The story is glut, glut, glut, glut. And more gluts.
Mexico is selling oil in the $20s also.
The story is not enough storage capacity to store the world's oil. Tanks are full, sea tankers are full. The story is that several refineries, able to refine heavy and sour crudes (which have lacked for buyers in recent years), opened up in recent years, and more are opening up in the future.
2009 will be the worst glut of oil ever. Everyone is using less, even as more becomes available.
Glut, gluts, gluts-a-rama.
And years ahead of more gluts. Demand may not recover to 2007 levels for 10 years, if the 1980s are an indicator.
I think the negative effects of peak oil have been re-set to 10 Years After (anyone old enough to remember that band?)
And the price mechanism may help us dodge any bullets, even then.

opec's el badri recently stated that inventory is about 5 days oecd demand in excess of average operating levels. and i suppose you can call that a glut, but that glut didn't occur overnight, $ 134 oil and ca 10 million bpd saudi production had something to do with it.

if you are claiming glut, gluts, glut a rama, show us some data. show us how supply going forward will exceed demand, show us what demand is now, show us what demand will be in the future, show us some data.

ace, etal have invested a lot of time and effort in forecasting these things and while i dont agree 100%, i for one respect their work a lot more than your rhetoric.

If you check out British Petroleum's website, World Statistical Review, you can see that after the price spike 1979-80, oil demand fell by about 11 percent (annual peak to annual trough), and did not recover for 10 years.
Okay, making predictions is hard, especially about the future. I hope I am wrong. I hope the world economy roars ahead in 2009.
But, from all indicators, this recession has "global ugly" written all over it.
So, you get a confluence of trends: Recession, and market reaction to higher oil prices of 2004-2008. Together, that confluence will likely mean at least an 11 percent reduction in global oil demand in 2009-10.
Call that 9 mbd of demand disappearing. Then, thanks to higher prices of 2004-2008, you get another net 2-3 mbd of production, that is too far along in development to stop. Anyways, the marginal cost of production is less than $20, or even $10.
So, you get 10, maybe 11, maybe 12 mbd of excess production, in world that demands maybe 78-79 mbd.
That is one honking glut to the moon. We will have oil pouring out of every orifice we have.
How far into the future can any of us see? Well, last time around it took 10 years for demand to recover after a price spike. There was some power plant fuel switching in the 1980s, but this time around we have much, much higher mpg cars available (if anyone buys them) and some biofuels.
Like I said, this recession looks global and ugly. Oil could $10. I think it will.

Then, thanks to higher prices of 2004-2008, you get another net 2-3 mbd of production, that is too far along in development to stop.

Let me get this straight. You are forecasting that physical world crude production is going to increase by 2 or 3 mbpd over and above the reported current peak in the next few years?

I can see the possibility that demand continues to crash faster than production but to actually forecast a considerable increase in physical oil production when OPEC is currently cutting production seems strange.

I think hes talking about "capacity"...

or bull$hit.

Thanks for asking the clarifying question. I am referring to total liquid fuel production, from oil, GLTs, CTLs, and biofuels....and yes, it is back of the envelope stuff.
But the demand drop is so large, you don't need anything but the big map. This one ain't even close. It is glut to the moon and beyond.
As for global liquid fuel production, even some Peakers have said it will rise for next couple of years.....

I'll try to put some(one else's) math into the picture.

In the recent Puplava interview, Hirsch commented that every decrease in demand of 1 million barrels per day buys us just one month — such is the rate of decline post peak.

I don't know how he came up with that number but as a starting point I suggest you try to reproduce it otherwise your assertion doesn't seem to have much validity.

That doesn't seem likely (it means that the decline in capacity equals at least that million bpb/month... that by spring, OPEC's 4.5 million bpd cut won't need to be enforced because it will be the most they can produce.

It's silly to take such a ridiculous number at face value and then insist that someone else "try to reproduce" it.

PP, Angel was talking about the effect on peak of reductions in demand (use), which you are conflating with the demand/production curve.

Cheers

U.S. total products supplied was down 4.9% YOY, not 11%. Demand for petroleum products has been recovering even though the economy has not. The price of gasoline is little more than a third of its peak summer price that triggered conservation measures.

While oil supplies rose last week, total crude + petroleum product inventories declined by 2.7 million barrels from the previous week average (-.3%). They were 3.1% above last year's levels.

Oil imports have increased YOY (four week average), it is not that recent demand for imports is falling faster than OPEC can cut.

Gasoline demand is recovering, while jet fuel sales remain depressed after the airlines cut unprofitable routes. The airlines have not fully recovered from the surge in jet fuel prices.

Some Canadian in-situ tar sands bitumen production has been cut due to high costs eliminating the profit margin (Connacher). Some new oil production projects were based on assumed higher oil prices. Some of these may have been modified, delayed, or cancelled.

Really the same thing in this case.

If we're on the downside of the curve and a reduction in demand merely pushes things back by a month, then whatever that amount is.. is the amount of production capacity you expect to lose in that month.

A long series of conjecture, based on false premises, from someone who's been a member of TOD for less than three weeks. I smell a troll. But just for fun I will point out some issues with bigglutman2009's assertions.

1. There are many important differences in both supply and demand between now and '79-80. I have no reason to assume that we will now repeat what happened then, with an 11% drop in demand and a 10-year recovery. This point is wholly unsubstantiated.

2. Where is this alleged 2-3 mbpd of new production? Against what baseline? Is that net production growth, or before accounting for declining fields?

3. The "marginal cost of production" isn't under $20 anywhere in the world. Globally it's more like $65.

4. Nobody keeps adding excess production capacity when there is a large oversupply, and when OPEC is cutting production. Which projects are "too far along in development to stop," exactly? There are numerous and expensive projects all over the world that have been halted mid-stream as oil prices crashed in the last 6 months.

5. 9 mbpd becomes 12 mbpd of excess production...how??

6. Having higher mpg cars available today than we had in the '80s is irrelevant. To prove that demand destruction this time, due to higher efficiency, will be even close to the demand destruction then, you have to prove a) that the difference between the efficiency of new vehicles today and the average fleet mpg is proportionally greater than the difference that existed then (it isn't); b) that switching power plant fuels today could achieve the same result as was achieved in the '80s (it can't); and c) that under the current horrible economic conditions, people are still going to shell out for an expensive, new, more efficient vehicle, when it now costs less than $40 to fill the tank of an SUV (they won't).

7. Even a cursory glance at the production cost and flow rates of GTL, CTL, and biofuels makes it clear that none of them amount to a drop in the bucket against 86 mbpd, nor will they for a long time to come.

It was probably a waste of my time to even try to address this post but I really tire of newbies spouting completely unfounded rhetoric as if it were fact.

South Korea oil demand in November is off 12.5 percent y-o-y. This is looking pretty ugly. The global demand drop this time around may be worse than 11 percent. It's down a lot laready, and this recession is barely out of the crib.
How long until oil demand revives to peak levels? You say 10 years is too long. So, when does global reovery begin, and how much can oil demand revive in each year?
If we assume a "good scenario," maybe demand can recover at 2 percent a year. That's five years (roughly) from the bottom. If we bottom in 2010, then we are saying 2015 until we reach peak demand levesl again.
But demand may recover more slowly. If prices go up, demand for fossil oil may never recover. Crude oil demand was falling in Europe, Japan and the United States even before recession, due to higher prices.
We get 12 mbd of excess supply in 2009-10 due to 9 mbd of demand disappearing, and 3 mbd of total new net suuply, predicted by many agenciies, and not me. If we got no new net supply, we still have a glut. If OPEC takes production off the table, we still have a glut.
Hey, I hope I am wrong, and the global recovery starts tomorrow, and we get 5 percent global growth, and the US recovery is immediate. I hope we all have multiple job offers, including you. I hope for a lot of things. But what is happening is another thing.

South Korea exports a lot of finished products Gasoline and Diesel to China and the US and Japan.

Since you did not provide a link and I cannot find a hit for what your saying using google.

I'd suggest you be careful about double counting. If South Korea imports 12% less oil and its finished product exports are down 10% then this is the same 10% thats being counted depending on what your looking at in other countries decline. Same for the US for that matter we do export finished products esp Gasoline to Mexico. You need to be a bit careful or your double counting by mixing various sources.

I did find this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601207&sid=aXSDAqLSp.3E

Imports dropped to 73 million barrels last month from 78.1 million a year earlier, the Ministry of Knowledge Economy said in an e-mailed statement today. The country's crude oil import bill dropped 21 percent to $5.1 billion.

Its say 72 million barrels from 78.1 YOY change.

This would be a 6.5% change in imports.

Assuming demand is down 3% in China/Japan/US i.e its export markets and 3% internally then then 6% or so sounds about right for South Korea.

And we have hints that they have cut back on exports of fuels
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssOilGasRefiningMarketing/idUSSP6494320...

Next South Korea is a big chemical manufacture and Naptha is the prime feedstock used in chemical that actually comes from oil most of the rest comes from various non-crude sources.
So a lot of their internal slow down is related to the slowdown in housing and auto manufacturing and the related plastics. The Naptha kinda skews things a bit for them.

In any case assuming 50% exports then 3% is a pretty good indicator of demand drops in their customers. Assuming that world demand was 75mbd then 75*.03 = 2.25 or about 72 mbd.

Believe it or not its in excellent agreement with what I've calculated !

World demand is about 72mbd and we have excess capacity. Going back and looking at the historical price data.

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_Rate/Historical_Oil_Prices_...

Gives
2004 $37.66 $42.80

And

http://www.eia.doe.gov/aer/txt/ptb1105.html
A perfect fit with 2004 production of 72.52 barrels.

Assuming that OPEC really cuts and that its cuts take us to about this number and assume that some production has started to shut in and continued declines i.e Mexico we should see a tight oil market any day now. This would leave OPEC and in particular Saudia Arabia with about 2mbd or so of real spare capacity that I seriously doubt they will turn back on any day soon.

I'd say that simply reading off past years demand and prices is itself a valid and good estimate of the current oil demand more complex guesses support this.

10mbd ? Don't think so this would show up clearly in US imports alone and it has not we have seen gasoline imports decline which fits very well with the South Korean declines.

The glut man is clearly someone who has a horse in the race and believes that repeating this mantra can have an effect on prices. So be it. I doubt US demand will even be down in '09 when it's all said and done.

http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/1999/msg00181.html
The Economist Magazine predicts low oil prices for foreseeable future

Huh? That article was written in 1999, oil prices did remain fairly low for the 5-6 years after that. I guess it all depends on how you define "forseeable future.", but i'd say the 5 year time frame is about as far as that goes (and thats pushing it).

The article was published in early March, 1999, which means that they had price data through most of February, 1999 (which averaged $12, US spot). They were predicting $5 to $10 oil for the foreseeable future.

Here are the annual rate of changes in prices, for Februarys, from 2/99 to 2/09 (assuming $40 oil for 2/09). Note that 2000 is for one year, 2001 for two years, and so on.

2000: +88%/year
2001: +46%/year
2002: +19%/year
2003: +27%/year
2004: +21%/year
2005: +23%/year
2006: +28%/year
2007: +20%/year
2008: +23%/year
2009: +12%/year*

*Assuming $40 oil for 2/09

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/rwtcm.htm

But let's be honest, gasoline (which what most americans care about) remained very very affordable for the entire "forseeable future" as they called it. In a sense the economist was telling people that gasoline/heating oil would remain affordable to american for the forseeable future. You of all people should know how hard it is to predict a specific price point ;-)

Well, here is what the Economist Magazine said in 1999:

Yet here is a thought: $10 might actually be too optimistic. We may be heading for $5. Thanks to new technology and productivity gains, you might expect the price of oil, like that of most other commodities, to fall slowly over the years. Judging by the oil market in the pre-OPEC era, a "normal" market price might now be in the $5-10 range. Factor in the current slow growth of the world economy and the normal price drops to the bottom of that range.

That the recent fall in prices has been so precipitous merely confirms that, for the past 25 years, oil has been anything but a normal commodity. Although the Middle East contains two-thirds of the world's proven oil reserves, it produces less than a third of the world's oil. If production were determined by cost and quality alone, most oil would come from these countries. Oil in the Gulf is cheap to extract-barely $2 a barrel, a quarter of the cost in the North Sea. Unlike the heavy crudes of Mexico or Venezuela, it is of high quality and high value. Much of the world needs fancy technology and expensive rigs to extract oil; in Arabia, as the old hands say, "you just stick a straw in the ground and it gushes out."

I have tried to stay away from picking both prices and time frame, since there are so many variables. For what it's worth, my two most repeated statements were that prices were best characterized as a series of doublings, $50, $100, $200, $400. . . with the caveat that I didn't know over what time frame, and I noted that the price of oil is a horserace between declining demand and a long term (and IMO accelerating) decline in net oil exports. Having said all of that, I do think that there is a pretty decent chance that the average 2009 price will exceed the average 2008 price.

For what it's worth, my two most repeated statements were that prices were best characterized as a series of doublings, $50, $100, $200, $400. . . with the caveat that I didn't know over what time frame,...

A technical quibble: once you hold back on the time frame, you haven't said much more than that price peaks will go ever higher. If that's true, you then just mark the points where doublings have occurred. You could, in principle, have a very slowly growing graph despite talk of doublings.

True, any steady exponential rate of increase results in doublings,

How about ANY increase, for example the rise in the price of goods with inflation results in doublings. A movie ticket....was 1$, 2$, 4$, 8$, you know a doubling.

Also, speaking of doublings, has anyone seen this graph of Solar cell production:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fl4GqRfOC9Q/SU89iF55zvI/AAAAAAAAAZA/iPUshRnPg6...

PV production went from 250 in 2000 to 500 in 2002 to 1000 in 2004, to 2000 in 2006, and 4000 in 2007! Now that's what i like to call "doublings"!

Any linearly increasing graph will suffice -- that's the point.

And if you adjust for inflation? And plug in $30 oil for 2009?

And if we take the square root of $30, the price of oil would only be $5.50 in 2009.

The story is glut, glut, glut, glut. And more gluts.
Mexico is selling oil in the $20s also.
The story is not enough storage capacity to store the world's oil. Tanks are full, sea tankers are full. The story is that several refineries, able to refine heavy and sour crudes (which have lacked for buyers in recent years), opened up in recent years, and more are opening up in the future.
2009 will be the worst glut of oil ever. Everyone is using less, even as more becomes available.

I don't disagree. We're priced at the margin and the margin is low.

I think the negative effects of peak oil have been re-set to 10 Years After-
And the price mechanism may help us dodge any bullets, even then.

TOTALLY disagree. First of all, if we really do need ten years to get back to 2008 demand levels, then we have some pretty big geopolitical conflicts in a 10 year depression. But more importantly, each month that goes by without increased investment narrows the difference between future natural decline and observed. Natural decline is over 40% per year for NA Natty and probably close to 10% on global oil. With those numbers, even in a world depression, drop in supply will overtake drop in demand WELL before 10 years. (but for 2009 I suspect you may be correct).

Nate-
I do worry about under-investment in fossil oil, thanks to the $10 oil we will see in 2009. I think that is a legitimate concern. I don't know what to do about it, however. Always, investors tend to over or under-invest, from real estate to dot.coms to oil. Actually, I think all energy investments get cranked back and hard now, just like the late 1980s, with bad long-term results.
But I don't think it is so far-fetched to expect crude oil demand will not reach peak levels again for 10 years. After all, that is what happened in the 1980s, after a similar price spike. Except this time we have a honkin' bad recession staring us in the face.
South Korea oil demand in November is off 12.5 percent y-o-y.
This is looking really bad.
Maybe supply will fall faster than demand. That will be a first, especially after a price spike-recession combo.

And now we will see $10/bbl in 2009? LOL! If I wait another hour, will you say it's going to $5?

I am sticking with $10 a barrel, but I will "cheat" and not say what type of crude. And I won't say for how long. It might be the Mexican crap, which is already done in the $20s, and it might be for one hour.
But I think it will happen, we will see $10 oil in 2009. Jeez, look at the cover of the Wall Street Journal today. Now, commercial real estate borrowers say it is all turning to crap too. I keep looking for good news. If anybody sees a case for strong oil demand in 2009-10. I want to see it.
If not, where is all the oil goint to be stored?
And $10 is not so crazy. Let's see, we have gone from $147 to mid-$30s. That $110 or so. Another ten-spot down, and some weak news, and presto, you see $10 oil in some crappy grades.

You make some good points, but you haven't acknowledged that a strong US dollar is an implicit part of your price forecasts.

That is correct I think. What if the oil producers stop accepting US$ or JPyen or other currencies? There's already murmuring about backwardation in the gold market and about what this means for the dollar.

There are so many factors interacting that it's hard to go along with a scenario as simplistic as a long term glut, with people continuing to build nothing and rein in spending while enjoying cheap gas for ten years. BAU-Lite?? I don't buy it.

Neither do I. Nor peak lite.
We are blowing off the Peak production with the lowest prices seen in years. With that tailwind on the downside of the economy it'll matter less that oil is unaffordable. It'll still be cheap enough for almost anyone who had access previously to at least drive some and there are way more potential consumers around the world than the last time we we're here on price.

But last time there was plenty of easy oil left.

The massive stimuli will bring the dollar down and all that printed crap will be used to buy the most undervalued oil the world has ever seen. The oil which might have made the transition to powerdown possible. This sets the stage for much higher prices post stimulus when US inflation begins to run rampant.

Producers will want 'tangeble' for their now obviously declining net exports and those that lack it and haven't made provision will lack leverage. Insufficient ability to produde tradable value will not go unnoticed. Not by OPEC or those who struggle for power within the regimes.