In a global collapse, there is nobody to turn to.Some governments will be able to keep their head above water for a while, but eventually, supplies, resources, and capital will simply run out.

The problems (and this has to do with post- WWII economies failing) have tended to arise not from outside influences ENTERING into a country like Peru or Argentina, but rather outside capital LEAVING from the country in question. What happens next was that the government is discredited and the ruling party either stripped from office or forced out of the country, as was the case with Peru.

I don't know what's going to happen. I can see Obama and the 'Obama Collection of Powerful White Men' getting on a plane for a long vacation in Aruba while seething multitudes march on the Capital and the White House banging on pots and pans! I can also see the soldiers and police standing around on the sidewalk and watching ... or charging the crowds with tear gas and other weapons.

In this world, civilization is always an inch away from chaos.

The experience of European powers and their colonies was such that maintaining them was far more costly than letting them go. Even without warfare, the distance management and monetary friction effects along with corruption problems made colonies (or former colonies such as Indonesia) extraordinarily expensive. Social stability in a place like Indonesia after the currency crash and panic in 1998 came not from outside developed countries generally, but from within.

Sources of social stability are regional and local governments, culture, customs, family structures, religion, local trade patterns and influence of authority figures such as teachers, police officers and other 'services' providers. These people and institutions won't disappear, even if there is no money.

At the local level, arming oneself won't be that costly, even far into the future ... unless you want to use armored vehicles or helicopters. Firearms will wind up being 'just one more trade good' in the flea- market economy!

Mobility, is why they will steal your car first.

There are fewer bad people in the world than good people. But they are more numerous than you can imagine. The jails and prisons are full, there are many felons on probation, there are more criminals who have not been arrested yet than all the prisoners and probationers combined. When times get tough will we be able to maintain our prisons? We certainly won't be able to build more unless we go back to the type used in World War II.

The largest percentage of felons are convicted of drug crimes. Drugs work for them as long as they have a place to spend the money they make from drugs. When there are few places to spend money, they will switch from drugs to theft. That theft will focus on goods they can barter, just like the pawnshop system.

Criminals run in families. Ask anyone involved in the prison system. They will tell you is not uncommon to have two or even three generations incarcerated at the same time or in the same year. Crime, like prostitution will never go away. It is a defect of the human species.

The good people will be heros. The bad people will take advantage of them.

Who does the "protestor" thank?

I think you have to separate the Nation State's political independence from the individual's civil liberties. Soldiers are useful for the former but often harmful to the latter. Civil liberties are protected when used and defended...mostly by lawyers and preachers and ordinary folks.

What you see as self-deception and naivete, may just be a different perspective.

Umm, Can't remember the last German, Japanese, or Russian invasions of the US.

Except maybePearl Harbor, and even then, it seems difficult to imagine a tiny island nation subduing the US to the point where we would be speaking Japanese. Hell, the French beat the English, lived right next door, and still couldn't completely impose their language on the British. Ridiculous.

Now Chinese, that may be different.

710,

You have a number of straw men, you conflate several things and, finally, you didn't really read what I said. Being one's brother's keeper is not the same thing as "working together."

Yes, a lot more people may turn into the bums category through no fault of their own. But, a lot are currently bums and have no intention of doing anything different. I'm perfectly willing to let them crash and burn. However, the new bums will have had an opportunity to prepare for their own survival. This could have been as simple as finding like-minded people and purchasing a retreat or learning how to grow their own food. Perhaps, they believed the MSM BS. I have no sympathy for this.

Todd

If you aren't willing to protect your loved ones with your life

It's there that I suspect the difference lies between your viewpoint and those who are very skeptical of survivalism. Firstly, if you put your hand on your heart can you honestly say you don't mean "If you aren't willing to protect your loved ones by taking the lives of others who you believe to deserve it"? (I don't doubt that you sincerely believe you'll only take the lives of those who in your opinion do deserve it, and indeed that's what you'll do. The point is the "in your opinion".) The only situation in which you lose your life is if you fail.

I'm mildly against large numbers of armed individuals who aren't part of, eg, a police force, and hence constantly monitored for erratic behaviour is because I have a very, very low opinion of human nature. Not that people are stupid, but they are emotional and excellent "self-justification machines" (ie, they have something they want to do and come up with clever reasons why it's the right thing to do). Having seen gun enthusiasts, eg, saying they'd like to take up a sniper position outside their marina and pick off anyone who they don't think meets their personal standards for owning a boat, I tend to think that the question is "is the half-life of a human being deciding they're gonna deal directly with people they disagree with long enough for the positive to outweigh the negative?" I haven't seen anything recently to persuade me, even in my own behaviour, that it is.

(The "mildly against" is that I suspect that, even in the UK, the boat has already sailed on the issue and too many people fondly fantasise about themselves as their local sheriff. I try and avoid getting into discussions about guns because I'd much rather be involved in more productive discussion. But the self-deception, IMO, in the quote above just annoyed me.)

Hey JRC,

Get in touch, I'm sure we and our wives have much in common.

CJ

Not a clue on specific models although I've seen some nice ones in various places. The good ones seem to start at $150 and have a single pump to fire. A guy at a local range recently had a $2000 on that supposedly would shoot 1in at 50 yards. I have a very long barreled 22 for this purpose if I need it, its alot cheaper...LOL.

Might want to check out the reviews at Cabelas (www.cabelas.com) before deciding on a model. Alot of guys I know, myself included, buy from online stores because the selection locally is pretty limited. Midway {www.midwayusa.com) is pretty good too.

When things get really bad, the key to survival is hidden storage. It does no good to accumulate food, water, medicine, weapons, ammunition etc., if one criminal can carry it all out in his truck.

Hidden storage requires a substantial investment. You need a lot of cubic feet and it can't be in your house. The best container for hidden storage is a steel storage container.

http://www.eagleleasing.com/containers/containers.html?gclid=CNv-_oH5mpc...

If you can't afford a new one, there are some used ones around that often only cost hundreds of dollars.

It must be waterproofed and buried below ground. A hatch should be installed in the roof on the container. This hatch must be incredibly well hidden. You will have to get creative if you expect it not to be discovered. You should only access the container to add or remove items during the night when the moon is covered by clouds. The darker the better. You also don't want others who you might team up with to know about your container. That could be a real problem later on.

Even though I said earlier you should not store supplies in your house, there is a need for a small storage container inside. This inside storage container should be well hidden and contain a modest amount of supplies. That and your kitchen shelves and closets will consist of your working stock. The hidden cache in your house is your decoy. It is obvious to a thief if you are living in some sort of self-sufficient environment that you must have a cache somewhere. A thief will not simply walk away. They will force you to give up what they believe you must have. Better to sacrifice 5% of your supplies than 100%.

A huge advantage to a large steel underground storage container, besides the ability to store an immense amount of personal supplies, is the ability to buy in bulk items that can be used to barter. However, no matter what else you do, you should give outsiders the appearance that you are barely getting by. For example, if you do have weapons that you carry or keep in your house, they should look like crap. The outward appearance does not affect the weapon's ability to work properly. It does indicate that you probably don't have more.

Bottom line, you have to think like a criminal in order to survive.

I shoot an old 1985 Feinwerkbau 124 match air rifle with a peep-sight. Very accurate out to about 50 meters. Most of my shots are between 20-30 meters and it is "bang, headshot" deadly at that range. Mostly for rabbits, squirrel, and pigeon, although we used it to euthanize a raccoon we trapped (ironically enough, in a Have-a-Heart trap).

You hope.

Excellent advice. Life is also pretty damn good when you can fall asleep with your arms wrapped around the one you love.

Peace be with you too, Don.

Many thanks for your kind words Don and I am indeed curious about many things, hence my reading addiction you could say :-) Sounds like you've lived quite an interesting life, out in the woods, under the stars.