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103 comments on DrumBeat: December 21, 2008

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Noizette on December 21, 2008 - 3:51pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Schooling (6-13 or so) has to, and will, become more localised.

First, because travel and busing etc. will beome more difficult, or impossible. Second, because parents will want/need very local schooling, will go for community organisation, even only for safety etc. considerations.

Third, it is likely that State Corporatism, as is current in the US and France, China as well, but that is another can of worms, will come to a stop.

The US has a clumsy scheme with schools funded largely by local taxes, ie. it is class run; social advancement no longer exists, hasn't for a long time, and it has *bad* teachers, I say bad, as individuals they are not to be blamed, the teachers are trapped too.

France shows a different pattern of extreme centralization and rigidity also with ‘poor’ teachers. These systems will simply collapse and are doing so as I write.

The US today job-wise has a few growth, if one can even talk about ‘growth’ sectors: Education, health, Gvmt (military, weapons research, etc.) Education is the most visible, demands and funding grow. At the same time, ppl check out and leave.

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ccpo on December 22, 2008 - 6:15am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

and it has *bad* teachers, I say bad, as individuals they are not to be blamed, the teachers are trapped too

You contradict yourself, so it's hard to understand what you actually think of teachers in the US, but you are repeating unfounded scapegoating. As a teacher, let me tell you that most teachers are competent. They are not going to change the world, but they are competent. I know, because I talked to them every day for four years and watched them teach so I could become a better teacher (while teaching myself). Yes, the Bell Curve applies, but it applies to many (most?) things we do.

There is nothing wrong with teachers that strong communities and stronger parents won't fix. In fact, students who are motivated to learn (whether intrinsically or extrinsically), will. Period. It is **NOT** a teacher's job to teach your child values, diligence, hard work or beliefs. It is YOUR job.

Can we train teachers better? Of course. Are they the problem? Rarely. During my entire schooling K-12, I had exactly one truly bad teacher. He was the head football coach teaching math, and couldn't have possibly cared less. The rest were "normals", and I had exactly four teachers I thought excellent. But most were competent. That is, they did not **prevent** learning like the above math teacher did.

I am not uncritical of our schools or our teachers. A lot of them mail it in, and I am **not** a fan, but as a percentage, the numbers are low. Hell, even those mailing it in are mailing in what they were doing as a young, motivated teacher, so their work is actually not horrid.

What should be the case for training is that every new teacher have a mentor that they work closely with for years, not just a semester, and that not just being observed once or twice. But what they really need is funding, parents that give a damn and make their kids do their homework, and neighborhoods that are supportive, stable places where kids are raised to be responsible, participatory and motivated (allowing for kids being kids, of course.)

I've never even heard of, let alone read, a paper that attempted to nail down why American schools don't deliver. If you've some proof other than the repeated, un-sourced BS that teachers are the problem, please link it.

Cheers

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Positive_Phototaxis on December 22, 2008 - 10:34am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

There is nothing wrong with teachers that strong communities and stronger parents won't fix.

Get upset when someone insults teachers but have no problem insulting parents and everyone else eh? :-)

It is **NOT** a teacher's job to teach your child values, diligence, hard work or beliefs. It is YOUR job.

This is undeniably true. It is also true that the educational establishment does not believe that.

I know of many exceptional teachers in our schools who take their jobs very seriously and for whom it is a true calling. That is not, however, the norm. We can blame a culture that doesn't value education as it should (and thus doesn't pay good teachers what they are worth), or we can blame the teachers unions... or any number of other things... but the simple truth is that we do not send our best and brightest back into our schools.

Of course there are exceptions (may their tribe increase!), but those who elect to major in education are close to the very bottom of the college barrel (in terms of grades and test scores). Those who graduate with education degrees have some of the very lowest GRE scores (second only to "public administration" IIRC).

I've never even heard of, let alone read, a paper that attempted to nail down why American schools don't deliver.

Try Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling and The Underground History of American Education by John Gatto. The second is viewable online at http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

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ccpo on December 22, 2008 - 2:07pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

Get upset when someone insults teachers but have no problem insulting parents and everyone else eh? :-)

I think my take on teachers was pretty balanced. They are, by and large, competent. You have said no differently here.

It is also true that the educational establishment does not believe that.

Who is this establishment? I've met not one teacher that wanted the duty of raising your children. (My post was about teachers, no?) Teachers have to, which is not the same as want to.

exceptional teachers... is not, however, the norm.

As I stated...

but the simple truth is that we do not send our best and brightest back into our schools

We don't send anyone. It's a self-selecting group. And it matters not a whit. First, there simply aren't that many people who are the cream of the crop by definition, so expecting our schools to be filled with them is about as pie in the sky as we can get. And, you don't need the best as teachers. It has been my experience that, much like parenting, a single teacher of true excellence along the way can be enough to set a student on a particular course. Excellence is a moot point.

Those who graduate with education degrees have some of the very lowest GRE scores

Sure. And? Hey, we used to make fun of the Ed. majors, too. And I was a psych major! But the fact is, the avg. person is capable of very competent work, and can build themselves into excellence. Many teachers do this. Face it, teaching isn't rocket science. It has more to do with managing a class than the actual act of teaching. Even a truly avg. IQ can handle a decent lesson plan and consistency with behavior modification, and that's 90% of a good teacher.

Try Dumbing Us Down...

Guess you missed my reading comprehension class. I said paper.

;)

Trust me: when the kids in the school are going home to good homes and good communities, your teachers will look like geniuses. Then you'll actually find out who your bad teachers are, because the there will be no excuse for the avg. student to be relatively good. (I always think of the beautiful letters of Civil War soldiers when I think of how far our typical American intellect has fallen... So many of them must have been barely educated, but, lordy, what prose!)

Cheers

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Positive_Phototaxis on December 22, 2008 - 4:23pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

I think my take on teachers was pretty balanced.

If it's "balanced" to say "the problem is the parents and communities".

Who is this establishment? I've met not one teacher that wanted the duty of raising your children.

They largely belong to teachers' unions. Ever read some of their positions? Ever review some of the case history of the fight (barely 2-3 decades old) for the right to homeschool? There is most definitely a position that government (through the schools) should play a central role in raising your children.

We don't send anyone. It's a self-selecting group.

Sure. And when you double taxes on one fuel and subsidize another the people who switch are "self selected"... but that doesn't mean that we didn't push them there. Public policy plays a big role in who decides to go in to teaching.

First, there simply aren't that many people who are the cream of the crop by definition

Perhaps I didn't make my position clear enough. I'm not saying there are few "cream of the crop" teachers. I'm saying that a large percentage of them are of unacceptably poor quality but are protected by unions that defend incompetance.

Sure. And?

Just demonstrating that our "best and brightest" are going somewhere else.

the avg. person is capable of very competent work

Yet is given no economic reason to do so even if "capable". There is little compensation (or even job security) difference between excellence and sub-par. So the return is the satisfaction of a job well done. People who respond to that generally excel in other areas too (like college performance).

Guess you missed my reading comprehension class. I said paper.

;)

I believe one of those books is made up of a number of individually published works, but I could be wrong. Regardless... can you disregard it simply by labeling it?

Trust me: when the kids in the school are going home to good homes and good communities, your teachers will look like geniuses.

I agree... but all that demonstrates is that our teachers don't make a whit of difference in the main. Hardly worth the $10k/child/year we throw at the establishment... and one a key reasons we homeschool.

So many of them must have been barely educated, but, lordy, what prose!)

Barely institutionally educated... but that just proves my point. I could produce a pair of vocabulary lists... one from 100+ years ago in a 4th grade reader and the other from a recent SAT. The 4th grade reader is clearly the harder list (and of course the SAT gives you multiple-guess for answers).

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ccpo on December 23, 2008 - 1:47am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

If it's "balanced" to say "the problem is the parents and communities".

That is not what I said. I said it is all three. Of course, there are other issues that you are attempting to expand my point into that are issues but that do not negate my point in any way. That is, you keep trying to discuss education while I made one point and one point only about what actually happens in the classroom. I think this is clear, so I don't understand why you persist.

That I choose not to bring up or discuss ALL the issues in American education does not tell *you* anything about my positions on them. I am well aware of the effects of unions, of the No Child Left Behind policy, funding and how it is done, the number of students per class, top down management, home schooling, tech in the classroom, etc., etc., etc., but I am not interested in discussing education. Feel free to take it up with those in this thread that are.

Your bias is clear: blame the teacher. It is a foolish stance. (Go ahead and construe that to mean we disagree on all the points you raise. I suppose it would surprise you to know you are largely preaching to the choir, but you have an agenda and are not listening.)

My point stands. I have laid out the logic, and it is based on long years of experience as a teacher, as a student, as a person actively involved in professional development and, finally, as a teacher trainer. Additionally, having taught in US public schools and in foreign public schools, I suspect my perspective is far broader than your perspective.

Teachers' skills are not *the* problem, nor one of the primary problems. Disagree? OK. Take it up with those that think there's some use in discussing it, but know you are barking up a tree and doing nothing more than repeating boring, old, pointless and useless canards.

As for the books: not available where I am.

Cheers

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103 comments on DrumBeat: December 21, 2008

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