How does a 4.07 reduction in demand result in a price drop to a quarter of its former value? I don't understand that. Does anyone have any theories about the precipitous price decline?

Kevin Walsh
Chicago Peak Oil

october's price (wti monthly) was down by a factor of 1.75 from july's peak.

kevin,

There was a lot of debate back when prices peaked as to the effect of speculators in the futures market. In particular was the supposed effect of the credit crunch forcing many of those players to liquidate their positions in a rather rushed manner and thus crushed the price support. The price swings we've seen seem to support that theory IMO. Following that the thought, the futures market should swing back to a more reality based flow. Add the potential OPEC production cuts and we could see a significant rise in prices in 2 or 3 months. I've seen it speculated eslewhere that such an expectatioin is being seen in longer term future contracts.

Depletion Marches On

Speaking of OPEC, Indonesia (a founding member of OPEC) is a good example of net export rate versus cumulative remaining net oil exports. I put the final production peak for Indonesia in 1996. The following percentages are net oil exports as a percentage of the 1996 net oil export rate (left) and cumulative remaining post-1996 net oil exports as a percentage of the 1996 number (right), for Indonesia (EIA).

1996: 100% & 100%
1997: 85% & 78%
1998: 91% & 56%
1999: 78% & 37%
2000: 63% & 21%
2001: 46% & 10%
2002: 27% & 3%
2003: 13% & 0%
2004: Net Oil Importer

In 1998, note that the net export rate was only down by about 10% from the 1996 rate, but the cumulative remaining net oil exports were down by close to half.

By the time that net exports were down by about half, in 2001, cumulative remaining net oil exports were down by 90%.

Mexico is following the same trajectory as Indonesia (both consumed about half of production at final production peaks). The top five will follow the same pattern; it will just take a little longer for them to approach zero.

There have been comments that the ELM model doesn't properly capture internal demand changes relative to cost shifts as oil depletes.

I wonder if cost and price for oil are in reality moot (no graphs, whether ELM or Hubbert, include price in the model)? If prices are high, exporting countries have money to spend and use more internally, but they also have money to spend on production technology and drilling. If prices are low, then exporting countries have less money to spend and may use less internally, but they also have less to invest in production, and presumably production will drop.

If the effect is roughly linear, then I think the end of exports will happen at the same date regardless of price, only the amount of oil left for subsequent internal use would increase. The curve would be lower and flatter, in essence, but cross the ELM zero point at about the same date.

I know this is a bit more pessimistic than the original discussions, but I guess we can watch Mexico this year and see how production and exports fare with low prices and a slow internal economy.

Regarding oil prices, US annual oil prices didn't cross the $40 mark until 2004, when Indonesia became a net importer. The 1997 to 2003 decline corresponded to annual oil prices in the $14 to $31 range.

As I've been saying since the summer, there doesn't have to be a good reason for a price decline if it follows a run-up that also wasn't supportable on simple supply/demand changes.

The current price is below what I think it "should" be at this level of supply/demand (which doesn't mean that it can't/won't go lower - it very possibly will), but it isn't unusual to overshoot to the downside if prices previously overshot to the upside.

Let's just hope that the gas price stays low for another two months , so that all the bone_heads around have time enough to buy a brand new SUV .... (before the hikes start all over again)

It's important to remember that oil is traded on the world market. What happens in the U.S. does not determine the world price since it's relatively easy to ship oil from one market to another. Given that the U.S. has been a wealthy nation lately, we have been able to pay the higher prices to purchase the oil we want. Other nations are not so fortunate, so one must consider the change in total world demand. Also, the production of oil can not be rapidly decreased (or increased), as the wells are drilled and the borrowing to do so must be repaid. The producers continue to pump and the last barrels pumped can't be sold when supply exceeds demand, so the price drops. The reverse happens when demand exceeds supply, as may have happened during last summer's price spike.

E. Swanson

There are as many theories as there are analysts. I am not convinced that anyone really knows and have given up worrying about it. There was an article in energy bulletin the other day that made a pretty convincing case that no one really understands what is going on. If someone really does understand and I were convinced they did, I would pay close attention to them and make a ton of money in the process. In the mean time, I am sticking to the theory that prices will rebound; I just don't know when. Buy and hold.

It's not just a 4% reduction in demand. The decline in oil prices represents an "unknown" future decline in demand in addition to the 4%.

6 months ago, it was assumed the demand would be higher in 2009. Now we know it is not going to be as high. No matter what happens, that is a certainty. Much industrial capacity is already scheduled to be taken offline, so we know for sure that we wont need as much oil. The degree of certainty that there will be oversupply is what drives the price down.

Go back in time 10 years and look at oil supply and demand. It was a similar situation, except now the potential demand destruction is greater. $5 a barrel isnt out of the question. That probably wont happen until after the next round of destructive "economic stimulus", Obama style. (Note it was the last stimulus that drove oil to $147.)

excuse me, but where do you get such ideas from .... 5 dollars / barrel ? It's less than a Big Mac in my country slightly more than a bottle of water ..... Man,

Many producers would close the spigots looooong befor that scenario could theoretically happen.

"No matter what happens,..."

unless demand is higher.

Kevin,
The theory is the amount of excess supply determines the price. If there is not enough oil to go around, suddenly the price takes huge leaps upwards, but with just a small decrease in demand (i.e. enough for everyone again) the price drops precipitously.

I am not an economist but supposedly this is well known. Can anyone out there explain it better?

1)we are looking at Feb 09 contract right now - I suspect that when Feb numbers are released there will be a much greater drop YoY than 4%.

2)The concept of price elasticity only works to a point on a non-storable commodity like oil (i.e. storable but with small limits). If storage is full, and even for a few weeks/months time demand is lower than supply, then price has to drop beyond where it would be in a 'normally' functioning economy. Lots of people think oil is cheap, but lots of people also think its going to $10. Watch distillate demand and the shipping indexes (which have really crashed). If those perk up, then oil prices will too- if not then it could be a long wait for demand drop to outpace decline rates, though the recent cuts may start to bite in a month or two.

3)While all commodities have plunged since July (not Gold but the rest), I suspect grains and NG will bounce before oil. Reduction in capital investments in oil and it's substitutes take years to be felt, whereas drops in rig rates will have impact in same year for Nat Gas (though rig plunge is still ahead of us - we are as yet only down about 350 rigs from 1600+ peak). For grains, drops in purchases of seeds or fertilizer will be felt within 6 months, as the entire crop comes to market each year. All of these commodities (except for gold, which is a perceived inflationary/crisis hedge), have built in negative feedback loops - its just a question of how fast the negative feedback occurs. With oil, it will likely be on the slow side - e.g. we might have a 10% YoY drop in crude supply and still have low prices.

All this volatility is like a sonic shock wave with differing amplitude each iteration- low prices inhibit production meaning less product next time around. As events progress, the timing intervals between lows and high prices are going to get shorter and shorter. There is a (meaningful) chance that the July 2008 all time peak in production may also prove to be the all time high in price. I would roughly guess that there is a 30% chance of NO new higher high/energy investment cycles and this is start of permanent great depression - e.g. when fundamentals again support $148 oil, no economic social democracy in the world will be able to afford it and nationalization, stoppage of futures trading, etc. will have occurred along the way. I think a 60% chance that there is one more 'energy bull market' run, where the economy partially reloads, and oil demand outstrips supply and we have significantly higher world prices, for a time. Finally, I put at 10% chance there are TWO more of these cycles left, albeit shorter in length both within and between. In any case, as the amplitude gets narrower each time, there will be fewer (public and national) energy companies making money, as receding horizons on energy costs loom closer.

What to do? Depends if you are an individual or a government.

If you think about it, ALL of us spend our lives trying to get enough abstract wealth to turn it into real wealth when we retire (land, vacation home, books, time with friends, nature hikes, garden, etc.) This energy crisis will just accelerate the timing of this mass 'investment re-allocation' from financial to real capital. My 30/60/10 distribution is just suggestive that though there are still a great deal of variables in play, there is a non-zero chance you may not have years ahead to capitalize on energy investments and transfer dollars into real capital.

From policy perspective, big, bold, and painful decisions need to be made now, to emphasize energy and basic goods over throwing good money (and resources) after dead-end endeavors.

Nicely put.

My observation is that the market is a teacher who gives a continuous seminar, and the speed by which participants learn is much slower, as a group, than the speed by which the clever kids learn. (like yourself). So, while you have moved on to the likely price action in a post-peak era, with a model for increasing amplitude of price along with shorter durations between the waves, much of the world remains decidedly unclear about such things, and is very likely still crowded into the Mean Reversion room. I do think global participants are learning. But, from the vantage point of someone going faster, they may appear stuck.

Because of this phenomenon, I think the world may have several more learning stages to go through with oil, which would mean that there may be a few more price-phases up ahead. Oh, I do think your Amplitude model will punch through and assert itself quite strongly. However, it strikes me that for a good length of time before the world admits defeat and accepts the narrow corner created by growth vs. affordability of oil, we may need to go through three more distinct price phases that I see as follows: 1. The "classical" Peak Oil price phase, characterized by a new understanding and acceptance of limitation on flows. In this phase, participants are optimistic that the world can live within the newly accepted production ceiling. Conservation is accepted, and fluctuations in Days Supply upward are still seen as confirmation that we can cope. Oil is still not priced based on finite reserves. 2. The geo-political price phase, characterized by a new understanding that those who have oil have much more power than previously accepted and those who don't have much less. (Again, this framing may already be obvious to some, considered by more--but is still not close to any kind of widespread understanding). In this price phase, anxiety rises strongly and other hydrocarbons such as NG and coal start to get priced for their strategic value especially in countries like the US which have a lot more coal and NG than oil. 3. The Reserves or Wealth value price stage, characterized by a final breaking-free from value-in-use pricing of Oil. In this stage, oil is priced like money. It's not necessarily used as money (though I could see an oil certificate currency come in to play). In this phase, the Peak Oil value and the geo-political value are fully incorporated into the price. Also, there is still alot of work to be performed on the planet, and even if oil has been priced too high for most users, oil still performs labor. So the value-in-use price still exists, but becomes subordinate the new money valuation of oil.

Ultimately, it's oil's chemical properties that will drive these phases. There appears to be no escape from the pull exerted by oil's concentrated energy, in liquid form. Even in an era of pressured EROI.

For the investor who still intends to do further Alchemy of Capital work in the years ahead, I would position between your Amplitude Model on price (and impending structural change in the global economy)--and--the phenomenon whereby the herd is an ongoing learning phase, and because they are slow and because they hold the capital, they do determine price.

;-)



I agree, that explains it all.

The NYMEX is where two people exchange bet. One bets it goes up and the other bets it goes down. When the contract is up, one wins and one looses.

My experience is that I am more likely to be the jumpee rather than the jumper.

Through September YTD marketable natural gas production in Canada is down 6.4%. Through November, well completions are down 18% to 9,684. In the 1990's less than half this number of well completions brought increasing natural gas production.

Regarding the price of 'oil', folks want to remember that the marginal barrel sets the price. The ~86th million barrel is a very expensive barrel to bring to market each morning and therefore a rare and pricey barrel.

" All this volatility is like a sonic shock wave......"

maybe it will develope into a tsunami and when the wave hits shallower water(whatever that means*), the acceleration will be converted to amplitude and swamp everything.

* probably the dreaded collapse. i'm feeling doomerish already.

Reduction in new investment does have a substantial lag, but opec cuts will be felt quicker than, say, new crops. As I noted above, oil is the only commodity that has a relatively effective cartel... even 50% compliance is far more effective than no cartel at all. IMO compliance is growing, we will likely see at least 3mb/d cuts implemented by jan, and this will affect stock levels everywhere in a few months. Meanwhile, demand is growing on account of low price, suv's are selling relatively briskly.

As far as gold goes, look at any jewelry store in any mall - they were all dead just before xmas, imagine jan. And, this lack of buying is duplicated in asia, much more important than here. In fact, people are selling their old jewelry, which is becoming a new highly productive mine. Industrial uses are down, though not so much, too. THe only demand is fear... we are in a deflationary economy, the only thing supporting gold is that short-term treasuries pay nothing. Eventually fear will dissipate, treasuries will pay some yield, and gold will crash.

I agree with all that except for the 'fear will dissipate' part.
And notice of physical deliveries of gold and silver are going to make for some interesting dilemmas for COMEX and ETF admin in 09. Look at trend of deliveries vs stock %s.

I think that people will lose confidence in the transparency and credibility of financial markets in general and the US stock exchanges in particular and turn to hard assets. This will be supportive of gold bullion prices which already have a higher than typical premiums over the contract spot price.
Gold has outperformed the Dow for the past 3 years and will continue to do so. IMHO

I think the graph of Icelandic Cod Fish Biomass, posted in Drumbeat for December 27, might be a good model for future oil production:

The big question is which oil price a recessionary or even deflationary world economy can afford. What if that oil price is so low that parts of the expensive oil supply system start to collapse?

As is well documented here at TOD, world (C+C) oil production is peaked at ~80 million barrels/day and declining at ~5-10%/year. Gold is real money. Gold's world production is peaked at ~80 million troy ounces (2500 metric tonnes) per YEAR and probably declining. The oil to gold yearly production ratio is ~365 barrels of oil to 1 troy ounce of gold. This is a relatively inelastic ratio. The US dollar is being debased through exponential money printing and is rapidly becoming irrelevant as a store a value. Therefore, it is more useful to discuss the price of oil in real money (gold) than to price it in the dollar. It is the flaw of the dollar and the debt based money system that allowed the credit bubble ($147/barrel) and collapse ($40/barrel). After the dollar gets done dying, the world will still need oil.

The oil producers are not just selling the oil that they produced today but are also selling the oil they pumped yesterday and didn't sell.

And once their storage is full they have to shut down wells and lay off people, which means they sell less oil etc........

So the price goes lower, and lower

Ed

I have several written articles on the subject of the big oil-price drop relative to the drop in demand. The current financial issues (including collapse of credit) seem to be playing a significant role in the situation. Those making comments to my articles also have some interesting insights.

See:

Why are Gasoline (and Oil) Prices So Low, and Where Are They Headed Dec. 8, 2008

Impact of the Credit Crisis on the Energy Industry - Where Are We Now? Dec. 1, 2008

Oil Prices, a Little More of the Story Oct. 27, 2008

Why Are Oil and Gasoline Prices So Low Oct. 22, 2008

US is 'only' 1/4 of world market, so 4% US decline is 1% world decline. However, china also sharply cut oil imports just as the olympics began having previously stocked a substantial amount to assure no shortages during their coming out party. Perhaps world demand declined 2%, mostly on account of high prices.

However, opec has been producing all they could since 2004, resulting in a production increase this year of around 1.5%, boosting world production to a record this summer. So the combination of new supplies plus declining demand was around 3-4%.

This is a very large and relatively sudden change in direction of the supply/demand tug of war, reversing the 2003-2008 environment. Western stocks rebounded, refiners had to curtail deliveries. Then a one-time event occurred - hedge funds, facing redemptions, had to cut their commodity holdings. However, this effect is either over or nearly so.

IMO we are now moving into a new era, one where opec is once again in control, surprising many at tod, including me. I thought opec was a spent force, unable to pump enough to maintain prices under three figures... however, their announced cuts are nearly 5% of all liquids, an amount that is more than sufficient to raise prices back to 100, except that cheating has, so far, prevented about half the cuts from being implemented. However, the various countries seem to be becoming more serious, more are announcing compliance daily. Meanwhile, low prices are stoking demand, suv's are once again selling well as of this month and overall driving is rising. IMO opec will cut enough to bring prices at least to saudi desired 75/b level by mid-year, maybe sooner.

Those who think that oil usage must be curtailed will naturally cheer opec cuts and the higher prices they bring. Better, of course, to tax ourselves, but we don't have the political will or popular support for such a policy. OPEC is also useful for investors, note that oil is the only commodity with a relatively effective cartel. Oil price has occasionally dipped during this century's runup in price, and each time was an extremely good entry point for investors. And we are coming closer to the permanent decline, indeed we might never really recover from the opec cuts.

Better, of course, to tax ourselves, but we don't have the political will or popular support for such a policy

And that tax should be used for infrastructure to make us less dependent on oil. Oil price volatility and Gail's above graph of gyrating production is a guarantee that there will be no smooth transition to electric or other "green" cars.

OPEC has become a negative swing producer.

Kevin, I've had the same thoughts, but think of it this way. When there is no extra capacity in the system, people bid up the price and there really is no limit to the upside. But as soon as there's extra capacity, and quite a bit of it, the price will drop to soak that extra capacity up. We have tons of extra capacity now, and that's the reason the price is low.
Philip Arnason