33 comments on EU energy consensus - trending in the right direction
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33 comments on EU energy consensus - trending in the right direction
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GAIA Host Collective
It would be good if the US under Obama took over Europe's default status as the climate leader. The EU seems to cling to wrong ideas and ignore good ones. For example I thought the UK was supposed be installing one offshore wind turbine a week. That's going to take some catching up to keep their word. France has cheap electricity and low per capita emissions but other EU countries seem to have their blinkers on and won't acknowledge it. Germany spends a huge amount on solar feed-in tariffs when the country doesn't really suit solar. Coal is making a comeback in several EU countries. They persist with CDM offsets which some believe are largely illusory. Poland and Czech Republic won't play ball with auctioned carbon permits.
Over to you Obama to show how it's done.
China is the new climate leader. Once-child policy having reduced billions of tons of carbon and also leading in wind and some sectors of solar, and having a massive nuclear power plan. China has also reforested huge areas of land. What is even more impressive is that China is still a poor country, yet they are actively taking big steps to save the climate. Yes, it is true that coal is still very important, and China's coal production in the future will probably emit more CO2 than the all of EU's total CO2 emissions, but it is still important to give China huge credit for all the steps it has taken.
"China is the new climate leader."
LOL!
2004 "China is the dominant player. The country is on track to add 562 coal-fired plants - nearly half the world total of plants expected to come online in the next eight years. India could add 213such plants; the US, 72."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p01s04-sten.html
2007 "where demand for power is growing rapidly, such as India and China, coal is booming. Energy lore has it that in China a new coal-burning plant is fired up every week. What is certain is that China has become a net importer of coal for the first time this year. India's imports have been growing steadily for the past 20 years."
http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10145492
2007 "The total capacity of Chinese fossil-fired power plants in operation or under construction as displayed in the new McIlvaine Chinese Utility Plans database is 699 700 MW. By 2011 China will have more coal-fired capacity than the US and Europe."
http://www.engineerlive.com/Power-Engineer/Maintenance/Capacity_of_chine...
I guess they really are the new climate leader in CO2, particulate matter, and soot in general.
China may be trying very hard to be a climate leader, but the sad fact is that's impossible with very high growth rates in an industrial based (ie relatively energy intensive) economy. No government, not even the hard government that China has, can manage that kind of growth with respect to stabilizing GhG emissions. Much less reducing it on an absolute level.
Check the average take home pay in these countries to understand why they "won't play ball", or that of their pensioners. The energy rates are nearly market rates!!!!
France wants all to play ball because she has this part of the equation benefiting her (plenty of carbon credits to sell). I would love to see (well I already know what the reaction would be based on US behavior) how France or Germany would react to such a "game plan" if their energy infrastructure mirrored that of Poland.
NO DEAL, would be the answer.
Change needs to come, but these countries are not wealthy enough to be buying carbon credits just to satisfy EU money making schemes.
How about telling Poland to scrap that useless idea of building stadium for European Football Championships in 2012 and instead put the money into upgrading power plants or building wind power farms. This might do more good.
Boof,
In 2008, UK started construction of about 650 turbines, 300 of which have been completed. Another 1500 were approved in 2007-2008 but construction has not begun. There appear to be about 2,000 turbines in planning stage since 2007 that have not been approved to this date. If about one third of these are off-shore that's a lot more than one a week.
http://www.bwea.com/ukwed/construction.asp
Neil did you catch this amazing local news story? http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2440907.htm
The brown coal (lignite) powered aluminium smelter at Portland Victoria will probably get free carbon permits under the 2010 trading scheme since they are special in some way. The wind turbine manufacturer in the same town will probably close down since our new 'green' government can't get its renewable energy policy sorted out. Both Europe and Australia have botched climate policy so far.
Boof,
Yes I watched it yesterday. Lots of speculation about "soft targets" and who is going to get free permits when actually no decisions have been announced. Any reduction from 1990 levels is going to be large because we are 8% above that level now. With luck, aluminium smelting industry in Australia will close because of drop in demand.
It would be tragic if we loose any wind manufacturing capacity because of the time it's taking the government to get renewable assistance programs in place. At least the industry has the targets and dates. SA has already reached the 2020 target.
One positive development has been that the solar PV program seems to be working in spite of a cap at $100,000 family income.
Is SA's achievement nameplate or average output? During the March heatwave my relatives went to take the sea air next to one wind farm (Wattle Pt) which was becalmed therefore not driving aircons.
I think Adelaide had 2000 people install solar PV because of the 46c /kwh feed-in tariff, not the means tested rebate. When they get 200,000 homes on PV that will be progress.
Boof, European carbon targets do take into account the existing situation, you know. Those with lower incomes are allowed a lot of leeway to grow; those with low emissions can't be expected to lower them as massively as those with high ones, but should at least make an effort, and so forth.
Coal is cheap only if you ignore the indirect (non-monetary) costs, of course.
As to UK offshore wind, see the other answer above, but note that the UK has been building about 100-200 MW of offshore wind per year for the past 3-4 years, which does come out to at least 1 turbine per week, and the prospects for growth are very real. The construction contracts for Greater Gabbard (500 MW) Thanet (300 MW) and a few others have been signed recently.
I think Denmark globally was the first country ever to develop modern windmills which were intended to yield a substantial part of our energy production. After approx. 40 years of intelligent scientific work and massiv subventions (60.000.000.000 DKK or approx. 10 billion USD) our 5.000 windmills only produce 2,6 % of our gross energy consumption (2006). And futhermore, because the windmills function according to the will of the wind we only use 50 % of the electricity produced by the windmills. We often have to sell the energy at very, very low prices or simply give it away to those who may want it. Please, forget that the wind in any sensible way can be a solution of anything that has with energy to do. It can however nurish some romantic dreams.
our 5.000 windmills only produce 2.6 % of our gross energy consumption (2006)
Denmark produced 25,800 TJ of wind power and consumed 121,857 TJ of electricity in 2007, which is almost 20% of gross electrical energy consumption [1]
Total renewable energy production is 130,200 TJ and total energy consumption is 668,846 TJ, which is almost 20% of gross energy consumption (same reference as above).
Yes, Denmark sells excess energy to Norwegian hydropower (used as mass energy storage of excess wind power when wind conditions are high), and Denmark buys back when wind power conditions are low, also reaping income from transferring power from Norway/Sweden to Germany and other destinations. To use a figure 2.6% is misleading, unless you provide the rest of the discussion.
The Danish "Energistyrelse" (Official Energy Department) gives us the correct figures of the windmills here:
http://www.ens.dk/sw14080.asp
The fact that Denmark only uses about 50 % of the current produced by windmills is proved here:
http://www.reo.dk/
The Danish "Energistyrelse" (Official Energy Department) gives us the correct figures of the windmills here:
http://www.ens.dk/sw14080.asp
That's the first link I provided above. Do you have any issues with the numbers I provided? If so, do you understand why the 2.6% figure you quoted is misleading?
The fact that Denmark only uses about 50 % of the current produced by windmills is proved here:
http://www.reo.dk/
I'm afraid I don't speak Danish, so can't read that site. It appears to be a pro-nuclear website that has a subscription.
I would not be surprised if Denmark directly used 50% of their wind power and indirectly used the rest when buying back from hydro plants in other parts of Scandinavia. Wind and hydro go well together, as excess wind can be 'stored' via offsetting or actual increase in the hydro reservoir, and then used when demand is higher than the current wind supply. Even excess nuclear power in the region is stored during the night in hydro for resell during the day.
For comparison, in 2007 alone Denmark spent US$0.6B on coal and US$5B on oil. Compared to that, US$10B over 40 years - US$0.25B/yr - is fairly minor. (EIA figures)
Moreover, Denmark's coal consumption has fallen by 40% in the last 10 years, due overwhelmingly to its thermal-generated electricity production falling 30% (-12GWh/yr) as a result of production from wind (+10GWh/yr).
In those 10 years, wind has allowed Denmark to consume roughly 30M fewer tons of coal, or about US$1.5B less in fuel costs (assuming avg. price of US$50/ton).
$10B is a big number, but so are the numbers on the other side of the argument.
Denmark consumes about 0.85 quads of energy. Wind produces about 10GWh/yr in the country, or 0.035 quads. 0.035 / 0.85 = 4.2%.
However, that 4.2% is misleading, as 3 btu of coal can only produce 1 btu of electricity, so 1 wind btu = 3 thermal btu. Taking that into account, wind is responsible for about 12% of Denmark's energy supply.
I think Denmark globally was the first country ever to develop modern windmills which were intended to yield a substantial part of our energy production. After approx. 40 years of intelligent scientific work and massiv subventions (60.000.000.000 DKK or approx. 10 billion USD) our 5.000 windmills only produce 2,6 % of our gross energy consumption (2006). And futhermore, because the windmills function according to the will of the wind we only use 50 % of the electricity produced by the windmills. We often have to sell the energy at very, very low prices or simply give it away to those who may want it. Please, forget that the wind in any sensible way can be a solution of anything that has with energy to do. It can however nurish some romantic dreams.
Moderator, the post above is a duplicate comment.
Yes. The mark of a propagandist.
Don't know why people keep using Denmark as a general anti-wind argument example. Denmark has serious negative factors for competitive wind power such as:
- absence of efficient markets (thick top-down regulations and a heavy bureacratic electric system)
- the experimental (ie costly) character of many windfarms
- mediocre wind resource
Yet wind is still proving more and more to be useful in reducing fossil fuel consumption in electricity generation at very reasonable levelised cost. This is not to say nuclear power is a bad idea, just that wind is a good idea also. In the absence of a carbon price, it rightfully deserves some subsidies.