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153 comments on DrumBeat: December 26, 2008
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153 comments on DrumBeat: December 26, 2008
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GAIA Host Collective
One of the things they know is that they've already had kids. According to medline the average vasectomy patient already has two children.
Sharon
That would be my dad. He believes in zero population, so after two kids, he got snipped.
Zero population?? Are you sure? :)
Zero growth? What's a derivative here or there between friends?
I don't see the point of Americans being so virtuous about reproduction while the Government is admitting millions of immigrants a year. Time for some joined up thinking from the establishment.
Zero population is supposed to be world-wide, not just in the US.
My father is an agronomist who specializes in international agriculture. He's concerned about feeding people, no matter where they live.
I feel no need or obligation to limit my reproduction as long as I can support my family, while Washington admits millions of immigrants, and in the third world people breed like rabbits as the kids they have starve to death.
Fertility limitation must always remain a personal choice. Forced "population control" necessarily creates a controller group and a controlled group -- and you are back to slavery or animal husbandry.
Interesting that in Wyoming people "reproduce", while in other parts of the world they "breed."
Part of the problem with this debate is the assumptions we bring to the table, and the language we use.
Totally agree. In fact I would broaden it: we should be free to blast music, build bombs in our basements, raise cobras in our backyards, dump mercury in the ground water, or even kill someone that pisses us off. Total freedom -- for me, not you.
Or should we reach some agreements so that we can peacably co-exist?
Edit:
Almost everyone at this site recognizes that we are running up against planetary limits. The world population cannot double again without disaster overtaking us on an upprecedented scale. Population control needs to be done as humanely as possible, as flexibly as possible -- but it must be tackled. Most primitive societies in the past that approached the edge always employed some method of population control. We are approaching the edge and we will have to also.
You can't have personal choice for reproduction along with a welfare state -- it's an unscalable solution, even if you ignore unfettered population growth. Which makes more sense -- childless "rich" people taxed heavily while poor people have lots of kids with public support for education, sustenance, and healthcare, or rich people paying a cash "societal impact" fee to have another child while poor people are forcibly sterilized? Taken to extremes neither slant seems tenable, but something has to give.
In a rich society you can afford all sorts of civil niceties. The current notion of "no fault" reproduction isn't one that will persist. Will girls keep having sex with zero-worth guys who will disappear, knowing they'll have to feed the baby or watch it starve? Will local fathers' bring back shotgun weddings versus supporting another generation of grandkids? Will people just start marrying younger once again? Will birth control be practiced reliably and abortions be publicly funded? Will abortions be forced if somebody won't agree to support the child? Will people abstain from sex and go childless? I don't know, but I'm sure before too long the social supports will fracture and fail, and then something will give. We can change things on purpose or refuse to address them and live with the consequences. Change will come, regardless. And it will suck to be poor.
I think it's far more likely that the government will pay people to have children. Governments always seen falling population as a problem, since their ponzi schemes require a constantly expanding base of taxpayers, laborers, soldiers, etc.
We already pay people to have children through tax credits. Other countries such as France provide direct subsidies. Further, those who have no children are charged the same health insurance rates, in many cases, as those who have ten children. I am tired of being ripped off so that other people can be encouraged to have lots of children.
I would say at least in the USA it would be wise to get rid of tax breaks and social benefits after the 1st child, and require birth control of those on welfare. Having said that I cant imagine the government (whom people rightfully distrust) would be able to mandate how many children a family may have. The united states could also stop all immigration, I cant imagine taking a government that asked me to have less children while allowing unfettered immigration would be taken very seriously.
There should not be any tax breaks or other subsidies for children, period. If there are going to be any tax breaks, they should be paid to those who choose to have no children. We need a cap and trade program for children. They are just as much of a threat to the planet as other fossil fuel using activities.
The classic line, "it takes a village to raise a child", comes to mind. If you ask me, I'd suggest there should be all sorts of support for children and mothers. HOWEVER, they have to be designed in such a way as to reduce the birthrate and the population count. Impoverishing children and their care-takers takes us all down the rat hole.
cfm in Gray, ME
Excellent points davebygolly. I recommend Obama appoint you to the new position of 'population czar' and be given full authority to implement the new 'one child per family' policy in the US. I'm sure you will receive the full cooperation of the masses once you explain the gravity of the situation :)
For 4,500 million years nature has sucessfully controlled the numbers of all the species so that no particular one dominates all the others - IMO it is very unlikely that now is any different since collectively humans clearly are not smarter than yeast ... the final bubble to burst is human population!
There are many things that can be done short of forced population control. We could start by recognizing at an official level that we have a problem and that we are going to eliminate things like tax credits for children. While perhaps people should be free to breed, perhaps the rest of us should be free not subsidize the choice of those who want to breed.
Having said that, if the alternative is overshoot and mass dieoff of millions, maybe billions of human beings and other species, a little short term control might be worth it. Freedom has a cost and, in my opinion, some costs are too high. But again, we haven't even tried to reduce population by means that are not coercive.
Actually, we have tried population control by means that coercive. It is called education for women, reasonable access to food and basic resources, basic medical care including birth control, and political power for women, and every where we've tried it, it works like magic. You get TFR levels lower than China's doing that - and it is cheaper than coercive programs.
But, of course, it is simpler to call for things that make the next generation of women poorer, including tax cuts (for the record, I'm in favor of eliminating the child tax credit - but only with social programs in place to ensure that we don't undermine our basic goals - that is, every strategy that impoverishes kids now means that they are likely to have more kids, not fewer in the future. Because poor kids get crappy educations and crappy health care.
As for immigration - worldwide, TFR has fallen dramatically - from 5 to 2.7, and is continuing to fall. But that fall will be arrested unless the rich nations pony up money to address the food crisis - one of the consequences of chronic malnutrition in children is lowered IQ - and that means more babies later on. We're all going through a massive contraction of resources, but unless the rich world is willing to contract a little extra and work on the basic question of equity, the population question is essentially hopeless. But it is much easier to turn to coercive methods - those don't cost us anything.
Sharon
The key will be if a stabilized population or an appropriately reduced population occurs before overshoot and mass dieoff. Yes, what you say is all true but will the actual overall reduction in world population occur in time. Not sure the measures you talk about will occur fast enough to have a sufficient effect. And what do we do with the rich but backward countries like Saudi Arabia? Bomb them?
Yes, I agree with the social program aspect. Start with universal health care at least for children. And a program that provides sufficient food. But I am still against any tax credits for having children.
Oh, yeh. And what about the Mormons? Aren't they generally pretty well educated and pretty well off. It's that religion thing that still causes a lot of problems despite all the other issues.
Don't get me wrong. I love children. Just not too many.
I'm afraid that ship has already sailed... overshoot (check your mirrors), dieoff (straight ahead).
While overbreeders still fill me with disgust, I'm gradually coming around to acceptance that it is too late to matter. Go ahead, breed like salmon. Maybe one infant in 10,000 will survive to adulthood.
What worries me is that the factors that are currently reducing world fertility rates are likely to unwind in the future. The world is going to get a lot poorer. Does anyone seriously expect improvement in health care, infrastructure, and education for women in such a future? I expect the opposite. We are going to lose ground - heading back to a world where children are your social security.
Urbanization is the other big factor in falling family sizes. Ten kids are useful labor on the farm, but a burden in a small city apartment. If we go back to subsistence farming, like many peak oilers hope/expect, family sizes will once again increase.
I agree with you, Leanan, but I don't think it is inevitable (and certainly not in every place) that we have to allow "getting poorer" to mean pushing up fertility. IMHO, we have the resources remaining to make it an absolute priority to keep the conditions that reduce fertility in place. The total energy and economic costs for female educations and birth control, as well as even basic health care (doesn't have to be the high cost model we have now - you can get similar lifespans with 1/10th the energy and cost) are very small.
Do I think this will happen? Probably in some places, but not world wide. But there is no question that the choice was available to us, and the reality of violent population decline will be a reality of people who have chosen, on some level, to allow hideous suffering rather than reallocate resources wisely. Of course, the same could be said of peak oil and climate change in general. But I do think that moving it from the table of inevitable to "choice" matters here - when we talk about it in the passive voice we erase moral responsibility.
Sharon
If you interweave moral responsibility and personal choice, then each of us has to take some fractional responsibility for the starving children in Africa as well as the urban poor. It's easier to not, and hope they quietly starve out of sight.
It's because we have Stone Age brains. We've reached the point where what we do has influence on the other side of the world, but our morality is still Stone-Aged, and it's hard-coded in our brains. There's been some fascinating research about this.
Whose Life Would You Save?
I've always said that I think we have the resources to "fix" peak oil...but we won't do it. That's the problem.
Climate change...I'm not sure we could fix that. I think we may be too far along to fix that one. Sure, we could move people away from the coasts, etc., but that wouldn't fix the problem of a food system tweaked to grow crops in climates that no longer exist.
I've always said that I think we have the resources to "fix" peak oil
If the 'leadership class' will be put off their feedbag, the fix for peak oil won't happen.
Ten kids are useful labor on the farm, but a burden in a small city apartment. If we go back to subsistence farming, like many peak oilers hope/expect, family sizes will once again increase.
Conversion of photons to electrical power to useful work is cheaper than photons to plants to food to humans to useful work. Adding the 'intelligence' to that machine work is the rub.
A shortage of humans to take care of old humans at end of life is (partially) why Japan has spent so much on their robots. Cheap, durable robotic farm labor will beat out breeding. Not to mention how you gonna keep 'em down on the farm after they have seen gay olde Paris?
I don't remember the quote exactly because I am high in the Rockies right now and away from all my files in Pensacola. But it goes something like this:
I should have said, "in a democracy, fertility limitation must always remain a personal choice."
Garrett Hardin's solution was not democracy, but some version of a command economy. That doesn't make him wrong -- democracy may be fundamentally flawed.
The United States is not a democracy, but the political spinners want us to believe we are. So they will have to come up with clever ways to coerce population control, and make it seem like it is our own choice. I have no doubt that is possible.
That statement is fascinating! I assume you are aware that the resources necessary for one American is 25 acres of productive agricultural land while the worldwide average is just above 5 acres. That is five times above the world average. If you take the current U.S. population of 305,491,777 multiplied by five totals: 1,527,458,885.
That makes the U.S.the most populous nation on earth. Last month in New Scientist they made a comprehensive list of the 20 most effective things you can do to reduce your impact on the earth or to be "greener" and number one was "Don't reproduce".
If you still need additional persuasion might I respectfully suggest you read Garrett Hardin's influential article Tragedy of the Commons"
http://www.dieoff.org/page95.htm
After that if you remain unconvinced then I would have to say that you leave a lot of us wondering whether the least fit to reproduce will over time become the new paradigm.
Joe
http://www.duggarfamily.com/
Looks like the run up to 20 is a for profit exercise. Making money at what you're good at - making kids.
No hope for them...as it seems it's all done in the name of "God".
Pete
Joe, what I stated, to clarify is that I feel no obligation to control my reproduction as long as the government continues to alow massive immigration. As far as Americans using more farmland, well we have more farmland per capita to use.
In the end it won't matter if you, your fellow Americans, or immigrants choose to multiply, as certainly somebody will, and before long they'll come knocking on the door for food and shelter.
An earlier post mentioned the unpleasant eventuality of a political class who determines who lives and who starves -- this almost has to happen given any sort of managed procreation. If we fence the borders and educate the masses and re-slant social structures, we might avoid it internally, but we will then just be helping to pick who dies in Africa or Asia.
For the egalitarian thinkers who struggle with the notion of life as a privilege of power, perhaps the best you can hope for is an epidemic die-off. This is becoming increasingly likely due to the apparently simplicity of basic genetic engineering. Now you, too, can do it at home for fun and profit. Why worry about passing along your personal DNA, when you can create a novel life-form instead?
Surely it's only a matter of time before a sociopathic genius gives his favorite Horseman a leg-up?
Surely it's only a matter of time before a sociopathic genius gives his favorite Horseman a leg-up?
Nothing stopping the casual sociopath from raising bacteria in an environment with a low background level of antibiotics to bio-select for resistance.
The sociopath would need to find pathogenic bacteria first, and would also need a supply of whatever the current generation of antibiotics are. Presuming this sociopath has the skills not to kill himself before his experiments are successful, he has merely duplicated the effects of excessive antibiotics use in agriculture and hospitals. This arms race has been in progress for a while.
You mean our industrial food system and disease care system?
That's rich. You're asserting that America has five times as much farmland as other nations so that is a valid justification for profligacy?
Gollum, do you have any current figures about arable land in the U.S. versus other countries? I would wager you don't.
The "Tragedy of the Commons" is based on a false premis, under the concept of Private Property there should be no "Commons". The "Tragedy" has been the use of this Doctorin to establish all kinds of controls, Bureaucracies, property restrictions, with their associated corruption.
If a privately owned SUV that you might drive produces exhaust, is the air around the SUV not a commons?
If our rating system was working I'd give you a thumbs up. ;)
Anyone know when the rating system is getting fixed?
TS
I hear that theory from time to time. Usually people who advocate it draw the line between public and private all the same, just in different places (public army good, public healthcare bad, for instance). Then they try to defend why where they draw the line is the only "right and true" place to draw the line and they get quite agitated about it.
However, we have never spoken so perhaps it's unfair to ascribe my past experience to you.
Great! I want to own the air. I'm going to charge people if they want to breathe.
For those who would like to read more about Garrett Hardin, author of The Tragedy of the Commons, see:
http://www.garretthardinsociety.org/
At this site one can also find a picture of Garrett with Walter Youngquist and Buz Ivanhoe. The Garrett Hardin papers are in the Special Collections of the UCSB library.
Oh, I see. "As long as I can support my family", meaning you intend to support them, all their offspring, and the total environmental impact of this? Forever? Narrow-gauge thinking. And quit denigrating rabbits.
In supporting our family and those to come, we kill others, including those non human species that get crowded out of habitat used to support us. None of us support squat without extracting from mother earth, which we arrogantly think we own. We think we are the end and all be all and that is why we are heading for mass dieoff.