<The 2008 IEA WEO - The World Energy Model and Energy Demand The Oil Drum DrumBeat: November 14, 2008>

124 comments on Breaking News: EPA Ruling - Coal Plants Must Limit CO2?

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enemy of state on November 13, 2008 - 8:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Dave, I'm skeptical about the "hybrid" solar/fossil power plants. Assuming capital cost is minimized by using solar steam to displace FF steam, when available, the turbine design parameters must be altered to accept input from either source. My guess is that that would lead to a lowering of thermodynamic efficiency. Hopefully the sun would shine often enough to make up for the reduced efficiency when it isn't. Otherwise it is pure greenwashing. The alternative, separate turbines increases the capital cost, and other then some shared powerlines, and transformers isn't really different from a separately located solar power plant.

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DaveMart on November 13, 2008 - 8:18pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Dunno, but I believe at least in the case of natural gas there is already some experience in the field, as solar plants do not have storage on the current designs and NG was used to overcome intermittency.
I haven't managed to dig our full details, but I believe Solar One operates in this way.
Certainly the plans for Solar power from Algeria for Europe could more accurately be said to be for natural gas, supplemented by a bit of solar power - I am very dubious on that one, as the efficiency of piping the gas to the home where it is to be used and then using a modern combined boiler is so high, let alone using fuel cells as they are starting to do in Japan.

I think the critical thing though is the qualification I put in, that it may help in 'certain areas'.
The solar resource would need to be really good.

As a strong supporter of renewables I get a bit irritated when their present state of readiness to run large parts of the economy are grossly exaggerated.

This kind if idea is 5 years away from even beginning to make a substantial contribution, as the pilots are not done yet.
As for people who are gaily planning on rolling out solar etc for base load anytime soon......

The choices at the moment are coal, the old fashioned dirty sort, nuclear, and wind can help a bit.
This may change, likely will, but it will take a fair bit of time.

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Will Stewart on November 14, 2008 - 9:10am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

solar plants do not have storage on the current designs

While you are regularly spot-on on the vast majority of points, I'd like to point out some solar thermal designs with storage. While one is now going operational, others are primarily at the pilot stage, and show promise to being ramped up to commercial levels.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/oct08/6851

http://www.nrel.gov/csp/troughnet/thermal_energy_storage.html

http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/solarthermal/NSTTF/salt.htm

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lengould on November 14, 2008 - 9:15am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

http://www.nrel.gov/csp/pdfs/34440.pdf

Assessment of Parabolic Trough and Power Tower Solar Technology - Cost and Performance Forecasts - Sargent & Lundy LLC Consulting Group Chicago, Illinois

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DaveMart on November 14, 2008 - 5:33pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Apologies for the somewhat loose use of terms.
I should have clarified that there are several systems which have good prospects for the storage of solar thermal energy over the period of a few hours - essentially to compensate for diurnal variability.
Amongst them are molten salt storage, flywheel storage, hot gravel and concrete storage, and pumped water storage.
I compacted the situation to some extent by the use of the term 'current' - by which I meant to indicate that without the additional cost of storage, or the arguable and yet to be proved cost advantages (Ausra) as this precise moment solar power stands or falls on it's performance without storage.
Personally I am optimistic on the potential for diurnal storage.

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124 comments on Breaking News: EPA Ruling - Coal Plants Must Limit CO2?

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