![]() | How to keep on financing wind farms when banks have no money left. | The Oil Drum | A National Renewable Ammonia Architecture | ![]() |
118 comments on DrumBeat: December 24, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
118 comments on DrumBeat: December 24, 2008
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
- Some predictions on the forthcoming Russian-Ukrainian gas 'crisis'
- The US stimulus and "green jobs" for wind energy
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
- The Bullroarer - Friday 13th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”
—Albert Einstein
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Maybe everything is not lightness.
But, on the other hand, in the brief window that oil prices were high (2004-2008), every major auto manufacturer designed and began initial production on much higher mpg models, including the GM Volt, a true PHEV (40 miles on charge). The Ford Fusion recently obtained 53 mpg in a test by a fair LA Times auto critic.
The increase in alternative fuel research and development was dramatic as well, if less promising. Palm oil is competitive at $50 a barrel, and new hybrids bring much higher yields.
Oil was cheap for decades, then became expensive for three or four years. Now, it is cheap again, and may go down to $10. Yet, in that small window of less than four years, many large adaptations were forthcoming. World fossil oil demand had all but flatlined even before the recession.
Hard to imagine oil prices will revive for several years. Hard to imagine demand will revive for five to 10 years. This global recession looks bad.
Japan's oil demand, for example, is falling to levels not seen since the 1960s, due to conservation efforts and the recession. That's four decades of flat to down crude oil demand, but economic growth.
There is a likely scenario ahead, no great but not doom: Due to global recession and conservation, world fossil oil demand does not recover for 10 years or so. But, by then, Europe and Japan are deep into hybrids and PHEVs, and maybe even the USA. Maybe even China (where PHEVs are almost coming off production lines already).
Demand for fossil oil never recovers. 2007-2008 was the era of Peak Demand. We make progress in the business of improving the life of man, step by step, as we have done for centuries.
The price mechanism will play a large part in making this scenario a reality.
Want to know how Japan flattened out their oil demand growth but kept up economic growth?
http://mazamascience.com/OilExport/index.html
Here's the oil demand
But now let's look at gas and coal.
Just from reading off the graphs and a quick estimation (someone can grab the raw data and apply conversion factors if they fancy) it looks to me as if Japan would today be importing somewhere in the ballpark of 3.5 million barrels per day more oil than at present if it hadn't substituted it with coal and natural gas. You may need to rethink some of your ideas.
Thanks Undertow, this one is a keeper. Growth in GDP, or industry in general requires growth in the energy supply. As the oil supply declines then the use of coal and natural gas must increase, just to stay static. But in a debt based society, a static economy is impossible. If there is no growth then the economy must decline.
Since we have reached peak oil, in my opinion anyway, then to avoid a never ending depression coal and natural gas use must increase quite dramatically. That is not likely to happen. Natural gas will likely peak about ten years after oil.
Coal has a different problem. As it has been pointed out, several times on TOD, the supply of coal is not really what it is cracked up to be. Also it is quite spotty. That is the supply is limited to a very few countries. I expect "Net Coal Exports" to shrink even faster than net oil exports. After the shock of peak oil sinks in to the average citizen, they will demand that their precious reserves of coal be kept for themselves.
Thats partial substitution at work. I wish someone with a better grasp of economic would take a stab at the implications of partial substitution. My own result is that it will lead to energy prices in general reaching equality with a fixed discount for energy quality.
Effectively no energy source provides any advantage over the other once the quality discount is in. The only differentiating factor is the quality which is basically the use for the energy. This includes renewable sources in this model they would be expanded to maintain the total energy levels not because they provided any inherent advantage from a energy/cost stand point. Basically they don't don't cause expansion but slow the decline in overall energy levels. This has nothing to do with how "good" renewable energy sources are just that a economic model of partial substitution ends with energy itself becoming a more unified concept i.e you start paying for joules/btu's.
I'd love to see your japan graphs with prices per btu over layed on top. You should see that partial substitution was unable to prevent energy costs from converging.
This of course brings up the current unprecedented flattening of the price differential between oil and NG worldwide and in North America esp. If this differential remains closed and the price of oil increases we are effectively entering and unknown era of converged energy costs.
In my opinion the biggest thing thats happening right now is that the advantages of partial substitution have come to and end. The economic impact of this is hard to gauge but from what I can tell its the biggest untold story in the history of modern energy.
From a EROEI perspective what this means is that using energy from coal or NG to extract oil or vice versa offers little intrinsic advantage financially. Its not clear to me yet what the full implications are of the tango between EROEI and partial substitution but the result regardless is not good and its not a small factor. Declining overall i.e total energy place a role also.
Merry Christmas and enjoy each and every holiday we have from here on out. It may be the last one you enjoy in reasonable comfort.
Thats a doomer variant of good cheer :)
Congratulations on your excellent charts. But doesn't this underline a point? That people and businesses adapt? That it is possible to progress, while using less oil? I didn't say they used less of other energy sources.
Moreover, Japan achieved these reductions in oil demand while oil was cheap.
Since Japan taxes gasoline, I assume oil demand will continue to fall in Japan, with the introduction of much higher mpg cars, such as hybrids and PHEVs.
The point stands: Several nations, largely in Europe, are obtaining higher GDPs per capita while reducing oil consumption. If France adopts PHEVs in the future, and gets more than 80 percent of its power from nukes (as it already does, and it is building yet two more huge nuke plants), does not that mark a successful adaptation to scarce oil?
I confess to not knowing the full range of outlooks for coal and natural gas, although there seems to be plenty of it, judging from prices. China just discovered yet another huge seam of it, and is building CTL plants as we speak.
Maybe fuel-switching can't last. Maybe we run out of fossil everything (though probably not nuke, solar, wind, geothermal, biofuels or gains through efficiencies). Seems like we still have a lot of options on the table.
Enough option to drive oil down to $10 in 2009? I think so. Down to $33 a barrel today, for the best grades. In the $20s for heavy stuff.
That's cheap!
Here is Japan's total energy consumption, through 2005 (EIA). From 1983 to 2005, it grew at +2.2%/year.
And that was the era of cheap energy (which is upon us again, by the way). And repeat, I said nations can prosper while using less oil, not energy. However, California has shown it can increase GDP per person while cutting energy use per unit of output.
Or, are you suggesting that all forms of energy, including fossil (coal, oil, gas, GTL, CTL, shale, tar, heavy Venezuelan guck) solar, wind, geothermal, nuke, mini-nuke, and biofuels become more scarce in decades ahead?
Seems unlikely.
"However, California has shown it can increase GDP per person while cutting energy use per unit of output."
link please?
For the last two decades a lot of Americans have confused debt with wealth. Take out the easy credit and the great speculative bubble ever known to modern capitalism - housing, and we are poorer IMHO. Debt is a disease that afflicts many in this country.
I recently suggest to a friend that there is a possibility that California will go BK in 2009. California is infested with clowns living on borrow money. The music just stopped, and the piper wants to be paid bytch!!!
Cinch
I don't know why people online think others are their research assistants.
From Berkeley,
According to the California Dept of Finance [excel file], in 1990 California's GSP was $788 billion with a population of some 30 million, and is now some $1,543 million, with a population of some 36 million.
Now I have done the research for you, you can do your own sums to figure out if the electricity per capita or per dollar of GDP has gone up or down.
If you have a claim to make, you must provide evidence. It is fair and proper in any public discourse particularly in the sciences. Here I'm asking just for a link, in particular GDP on GSP.
My opinion/view is still the same. If you take out the creative financing that has occurred in the past decade, California is actually poorer today then they were in the 90s. With massive accumulation of debt at all levels (personal to state budget), high rate of unemployment and state budget in shamble, California fictitious economic growth story for the past decade is being seen for what it is.
A few days ago Calculatedrisk.blogspot.com presented a stat of Mortgage Equity Withdraw and/or HELOC contribution to the overall economy. Their thesis is simple: take away these financial debt instruments and we never really gotten out of the 2001 recession.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
The folks at Shadow Government Stats also think we've never really gotten out of the recession. (Scroll down for GDP.)
I would have posted the graph, but can only hot link, which Leanan doesn't like.
Cheers
to the poster formerly known as BenjaminCole,
You may be correct, but I don't believe you are. Natural wealth per capita in the form of energy has peaked - in terms of NET energy it has most definitely peaked. We will undoubtedly use less oil because it is less affordable - there is less 'energy subsidy' circulating throughout the system and this means attempts at growth have to be borrowed from elsewhere. Oil supply will eventually (and soon, but not in 2009) go down faster than oil demand. All the other inputs are secondary. Energy gain makes (made) the world go round.
We will undoubtedly use less oil because production will decline and there won't be any other choice.