economy at least in emergy terms. Hard and declining caps. Nothing else will be credible and trustworthy. People will be arguing what descent path is credible. And if there is a way to make it more physical; maybe people will rather take chickens in pay than money. Hard to figure.

cfm in Gray, ME

Some Random Thoughts About Interest Rates

In all probability, they will get as big relative to GDP as the deficits during World War Two did. Deflationary winds are blowing up a storm, and to combat deflation I can see a two trillion dollar deficit in fiscal 2009 followed by a bigger one in 2010.

America ran up a big deficit during the war, but we borrowed the money from ourselves. When the war ended, we had the only functioning industrial plant, we had millions of capable workers with technology advances for them to leverage. We also had a market for our goods; a strong domestic market of the millions of new families ready for the middle class, and millions of destitute Europeans who needed ... everything.

Some of the Congressional bodget managers have been speaking on C-Span and appearing at hearings on Capital Hill. The situation is sobering ... yet the Congress continues to rubber stamp the banking industry's demands for cash. People keeps speaking truth to power about the deficits, but this falls on deaf ears.

The long term interest rate issue is very interesting.

Photobucket

Blue areas are periods of expansion.

This is courtesy Bob Hoye @ Prudent Bear;

http://www.prudentbear.com/index.php/commentary/guestcommentary?art_id=1...

History tells us long term borrowing will be expensive. While 'long' rates currently climb toward double digits, the shorter rates are being held to a level close to zero. The issue is how much will it cost to keep short rates low? During the past month the coordinated central banks injected at least one trillion dollars into the banking system worldwide attempting to keep interbank lending rates from climbing above the funds rate. What this says is there is a strong tendency for short rates to trend higher all things being equal; the 'natural' short rate is probably two or three hundred basis points or more above the established Fed funds rate/Treasury bill rate.

The natural rate being what short funds would cost without massive Fed borrowing and spending to hold it down.

As short rates increase, the penalty to the government becomes severe, as more and more borrowing is falling toward the short end of the debt spectrum. The $11-12 trillion deficit @ 1% is a modest $110 billion a year. This amount can be borrowed, too ... which makes it like 'free money!'. At 5% that amount jumps to a greater figure than all discretionary spending and almost equal to the defense budget. The Treasury's unpalatable choice is to either pay down interest rates by throwing trillions at the banking system or paying more interest in the bond market.

Since both liquidity injections and interest on debt are added to the deficit ... the deficit cycle becomes self- reinforcing; another positive feedback loop.

If all rates trend higher - for an (hyper-)inflation premium - 10% interest on $12 trillion is over a trillion dollars ... over a third of the US government budget. All this leaves out the unfunded expenditures such as Medicare or swap liabilities 'popping up' out of some of these entities the Treasury is taking over and assuming fiscal responsibility for.

One comes away from Mr. Hoye's charts with the realization that long term rates decline in economic booms ... as borrowers believe that longer term prosperity will continue to finance borrowing costs out of future growth. This belief has mostly taken place in the context of energy constraints. These constraints were not increased costs or demand competition, but rather the absense of tools to transform or even recognize the utility of the resource in the first place! Mot knowing you can burn that black gooey stuff is the same as not having it, in a matter of speaking. Despite these constraints ... finance bubbles formed.

There are a number of (hasty) conclusions to be drawn from this, but I think it's a good topic for thought.

Another take on the 'virtual laborers' aspect of petroleum leads us to China. The economy there is very much different from ours in the US. Theirs is by design a kind of 'make work' system that is set to busy as many hands as possible for all sorts of economic and social reasons. Their government creates markets for goods and provides financing so as to have customers for Chinese products; they build factories and even cities with as much hand work as reasonable. The Chinese will accept certain 'losses' on some transactions as long as employment continues to rise. This contrasts to the US which has automated millions of workers out of high- paying jobs and replaced them with oil- and electric machinery. Good for us; no strikes, no unions, no labor problems ... Unfortunately, these 'virtual employees' don't pay taxes or buy products and depress the economic value of those who do.

It is hard to put a price on this oil- for human worker swap, but the overall cost has to be very high.

Your are right. The interest will quickly kill us if we try to borrow our way out of our problems.

Also, not hiring workers looked like a good solution for a while, but it doesn't make sense in the long term.

Sorry about the crappy charts. I have to work on the image hosting.

The outcome of this catastrophe is obviously unclear ... but the craft method (as opposed to industrial, assembly line processing) with great local diversity of businesses and products, large human inputs versus machine inputs and some sort of merchantilism tying it all together seems to be a way forward.

Lots of currencies would mean work for lots of bankers to make change.

Craft method doesn't necessarily mean making wooden knobs by hand. Helicopters are made by craft methods. So are satellites. We are being killed by 'Rock Bottom Low Prices'.

A lot of what we are enduring now is a by-product of the meatpacking industry.

The size and scale of the (Union) stockyards, along with technological advancements in rail transport and refrigeration, allowed for the creation of some of America's first truly global companies led by entrepreneurs such as Gustavus Franklin Swift and Philip Danforth Armour. The mechanized process with its killing wheel and conveyors helped inspire the automobile assembly line. In addition, hedging transactions by the stockyard companies played a key role in the establishment and growth of the Chicago-based commodity exchanges and futures markets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Stock_Yards

This all makes sense, somehow ...

"...as lenders gradually come to realize that with shrinking resources..."

Not going to happen anytime soon, Gail. The recession/depression will hide the realities of resource depletion from anyone who wants to believe in more growth, and that will be almost everyone. They have so many ready-made excuses (it's the environmentalists, it's the credit crisis, it's lack of demand, lack of investment, etc) for why supplies fall. We will inflate to fix this, and when it doesn't work, it will only be because we didn't inflate enough, so then we will inflate more...