107 comments on Herman Daly: The Disconnection Between Financial Assets and Real Asssets
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107 comments on Herman Daly: The Disconnection Between Financial Assets and Real Asssets
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why not commodity money?
yes, why not gold and silver as money. All that bullshit bragging that americans do about freedom is funny when they allow their govt to impose on them a fiat currency. Yes ALL countries do that but see where it started and where the center of world's financial system is (world bank, imf etc) which force all govts of world to follow this cruel system of fiat currency.
If gold is in short amount relative to real assets you simply let the market increase its price to its true value. If gold become too expensive for day-to-day use as money (for example buying groceries) you have another cheaper metal silver. Probably this was the reason traditionally there were both gold and silver coins used as money.
Its not wise to give your govt that much power that it can practically destroy all trade and business via hyper inflation as in zimbawe.
The basic problems with a gold or silver standard is that the money supply has an inelastic upper boundry. Gold and silver are very finite. However, commodity money is still very possible and probably the best way to handle valuing our money, we just have to choose the right "commodity."
The best idea I've heard for valuing any money system would be to take a cocktail of commodities and use this group to value money. Commodities such as wheat, and other renewables, do have upper limits from season to season, but managed properly, they can be produced every year. So if money were valued in such a way that $100 will always be worth 50 lbs of wheat, 10 2x4x8" lumber, and one pound of honey, then our money supply can grow and shrink so that we don't have inflation. Further, the money should only be created when these goods have been produced. That way there is a real and tangible asset underlying the money supply. Under our current system our money is only backed by a promise to pay and that promise to pay is dependent on our future always being exponentially larger than our present.
TS
Well, that is the idea. If not by that innelastic upper boundry, commodity currency wouldn't solve anything.
If you have money that can be printed on any amount, you are always subjected to the risk of the press owner leveraging his power to get a short term bonus. Then, when everybody realises what happened, you have deflation, and everybody suffers.
Your logic is a little flawed there. The idea is not to give a hard and fast upper boundry for the money supply. Instead the idea is to match the size of the money supply with the goods available for sale. By using gold, you end up with that hard upper limit and this can cause a shortage of money in the system if there are more goods and services to available for sale than the money supply can handle. The key is to be able to grow OR shrink the money supply in conjunction with the goods that the money will buy.
We've already had a period in our country where there was plenty of resources but not enough money.
TS
TS- My apologies for being a semi-idiot in these things, but I'd be most grateful if you could expand on that concept of a period of not enough money [supply], and why it was a problem (as the words "not enough" imply).
Hey Robin,
No apologies necessary. We're all learning and adapting in real time here.
The following quote is taken from:
http://www.elliottwave.com/deflation/
But there are many other sources of this information out there if you choose to dig out some more.
In most of the world today, the primary monetary system is based on the fractional reserve lending model. Money ONLY comes into existence when debt is incurred. Increasing overall debt is the only way to increase the money supply. When the faith is lost that loans will be repaid, there is a refusal or aversion to further lending. This dries up people's access to money. Money is a tool used to equate the value of certain goods and services amongst all goods and services. This system is what allows people to use their particular skills and resources to obtain their needs. So when the money supply dries up, you haven't taken any skills away from people. There's still the same amount of natural resources as there was just prior to the drought of money...What's changed is that the vehicle to enable transactions has dried up and the skills and resources aren't exchanged in the needed volume. I wish I could find the comment and I think it was here at TOD, but very real fears in the near future are that farmers won't be able to buy the grain and fertilizer needed to work their feilds. This doesn't meen that the seedstocks are low, or that the fertilizer they need doesn't exist. It just means that their societally accepted method for procuring these items is not available because they don't have access to money.
Deflationary depressions, as noted above in that quote, are one way to experience a shortage of money in the system. Another way is to tie the value of your money to a relatively scarce resource. This method works up to a point, but you run into a wall when you realize that there are more skills and goods that are available, just begging to be utilized but the money supply can't grow any further because it's limited due to it's peg against gold. Then the only way to grow the money supply without inflationary effects would be to find more gold. If you're trying to buy food and shelter, you don't care how much gold the world has. You see that there's plenty of food and shelter, you just don't have access to money because there's not enough gold to back it up. It's a real danger. So by tying the value of money to a mix of commodities, you can grow and shrink your money supply as the relative amounts of the commodities increase and decrease. This type of system is always backed by tangible value because the money isn't created until after the goods or services are in existance/performed.
Hope this answers your question. If not, I'll try again ;)
TS
If a market basket that costs $100 today costs $50 in ten years, that would be deflation. Not so good for those with long term contracts unless they are written with some sort of adjustment clause.
Imagine that there isn't enough money to enable all the services and goods to be sold. Wouldn't deflation happen in the ordinary course of events, so that the markets would adjust? Essentially one would have too much of a good or service and therefore the price would fall.
Thinking back to the Greenback movement, wasn't it all about expansion and breaking free of the trusts and banking system of the time? So if we DO NOT want the economy to expand, then locking down the money supply could help. It seems a very blunt instrument, but if the goal is to produce LESS and to keep it LOCAL [scrip], then deflation and some high level of taxation on wealth would seem appropriate. Even some sort of built-in depreciation on the currency. The aim is to encourage people NOT to shop, but to build the commonwealth and minimize private wealth.
Can one get from money supply to something that regulates the scale of the economy? Each unit of currency would then represent that share of economic activity. It doesn't seem to me it would have to be linked to a particular tangible asset.
cfm, confused in Gray, ME
Hey Dryki,
I'm not sure if you're specifically responding to my posts. That said, I'll try to address your points as if you were responding specifically to me. ;)
Under the different financial/monetary system that I've previously described, the money supply is matched with the goods available for sale. If there isn't enough money in the system, government spending can infuse the economy with additional money. If there's too much money, taxes, or interest paid on government loans can reduce the money supply. By having the money supply matched to the available goods, the system will neither be deflationary nor inflationary. Certain care must be made to monitor perishable items and make sure that the available pool of goods doesn't shrink drastically in relation to the money supply. At any rate, this system of currency was used by Abraham Lincoln to completely fund the Civil War.....WITHOUT income taxes. After the North won, Lincoln was preparing to unite the Northern and Southern financial system under his "greenback" style currency. He never accomplished this because he was assassinated. Hitler also used this same monetary system when he rose to power. When you look at the history of just how potent a debt-free monetary system can be, it's staggering. The one thing it does is take power away from the figureheads of the Central Banking/fractional reserve model. The real challenge in implementing this change is to overcome their resistance.
The way I see it, the goal for any new monetary system is to have the flexibility to grow and/or shrink (or to remain constant for that matter) your economy while still retaining a "healthy" economy. Under our present debt based/fractional reserve economy, it's never "healthy" unless it's perpetually growing. I'm not saying that all growth is bad, but to have that be the overpowering motivation is just not wise. It paints ourselves into a corner...Reduces our options. If our economy deflates to the point where people can't buy food, then government spending needs to fill that hole in the money supply. Conversely, if prices are rising because there's too much money in the system, then money taken out through taxes or as interest payments to the government will shrink the money supply. Our economy at our peak was definately too large and in need of shrinking. The ultimate size of a future "healthy" economy must be veiwed in terms of natural resources and how many non-renewables are consumed versus renewables. A stable sustainable economy that doesn't blow through renewables faster than they're renewed, and severly limits the depletion of non-renewables, would be the upper limit, IMHO. The managing of the money supply would be the tool to control the scope/size of the economy in relation to our resources.
Hope this helps explain my position more clearly.
TS
TS - Thanks for replying to my original question (to expand on that concept of a period of not enough money [supply], and why it was a problem (as the words "not enough" imply)).
However your reply (that such a period/problem is one of deflation) seems to be incorrect. There is deflation right now in the US (see Martin D Weiss of Money and Markets), caused by the defaulting on so much debt. That is deflation happening even though the money supply is not rigidly limited by gold and instead the Fed could just print more, indeed is doing so. So it appears that if the state/problem of "not enough" money is deflation, then it is not caused by not enough money and is not exclusively related to a gold/etc standard?
But I guess that respecting of a gold standard could increase the constraint (preventing printing of money), which is perhaps what you had in mind.
Hey Robin,
I agree that deflation is happening now. Yes the Fed is printing more money but you've got to follow all this new money through the economy. It's a pretty short trip so far. The banks which make loans to consumers and businesses are so risk averse right now that they are using the money to plug the holes in their balance sheets. The "trickle-down" effect isn't working and IMHO was never intended to trickle down, although they said that's what the purpose was. One aspect of the problem in the danger that the derivatives market implodes. We'll see a complete financial collapse if that happens. Again, IMO, this is why the Govt. and the Fed wouldn't allow AIG and certain investment banks to fail. Their exposure in derivatives was too great.
Right now, the limiting factor for money to reach the little guys is the risk aversion of the banks to lend. The fed can print all the money it wants and give it to the banks and ailing businesses, but this money can't flow freely through the economy, it might as well not exist. So what we have is a flawed system that has so many holes, that the money isn't finding it's way around.
A gold or silver standard is another way that restrains the money supply, yes. We're not tied to one right now and the primary reason was that it was working against the growth imperative that is a result of the compounding interest in the debt based money creation model. I agree that a gold standard isn't the best choice but not because it prohibits perpetual growth, rather it reduces flexibility of the money supply.
TS
One more comment ;)
I thinks it also bears mentioning that we need to start looking at money as a tool to facilitate transactions, and NOT as a store of value to an end in itself. By only creating money to match goods and services after they have been performed/created, you've implicitly backed the money with a real/tangible value. Compared to our current system where money is created and backed only the promise to repay with interest in the future. There is nothing "real" backing today's money. The idea then is that money used as a tool will allow you to assemble your own collection of goods/services that IS your investment portfolio. It brings us one step closer to understanding Man's place and relation to the natural systems.
TS
A simple but important point. Thanks for bringing that up. Presumably the depreciation in some scrip is exactly for that purpose - some of them seem to automatically devalue at something along the lines of 1% a month.
cfm in Gray, ME
There are many problems with any hard currency and stifling money supply growth is one of them.
- Fiat money centralizes wealth creation power with the central government. Convertible currencies gives wealth creation power to all who possess it or its basis, be that gold, silver or some other valuable material. This decentralization of power has been anathema to all governments.
- Gold or other hard money systems are easy to evade. The history of the gold backed dollar in the 20th century is the history of the US 'going off' gold. At bottom, no system or discipline is better than the persons who use or abuse that system.
- Arbitrage activities tend to undermine gold systems, particularly if they are complex. See Walter Bagehot's description of 'Foreign drain and domestic drain' on reserves; if the price of currency differs in another region, imbalances can rapidly occur and lenders of last resort have the choice of either exhausting reserves or abandoning the hard currency regime and printing.
- Governments have a long history of confiscating gold in private hands, which undermines the confidence in gold- backed currencies. The most famous is FDR's confiscation order upon his inauguration in 1933.
- The single greatest complaint against gold (or other hard currency bases) is that it does not earn intrinsic interest; that is, it isn't fiat- money- like.
- The next great complaint is that gold backed currencies are inherently deflationary ... while they are inflationary at the same time! Since gold currencies have real value, holders hoard it, which is deflationary since there are fewer bills in circulation relative to goods and services. Consequently the treasury is required to print more currency to put it into circulation for daily business, this is against a fixed - or, if currency hoarders are converting their paper to physical gold - a declining reserve basis. As a result, there is a constant increase of currency. This increase in paper is inflationary on its face, although it is a 'concealed' inflation because the increases are hoarded in turn; one does not know exactly the wealth of a neighbor and the total money supply is uncertain. There are times when this hoarded money will appear suddenly in circulation, usually when it is unwelcome since it usually results in devaluation. All of this process describes the matter of the 'bad' - which is the increase in printed currency - 'driving out the good'.
By the end of the 19th century, the European financial powers had ironed out most of the kinks relative to hard money; large and liquid marketplaces and coordination between central banks kept arbitrage to a reasonable minimum and allowed capital to flow to investments that brought a high standard of living to most Europeans.* World War I put an end to this system; perhaps as a result, some blame for that war was directed toward the system that to some degree enabled it. Just as the current fiat system will undoubtedly be held liable for the cataclysm that is unwinding under our feet.
In reality, where hard currency enabled the social and industrial mechanisms that made that war inevitable, it was fiat money - particularly Walter Rathenau's brilliant innovation of fastening credit expansion to industrial output measured by statistics - that allowed the Europeans to prosecute it for as long as they did. After centuries of experience with both systems, it is probably fair to reject the fiat regime as it better rationalizes and rewards anti- social activites.
Can a hard money system work? This topic has been discussed here previously and on other financial/economic websites. While laying out the details of a workable hard currency regime is far beyond the limitations of a comment attached to a post on a website, the main characters are useful to describe:
- A hard currency regime is necessary in order to place value on currently undervalued externalities. Fiat regimes are structurally incapable of doing so, they measure abstract inputs with the end of increasing credit rather than fixing the wealth- value of objects. even abstract objects. This is what hard currencies do; they apply standards of wealth to objects, starting with gold or silver. Fiat systems don't and probably cannot. Gold in a fiat system is another industrial commodity to be 'used' (burned up) in some wasteful manufacturing process. Long- running externalities such as air pollution remain outside the ambit of all fiat regimes. These must be approached indirectly with regulations rather than by incentives inherent to the financial regime, which is where they should be - and most effectively would be - addressed. The idea is to provide incentives for conserving, for keeping the air clean or fisheries whole because clean air or functioning fisheries are more valuable - and useful - than dirty air or non- existant fish. The purpose of keeping the air clean is that it will allow some capitalist to get filthy rich from doing so. Fiat regimes measure all things in relation to their ability to allow credit creation.
- A hard currency regime would be decentralized; it would be done in an organized way with a central oversight mechanism that would keep imbalances from developing and to manage arbitrage. Decentralization would keep the overall structure from being compromised; some banks within it might fail or be ruined, but no single bank 'too big to fail' would not uproot the entire system. Diversity would keep control out of the hands of a few central government apparatchiks. Diversity would provide the structural robustness that centralized credit creation prevents. An example of the structure I have in mind is a Federal Reserve system broken up into fifty or so individual State Federal Reserve banks.
- A hard currency regime would incorporate fixed rates of return on deposits to the currency basis structure. A reasonable statutory rate (of 4 - 5 percent) would keep currency in circulation at all times without the need for printing. A return on all deposits would be subsidized if necessary; it would cost the government much less to do so than to subsidize all credit during a credit expansion then spend much more to rescue the broken system @ collapse. A hard system would be manifest as a robust, high yield billion dollar- scale economy rather than as an insolvent trillion dollar- scale economy, such as we have now.
- The basis structure would be open and available to all, banks would be depository at all levels, including at the highest. The current Federal Reserve system only does business with other banks and is conequently cut off from all hard capital (deposits) except indirectly through client banks. The fatal flaw of the Fed is that its reserves are either Treasury paper or commercial trash; over time, these items become interchangeable. The Fed has to borrow most of its capital from the Treasury. A hard system borrows down the economic food- chain, from depositors, aggregating earned income that is saved, providing a return on that saving.
- In the current fiat system, the central bank is isolated from the people it supposedly exists to serve; it therefore does not serve them. In a hard system, the banks cannot exist without the trust and cooperation of the people whom they would serve. Capital would flow from the public, not be borrowed from the Treasury. There is a great deal more to this feedback loop that would make the hard system more accountable that any fiat system, but I will not go into it here ...
- The basis would not be limited to gold or other metal but would also include such as mineral leases, watershed easements, undeveloped land, productive farmland, oil and gas reserves, forests, etc - all 'things' that can be conveyed by deed or title and other things that cannot easily but have value, nevertheless ... such as fisheries. Public property would be 'depositable' as well. Investments that would increase or improve this reserve base would allow the increase in the money supply, 'Business As Usual' or 'Growth' as it is currently defined - aggregated liabilities in the true sense - would erode the currency basis. Neither 'Depletion' nor externalities would exist in this regime, at the same time, proper husbandry, resource conservation would be rewarded through by an increase in available money and attendant purchasing power. This would accrue both to both the individual depositor and to the system as a whole. The key here is again, yield; the cost of credit. Fixing a yield to 'idle' properties such as farmland would permit that idleness to compete on a level investment playing field with 'development'. The increased cost of credit would require any value added approach to actually add value and to do so over time, to compete with a property as it is, where the currency as a whole is the bearer of value, rather than the 'money- like' individual loan that carries value in the fiat system. 'Investments' such as speculative building schemes would simply not be affordable with property and improvement costs added to expensive credit; this then compared to the return available simply by having the property earning a yield within the system without any development.
- The hard regime would apply financial values to the commons.
I can go on and on; I have a truly marvellous proof of this proposition which this margin is too narrow to contain.
*Many would comment that colonial expansion and exploitation was responsible for the increase in living standards in industrial countries. This would be true only to the extent that the costs of maintaining the colonies did not exceed the returns from them. Most of the European colonies produced losses for their masters, requiring much effort on the part of governments to rationalize maintaining them.
Steve from V - My first thought is of the notion that there are some problems that do not have solutions. My second is that perhaps this one comes into the category of crime (as in you can never stop all crime but it doesn't therefore follow that you should give up all trying).
The fundamental you rightly identify: At bottom, no system or discipline is better than the persons who use or abuse that system.
Anyway, thanks for a magnificent post.
Very insightful post - many thanks.
Two additional points: Hard currency regimes can be misused as well as any fiat currency system. Even hyperinflation was possible, f.i. before and in the early stages of the thirty-year war. Social disruption and loss of confidence in the authorities led the foundation for the atrocities of the war.
Just because the Fed is an ill designed entity with the purpose of maximising the revenue and ambitions of its private shareholders not all fiat systems should be debunked. An independant entity solely targeting price stability and tightly controlling money supply can work pretty well - look at the Bundesbank's track record. Growth and govt debt spending were lower than in other countries but there were no bubbles at all. Of course the suppport of a population which has suffered through inflation and deflation within a generation is helpful.
Well, of course, there is no system better than its participants. I like the think that any system should be - inherently - a teaching tool; as in, "Why do we have a gold standard now, Grandpa Bernanke, when we had fiat money for decades?"
"Hoooommm. I don't know ..."
You see what I mean? Just a bunch of dummies in charge of things, they can't learn anything.
I think in different circumstances, with different institutional memories and personalities and more rigorous fiat system would work and do so a lot better than the current model. Right now, with 'Fiat 1.0' crashing around our ears an alternative that is vastly different (change we can believe in for a change) would be the necessary to beguile some public trust. A 'Fiat 2.0' might be an excellent monetary system, but it would not be considered if 'Fiat 1.0' was still functioning; installing it now is a bit too late as it would likely collapse as well and for the same reasons ...
A replacement or parallel money system would be called on to perform two very difficult and mutually excluding tasks;
- to safeguard the wealth that exists in all forms that is in the hands of the public; this private wealth is the habitat for the capital that is public trust and confidence which must exist for any money system to function. This trust is evaporating very rapidly; banks are considered insolvent even when they are not, the managers who are now proven crooks poison the reputations of the entire lot.
- to render to the best degree possible some defense against the current deflation and any subsequent inflation or currency collapse.
It is utmost importance for the private wealth to be safeguarded as its loss would both impoverish the country completely and end all faith in the government. Authority isn't nefarious ... the time to build lifeboats is before the ship plunges to the bottom! That nobody sees a need to craft lifeboats under circumstances that compel the Treasury Secretary to cry 'Systematic financial collapse!!!' does not give any confidence at all; it speaks eloquently the people in charge are complete idiots or are complete idiots in denial ... or are complete idiots in denial who are also incompetent crooks! A baboon would make correct policy by accident every now and then.
(Beats head against wall!)
I don't know if any fiat system will survive the coming crisis. Only Japan and Hong Kong (I think) have sufficient cash reserves to weather an assault (speculative or otherwise) on their currencies or pay demands made against them or their denominated securities with something other than more securities; at bottom even this melts away. Japan's economic base of high quality manufacturing is valueless without customers with valuable money. Its currency is a set of claims against something whose value cannot be taken for granted under all circumstances. The loss of trust in one currency would likely call into question the trust in the others - and the actions of the electronic marketplace would amplify distress and institutionalize it - and then the very concept of fiat currency itself would be questioned, tremulously and with grave doubts. After this comes the end of the world, the end of the world of money at least for a good while, maybe a year or longer.
The only money would be gold and silver, diamonds and land, then exchange would arise from money based on these things, the hardest currency. Or ... the governments would resort to command economies with fixed prices and wages and rationing. Of course, the situation resolving from 'Command Economy 2.0' would also become very complex indeed, with two levels of 'currency' one being a black market of one kind or another. Here, the 'command' would also be fiat, albeit closely traded; without trust it too would collapse.
Right now, the great danger is deflation. It is imbedded into the innermost workings of the economies, ours and the others, abroad. I don't think the economic masters have thought things through very well, they do not understand deflation which lack of understanding is clear by their actions. Else they would not have chosen their policy tools so poorly.
Steve,
You should submit an article to the editors.
Gail proposed that we need a 2nd sort of money in parallel. My suggestion would be that it be backed by a basket of non-perishable stuff. The stuff would be chosen, and the ratios set, by a decision about what would be valuable to stockpile in the interests of national security. The money people hold in that form wouldn't earn any interest. It would be backed by physical stuff acquired at the time of conversion from fiat money, and the conversion to fiat money would be at market rates for that stuff. At some level (say 10,000 units) you would be able to take money of this type to the Fort Knox equivalent and get: 10 barrels of oil + 1 oz of gold + x amount of NPK + y amount of wheat, etc. You would need some serious transparency for people to trust that the correct amount of physical stuff is being acquired and kept.
If you back a currency with gold then the country ends up stockpiling gold which is not very useful in an emergency. Obviously the country is going to commandeer the stuff and use it in an emergency. There's no point worrying about that: the government is going to do the same with vehicles, crops and everything else if it needs to.
Why not use Energy as a unit of curreny backed by a paper indicator. The MegaWatt Note could be traded but would always have to represent that amount of Energy generation capacity. The only way a country could increase its 'money supply' would be by creating the infrastructure to generate more energy...
As falling Energy output would imply a weakening economy this would be a very strong incentive to tap into the other 99.5% of solar energy currently wasted in order to grow. Another way to grow would be to use existing capacity better -e.g. greater efficiency, another positive feedback...
Merry Christtmas 'n' a happy 2009 btw.
Nick.
Nick, nice idea just one small problem (as the legendary reply to the doomed inventor goes). In this case quite how the community arrives at an agreed measure of how much energy is available. And available at what time under what circumstances, and is wind energy in summer of equal value to diesel energy in a tank?