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213 comments on Electrical Supply: Time, Scale, and the Need for Decision in Planning Future Power Plants

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Positive_Phototaxis on November 17, 2008 - 12:26pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Buying a Honda Insight saved me $10k right up front, and is saving me $30k+ over the ensuing 15 years.

I'd say that's rather optimistic. Ignoring the "saved up front" (you could save the entire $30k by walking... does that count as "saved"?), $30k over 15 years is highly unlikely. Even with $4/gal gasoline you would have to put on far more miles than that vehicle is likely to survive... and I doubt you're considering the fact that the battery won't last nearly that long and is quite expensive to replace.

I'm not knocking your choice... I drive a hybrid myself... but they aren't anywhere near that good.

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Will Stewart on November 17, 2008 - 2:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Ignoring the "saved up front" (you could save the entire $30k by walking... does that count as "saved"?)

Can't ignore, as I'm not in a walkable neighborhood (we have a small sheep farm), so the $10k savings (compared to a $30k SUV) is valid. The batteries in my Honda Insight are now warrantied to 10 years, or 150,000 miles.

At $4/gal gas and 15,000 mi/yr, a 2WD Ford Expedition burns through $4286 worth of fuel, while the Insight uses $1132, which is a savings of over $3100. Multiply that by just 10 years (150,000 miles), and that shows savings of over $31,000. Along with the $10k initial savings, that amounts to savings over $41,000, or the cost of a PV system noted in the article.

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Positive_Phototaxis on November 17, 2008 - 5:17pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Can't ignore, as I'm not in a walkable neighborhood (we have a small sheep farm), so the $10k savings (compared to a $30k SUV) is valid.

Of course you can ignore it because you're comparing apples to oranges. Did you "save" fifty million by not buying a fighter jet? (And think of the cost of all that jet fuel you saved!)

The batteries in my Honda Insight are now warrantied to 10 years, or 150,000 miles.

Good luck getting the same effectiveness at 100k that you got when they were new... but that hardly matters since you'll have to go much farther than 150k to save $30k... and you've still replacing that battery at least once in the timeframe discussed (if the car makes it that far in the first place).

At $4/gal gas and 15,000 mi/yr, a 2WD Ford Expedition burns through $4286 worth of fuel, while the Insight uses $1132, which is a savings of over $3100.

Again... a poor comparison. Do you compare how much you save over buying a motor home too? The two vehicles simply aren't comparable. Can the SUV owner count how much he "saved" because he didn't have to hire a taxi for the four kids you can't fit in the Insight? How about the U-Haul rentals he "saved" because of the loads you can't carry?

A valid comparison would be how much you save over an otherwise similar car. The Civic hybrid costs thousands more than the non-hybrid Civic... it has the same passenger capacity and better luggage capacity but still gets 30+ mpg. How much did you "save" there?

Heck... you "lost" money compared to the guy who bought a 1990 CRX-HF. He had a pretty close mpg and "saved" $18000 over what you paid for the Insight.

And... of course... I just filled up my hybrid at $1.77/gal.

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Will Stewart on November 17, 2008 - 6:33pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

It may be different where you are, but around here (until relatively recently), commuters bought the biggest vehicle they could afford. The traffic is packed with big crew cab pickups and SUVs with one commuter occupant and no company logo. No fighter jets or motor homes are used as commuters in my area, perhaps you live in an unusual locale. So I made a choice not to purchase a truck, and based my comparison on these parameters.

At 150k miles, I assume the SUV/Pickup is pretty much on it's last legs, so any analysis would need to show the purchase of another vehicle. 1990 CRX-HF was not available when I bought my car. My analysis showed that I assuming an average of $4/gal, I had saved over $41K. Sure, gas is down now, but I don't think there are many here who would believe it to last very long at that price, and certainly not 10-15 years (unless they are from CERA).

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Positive_Phototaxis on November 17, 2008 - 11:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

It may be different where you are, but around here (until relatively recently), commuters bought the biggest vehicle they could afford. The traffic is packed with big crew cab pickups and SUVs with one commuter occupant and no company logo. No fighter jets or motor homes are used as commuters in my area, perhaps you live in an unusual locale. So I made a choice not to purchase a truck, and based my comparison on these parameters.

You're honestly going to pretend that the decision for you was between the jumbo SUV and the Insight? If no Insight was available you wouldn't have looked at a Mazda 3 or a Toyota Corolla? Please.

At 150k miles, I assume the SUV/Pickup is pretty much on it's last legs

Depends on the same factors (make/model/etc) that impact smaller cars. You certainly could buy a reliable SUV if that was on your list. And again... 150k could easily be the lifespan of the Insight. My brother has one and it hasn't been bulletproof.

1990 CRX-HF was not available when I bought my car.

Oh please (again). There was most certainly a reliable used small car available with a tiny engine that got an mpg significantly closer to the hybrid than to the Suburban and for a small fraction of the cost of a new Insight.

My analysis showed that I assuming an average of $4/gal, I had saved over $41K

Then your "analysis" was a con game you played on yourself to justify the expense. That's ok... it's how car salesmen have made a living for decades. You spent more than you would have on some alternatives and justififed it to yourself based on some inflated calculation of what you would save.

, gas is down now, but I don't think there are many here who would believe it to last very long at that price

It did the last time this happened.

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Will Stewart on November 18, 2008 - 7:02am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

There was most certainly a reliable used small car available with a tiny engine that got an mpg significantly closer to the hybrid than to the Suburban and for a small fraction of the cost of a new Insight

An examination of the cost of used vehicles in the year 2000 and their life expectancies is something that perhaps you would like to undertake; I simply showed the difference between the choice a large number of commuters were making and what I made.

, gas is down now, but I don't think there are many here who would believe it to last very long at that price

It did the last time this happened.

You may choose to believe that gas prices won't go up again for a long time, but the whole purpose of TOD is to alert people to the peaking in oil production and the effect it will have on price, so that we can understand the effect our consumption choices will have on the economy and our own financial wellbeing.

Hence, I stand by my original statement; "In looking at the big picture, Americans have wasted small fortunes on trivial luxuries and failed to invest in intelligent choices."

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213 comments on Electrical Supply: Time, Scale, and the Need for Decision in Planning Future Power Plants

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