Moved my accounts to my credit union several years ago. My only business with a bank is to maintain a safe deposit box.

Save it, not spend it? Yeah, trying as best as I can, and have been for most of my life, too.

You might want to reconsider the safe deposit box. There is, of course, a risk if the bank goes bankrupt that you will find it difficult to get into your box. But the larger risk is from the gov't, that it will order seizures of wealth, ordering the banks to deny access to the box until it can assess values.

http://www.isil.org/towards-liberty/safe-deposit.html

This has happened before!

Home safes are relatively inexpensive. Do a little research and you can find one right for you. It should be both a theft and fire safe, preferably one that can be bolted to the floor. You can get a smaller one for around $300 that is probably larger than your bank box.

Your estimate of my personal financial situation is greatly exagerated! I have nothing in my bank safe deposit box that I would need immediate access to, and not much of anything that I expect the government would be interested in confiscating.

I am tempted, though, to place some rude, anti-government joke in the box just so there will be something there to reward them for their efforts, if it comes to that!

I would only recommend a safe that has to be placed with a crane or one made for encasing in concrete.

WNC,
What is the reasoning for movement of funds to Credit Unions?

I still have an active credit union account in Raleigh but only keep a small amount there to keep it open. I may rethink that very soon if there is a reasonable excuse for doing so.

Hows the weather down yonder?

Airdale-bout to run out of sourwood honey. Is it getting a bit pricy now? Last I picked up at Farmers Market on my last trip through Asheville was about $12 /qt.

Hi, airdale.

Weather OK, but about to turn really cold. I've been working off my own honey supply so haven't had to by any for a while. Summer 2008 wasn't a good sourwood flow year, but on the other hand Fall 2008 wasn't a good tourism season, so prices might not be much different.

My reasons for moving to the credit union are mostly ideological. I am just super fed up with Corporate America, and am very much more favorably inclined to cooperatives of whatever form when and where I can find them. Credit Unions are essentially a financial cooperative, the depositors (that includes ME) own them, and they are supposed to operate on behalf of US rather than raking in big profits for fat cat CEOS and investors. I am sure they are not perfect, and some credit unions are better than others. But I have had it with "banksters" (to revive a very fitting depression-era term) and other big corporations, and am actively seeking to detach myself,and especially my money, from their grasp wherever I can.

I wish there were more co-ops around for all sorts of things. Thirty years ago I belonged to an HMO that was actually set up as a co-op, and it was wonderful. Then someone had the bright idea of changing it and selling it to some corporation, and that was that. I envy the few folks that have REMC and telephone co-op service, instead of having to pay these big corporate leaches wired into our houses.

My wife and I were just talking about the loss of co-ops the other day. Back in the seventies/early eighties I belonged to several different food coops. And co-ops for different things seemed to be popping up all over. And then they just started disappearing. Now I can't even find a food co-op on our area, only those "buyers clubs" that give you little to no choice about what you get each week.

What happened to the co-op movement?

i was on the board of our little, local food coop. The usual practice was to have a once a month buy; everyone would go through the food list, prepay and the truck would show up one Saturday morning and the food would be picked up.

This worked fine for a number of years...until the members wanted a real store. Ugh! That meant renting a small building, actual inventory, having a paid manager, buying equipment, electric bills, phone bills and everything that goes along with a business. It was open six days a week with the board members working a Saturday now and then.

It was a disaster and was eventually sold to a couple who turned it into a real "organic" store at a bigger location which is still in business 20 years later. Why did the members want the change? I could never really figure it out. Perhaps, it was because they actually didn't do anything to make it happen except raise their hand during the vote. Yes, there was a wider selection of stuff and they didn't have to come up with the money all at once for a month's worth of food. But, they wrecked something that was good for the community. FWIW, I voted against it.

Todd

I'm on the board of the food coop here. It was a buyer's club until we got a generous, but modest loan from an anonymous donor.

We have a very small store and getting it up a going was a chore. We've been open for almost a year now and are doing okay.

No disrespect to our wonderful volunteers, but for the most part people don't care enough to commit any time to it.

As long as we can keep our overhead low and the Whole Foods down the road is still "delayed" we should be able to survive.

A retail store selling anything is a pretty challenging enterprise. Most of them are started by individuals, and most of them don't last for more than a year or so. You are right, there are a lot of things involved in setting them up and running a store.

Most food co-ops seem to thrive best where there is a certain "critical mass" of people that will patronize them. You are more likely to find that in big cities and in college towns than you are in small towns. To be safe, a buying club probably should continue operating as a buying club until they are well above the number of patrons needed to make a store work.

There are some intermediate steps that buying clubs could take. They could start renting someplace that is other than prime retail space but that has space for storage and processing and distributing orders. The days and times when food is available for pickup could be extended. Non-perishable items could be purchased in larger quantities, stored, and distributed over multiple months (with some arrangement made for enough funds to be built up to cover the inventory being carried). Buying clubs should try these smaller intermediate steps first before committing to taking the retail store plunge; if they have trouble making these little things work, then they certainly won't find that running a full retail operation is easier.

shaman - obviously they did not work or they would still be there. Why don't you start one?

Hi TtheD, Todd, Shaman and all,

Here's a link to the national co-op grocers' association.
http://www.ncga.coop/

They do quite a bit to help establish co-ops, from what I've heard, and also help (no extra charge), in all kinds of ways for co-ops already in existence, including financial consulting, etc.

I gave a short presentation on "peak" the other day to the Board of our local food co-op.

Two out of 6 members had heard about "peak oil"; the rest had no idea what it meant.

I was asked by one member to return with more specifics about how "peak" relates, and what they should do.

Any suggestions? I'm working on a list.

What I'd really appreciate some help on: this co-op is doing well, financially, and they want to expand. Specifically, they want to purchase a building, whereas, at the present time, they're paying rent.

I tried to tell them that my view is the housing market has not stopped falling, and the commercial real estate market will soon follow.

They don't seem to believe me. Is there any way you can think of I might make the case?

Also, speaking of the organization above, for a long time I've had the thought that ideally, ASPO or TOD or Bob Shaw or someone (?) should do "targeted" outreach. Of course, my few efforts at same have gone largely unrewarded.

I think the best you can do is show them quotes/vids from the people who keep getting it right and what their current guesses are for the future.

Meredith Whitney - she has the most cred with regular folks, ie - not seen as a nut.

Peter Schiff - now seen as prescient, but people still think his future picks are wrong.

The Automatic Earth

And show them the graphs floating around with more mortgage resets coming the through 2011. Finally, the many articles on the expected, and in-progress crash in retail real estate.

That's all got!

Cheers

EDIT: Here's a nice piece via The Automatic Earth

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dean-baker/right-to-rent-helping-hom_b_156...

Edit 2: This is the one you need: http://www.financialweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090112/REG/901...

Yes, buying commercial real estate right now would probably be a really bad move.

You could show this this from Calculated Risk:

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/01/retail-sales-collapse-in-decem...

With that sort of collapse, there will be lots more real estate available soon. If they buy now they are almost certainly going to take a significant loss.

PO issues relevant to a food co-op - a partial, off the top of my head, list:

- Transport of foodstuffs will eventually become more expensive, and may be subject to disruption. It is important that food co-ops actively seek out and patronize sources of supply for all goods that are located as close as possible. There may be a trade off between short-term cost savings and long-term food security (which could be achieved through long-term contracts with local suppliers); the patrons need to be educated and this issue needs to be discussed thoroughly.

- You might also give some thought to inventory management for food security. What if you can't get deliveries for items supplied from outside your local area for a month or two? What non-perishable but essential foodstuffs (like grains and legumes, for example) should be stocked and stored in larger quantities to assure that your patrons can still eat? What type of storage facilities might you need to build or acquire to store these larger quantities safe from rodents, insects, spoilage, theft?

- Energy to operate the food co-op building will eventually become more expensive. Electricity may become more unreliable and subject to increasingly frequent and prolongued blackouts. The food co-op might want to consider investing in DC-powered refrigerators and freezers, a battery bank, and rooftop solar panels to assure that losses of perishable stock are minimized. A passive solar heated store would be a wonderful long-term goal; at the very least, you might need to have a wood stove or two and lay in a supply of wood. You need to have a plan for operating without grid electricity for up to a week or more.

- How are your patrons going to get to the co-op to get their food? While some might live within walking distance, many will not. Motor fuel will become more expensive, and your area might experience supply disruptions lasting several weeks or more (as my area did this past September). You might want to give some thought to maintaining a good database of member contact records, and developing communications systems, so that you can develop one or more ways for members living near each other to link up and cooperate together to get to and from the co-op. Perhaps neighbors could take turns doing shopping for a group of neighbors, for example. Maybe there are other ways the co-op and its members could work together, perhaps in cooperation with local transport systems, to solve the transport system - research and discuss!

- The US is likely to be experiencing a very long period of economic decline. The good news is that this is likely to increase the number of people interested in becoming co-op patrons - IF the food co-op focuses on helping households to stretch their food budgets. You need to anticipate this growth in patronage and plan for it. The bad news is that more and more people are going to be experiencing severe economic difficulty. There will be people in your community that should be co-op members, and would greatly benefit from being co-op members, but can't afford the initial membership. You might want to consider raising donations for some sort of need-based grant program to cover these people. It is also likely that many patrons will have to cut back on their food budget. Expensive items that used to sell well might start sitting on the shelf, while you might find yourself wiped out of inexpensive but nourishing foods. You need to have a system to keep close track of changing purchase patterns, and be able to shift your stocking patterns quickly. You are also likely to have increasing numbers of patrons who no longer have enough money to buy what they need. What are you going to do about this? The time to think this through and decide what to do is before the problem gets too severe.

Besides the ideological reasons (which I share), I am also under the impression that credit unions do not (are not allowed to) engage in the "fractional reserve lending" game that is putting banks at peril if a small percentage of their loans go sour. But I have not been able to find good solid info on the reserve requirements for credit unions (in the USA). Does anybody have such?

www.ncua.gov

Try it. You'll like it.

Remember to POWER DOWN.

I can't find there an answer to my question?

Hint, Hint,

Look in the "Regulations" section. PDF

I did.

I am wondering if any Credit Unions have gone bankrupt or had runs on them.

Just how safe are they.

Yes CA...I checked the regulations. Its rather disparate and ..well its seems like a lot of 'wordsmanship' and lawyer natter.

What is the real bottom line,,if you know the answer. I get a statement monthly and have had an account for about 30 yrs there,yet never a real clue as to how well they are run,,,and the name keeps changing. Now my previous employers name is nowhere in the paperwork or letterhead or anywhere visible , to me that means they have morphed quite a bit into something else. Just what I am not sure for I have only enough in it for a credit card and good fees on that and enough to keep an acct open.

Airdale

Thanks WNC,

Good luck for this years honey flow. I had hoped to start building my own supers this winter but its cold out there in the pole barn. Maybe I can hammer out at least one and get a freebie hive from a neighbor.

I was thinking of a Nuc Hive.

As to CUs. Do they do fractional banking?

I guess I need to study up on this before moving funds.

I have a 90 yr old mother with some substantial funds that my son is letting take a big dive on Vanguard S@P 500 investments.

I want to pull it all out and put it away in safe keeping since we are in a deflation spiral. Then make some wise small investments.

Thanks for the idea,
Airdale in collllldddddd WKY...

http://www.snowpeakapiaries.com/Home/VYCAGE.html works fine.

You can find some good queen rearing books at Google.

airdale:

My understanding is that CUs make loans to members, and it is the money that members have deposited that is loaned out. That, by definition, is fractional reserve banking.

It is not possible to earn interest on savings without the financial institution being able to lend your moeny out to someone that will pay them interest. If one doesn't like that, then there really isn't much point in having money on deposit with ANY financial institution. Put it in a bank safe deposit box, maybe, or buy a safe. Or there is always the Bank of Matress.

I do think that because CUs just do business with their own members, that fences them in quite a bit and severely limits the amount of monkey business they can get themselves into. Because they only lend to members, they already know their customer. They tend not to get into things like commercial real estate loans, that can be very risky.

----

Be careful about using those "freebe hives", unless you are able to get it fumigated. Too many diseases and things these days.

A Nuc is the best way to go until you've already got several hives in your apiary. Once you have several, you can do splits to make more for yourself. On the other hand, if money is really tight, you can always team up with a more experienced beekeeper that is on the call list for swarm capture. If you supply the woodenware and volunteer to do much of the hard work of getting to the bees, they might help you capture a free colony for yourself.