64 comments on Oilwatch Monthly March 2009
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
64 comments on Oilwatch Monthly March 2009
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Google search
Blogroll
- ASPO The official site of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil & Gas.
- Energy Bulletin Clearing house for news regarding the peak in global energy supply.
- PowerSwitch Dedicated to raising awareness & discussion of the impending & permanent decline of cheap oil & gas supply.
- ODAC Oil Depletion Analysis Centre working to raise awareness and promote better understanding of the world's oil-depletion problem.
- Global Public Media Public service broadcasting for a post carbon world.
- Post Carbon Institute Learning to live in a low energy world.
- PeakOil.com US site and forum to educate and promote awareness of global hydrocarbon depletion.
- FEASTA The Foundation for the Economics of Sustainability
- Tradable Energy Quotas (TEQs) This website describes an effective and fair response both to climate change and oil/gas depletion
- Aleklett's Energy Mix Global Energy Systems, Peak Oil, etc
- www.SamassaVeneessä.info Finnish peak oil site
Other Blogs
User login
Personnel
Editors
Contributors
Peak Oil Primers
Archives
- March 2010
- February 2010
- January 2010
- December 2009
- November 2009
- October 2009
- September 2009
- August 2009
- July 2009
- June 2009
- May 2009
- April 2009
- March 2009
- February 2009
- January 2009
- December 2008
- November 2008
- October 2008
- September 2008
- August 2008
- July 2008
- June 2008
- May 2008
- April 2008
- March 2008
- February 2008
- January 2008
- December 2007
- November 2007
- October 2007
- September 2007
- August 2007
- July 2007
- June 2007
- May 2007
- April 2007
- March 2007
- February 2007
- January 2007
- December 2006
- November 2006
- October 2006
- September 2006
- August 2006
- July 2006
- June 2006
- May 2006
- April 2006
- March 2006
Vital Trivia
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.




GAIA Host Collective
Euan, thanks.
I have (for some time) been playing a little around with GDP numbers from IMF and energy data (mostly from BP Statistical Review 2008).
By adjusting the GDP (PPP) with estimates on energy costs (which are embedded in the GDP data) the adjusted growth becomes less than with the unadjusted GDP data.
This should come as no surprise when energy prices grows faster than GDP.
Next step adjust for inflation (IMF data), and the underlying GDP growth becomes anemic.
Looking at USA ( I have not done anything on UK, yet) the GDP adjusted for energy costs shows a surprisingly low GDP growth and some of this growth may have come from financial stimulus (or economical steroids if you like). USA GDP growth slowed down after the bust of the dot com bubble, but started to regrow as of 2003 (which suggests an effect from FED lowering interest rates as a response to the dot com bubble bust). FED then increased the interest rate and growth slowed down and assuming a time lag from changes in the interest effects in USA GDP again started to slow down late 2006 and during 2007 (by which time the effect from increased energy prices starts to erode GDP adjusted for energy prices) the FED started to lower interest rates.
The other thing is the increase in food prices which is a little harder to make estimates on, but the combined effects on GDP adjusted for growing energy and food prices should expectantly show a more realistic picture of the real growth in the economy.
Some of the energy consumption may have been pure waste as a response to too low prices.
Looking at Rembrandt’s excellent diagrams, you will see that China’s oil consumption recently has been falling off a cliff.
Euan you wrote;
”- unless we work out a way of generating lots of low energy content GDP.”
I consider energy usage as a GDP multiplier or “physical steroids” for the economy.
The other potent (and non-physical) steroid for the economy seems to be interest rates.
Note that it appears that global crude oil consumption only fell one year in the Thirties, in 1930, with rising consumption thereafter, and as Downsouth observed there were three million more cars on the road in the US in 1937, versus 1929. Today, hundreds of millions of people worldwide want to drive a car for the first time. Also, after hitting a low in 1931, oil prices rose from 1931 to 1937.
Monthly constant dollar prices in the Thirties:
http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/oil-shock-of-1930s.html
In regard to net oil exports, note that the US went from finding its largest Lower 48 field, the East Texas Field, in 1930 and from being a leading net oil exporter, especially during the Second World War, to net oil importer status in only 18 years (in 1948).
This argument hold no water with me. If hundreds of millions of people want to take a trip to the moon does that mean its going to happen? Should I invest in rocket fuel? The fact is when those people do want vehicles they mostly likely choose a new urbanism community that doenst require a car, those that can afford cars will purchase plug in EV's. This "hundreds of millions of people" want to drive cars is a strawman.
This website has annual passenger cars, commercial vehicles and total vehicle production by year, through 2007:
http://oica.net/category/production-statistics/2007-statistics/
It appears that total vehicle production increased from 58.4 million in 2000 to 73.2 million in 2007. Of course, in order to know the net increase in vehicles, we would need to know how many vehicles were scrapped.
In any case, for the sake of argument, if we assume 70 million vehicle sales per year, the 10 year cumulative gross increase in vehicle production would be 700 million vehicles.
The 10 year cumulative gross increase in vehicle production, ending in 2007, was about 615 million.
Again you make the huge assumption that these 700 million vehicles will be built, further you make the assumption that they will run on gasoline. Lot's of assumptions, just sayin'
Actually, I'm not assuming that they will be built, especially since our middle case is that the top five net oil exporters will have shipped about half of their post-2005 cumulative net oil exports by the end of 2012, but the automotive supertanker is going to take some time to slow down. At 70 million vehicles per year, we would be over 200 million cumulative new vehicles in only three years. And I wonder what percentage of them would be powered by petroleum products?
Then why have car sales in China boomed?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aDCOM2mACDYY&refer=home
Also, a car is not "going to the moon" technology. It is something we understand how to do extremely well, and have mass production capabilities in.
Cars sold in China are more than likely the families "first car," so they are new users of oil, unlike in the US where a new car is more than likely a replacement of an older car.
As long as the car fleet is growing at all, the consumption of oil will grow.
Besides, the other major user of fossil fuels, food production, is more stable in its oil consumption growth.
The fact is when those people do want vehicles they mostly likely choose a new urbanism community that doenst require a car, those that can afford cars will purchase plug in EV's"
--Why would they do that when they can buy an old beater for a thousand bucks and gas is $1.50 a gallon? People will buy whatever is economical for them to buy. As a side note, how many EVs can our current infrastructure support? Every summer the grid here in the US groans and strains under the weight of the existing electric loads. How is this currently practicable to any meaningful degree? I am not even in the third world,I am an American who runs a small business that often involves driving and/or hauling w/ my car. There is no EV even remotely on the horizon that would suit my needs. If I were to buy a new card I would buy a Fit.
"The fact is when those people do want vehicles they mostly likely choose a new urbanism community that doenst require a car"
--yeah assuming they are Yuppies!
Yes people always and for all times buy according to only one factor--price--and always with full information and pure rationality---not.
Just because this is the world depicted in your ideological propaganda...er...intro economics textbook doesn't mean that it has any glimmering relationship to most people's reality.
The explosive growth in organic produce, farmers markets, hybrids...are not primarily driven by price-only thinking by any stretch of the imagination.
EV's have been discussed at length elsewhere, but just for your information and for those who haven't caught those earlier conversations--a significant portion of the current car fleet could be replaced by electric vehicles without the need to build one more power plant. The two main reasons are: 1) They are charged mostly at night when there is large excess capacity, and 2) They are some five times more efficient than even the optimistic efficiency ratings of hybrids, which are some five times more efficient than the average SUV.
And this without any improvement in the grid or supplying available "smart technologies" that charge when energy is available and can draw down a bit of energy from the batteries if the grid needs it. With these simple developments, a large fleet of EVs could greatly stabilize the grid and allow much higher use of intermittent renewable generations such as wind and solar.
Because there may not be an EV on the market right now that fits your particular needs does not mean that millions of people couldn't either get by without a car or use an EV for almost all of their motoring needs. It's not all about you.
Hi Rune
Like you I've spent a bit of time looking at oil consumption in terms of gdp and the link between the two. I think I had it at about 0.4% change in oil consumption = 1% change in gdp for a period 1985-2003 when oil prices were relatively stable. I would be interested in looking at any data summaries or graphs you have compiled - any chance you can link or post these please?
One thing you will have to take into account, especially if comparing the US to Europe, is the continuing higher population growth of the former. If you look at real growth in gdp/capita for the US it's even more anaemic than just adjusting for energy costs!
TW
Hello Watcher,
So far I have covered only a few countries and there seems to be some differences of how oil impacts the GDP between the countries. In a preliminary phase, it seemed to me like a 1 % increase in oil consumption translated into a 2 % increase in GDP (which is fairly in agreement with your observations/results).
Some preliminary observations is that growth in GDP and total energy consumption seems to drive growth in oil consumption (after all the economies (GDP) produces a lot of vehicles to consume oil from other energy sources like nat gas, coal, nuclear, hydro, wind etc.). How would GDP look like if it was not tuned into consume oil?
Presently my spreadsheets looks like something which could be a welcomed challenge for the world’s most foremost Egyptologists as my spreadsheets are covered with a lot of preliminary diagrams, notes in both English and Norwegian and other supportive calculations.
I plan to make this into several posts (it is a rather complex and extensive subject) and as you point out it is important to make adjustments for changes in the population with time. Specific GDP and oil consumption should help filter out some of the differences.
I also try to understand how the recent increase in debt/credit has (rather) more (than) less acted as steroids for the GDP.
I am aware that this is not necessarily a universal way to find these relations, but hopefully there is the possibility of a better understanding of the relations between energy and GDP.
Hi the Watcher and Rune you have to be very careful with how you do this.
The problem is you can borrow money over a wide range of time periods from days or less to generally up to 30 years.
By refinancing loans this can be extended out reasonably to 50 years or more.
GDP and oil consumption are measured per annum but the balance of debt can extend well past the nominal GDP created.
For example buying a new house adds significantly to the GDP in the year the house was built with lots of materials and workers
involved but the debt load is generally paid over a thirty year period. If you pay cash you don't have to discount indeed past GDP
was arguably lower since you where storing wealth to spend in the present. With debt its tough to say what the real growth rate was.
But one can argue that as long as debt levels are increasing real growth i.e a growth in wealth is not taking place. Your borrowing
from the future for today.
Repeated injections of ever more debt can cause energy usage and nominal GDP to increase but its not clear how much real wealth has been created vs debt.
A very easy metric is the precentage of total homes vs those that are paid off for example. If the precentage of homes with no mortgage remains constant or grows as housing units are added then we have created wealth since we are paying off debt as fast as we are creating new debt. This is wealth thats been captured i.e its not debt its a cash equivalent.
This is a good paper.
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1000&context=pen...
You can look at other forms of debt but housing mortgages are such a large part you really don't need to look at more then them to get a rough idea of whats happening.
Its actually interesting that oil prices have remained so low for so long all things considered.
Oil or energy in general seems to be a non factor with debt induced increases in consumption overwhelming oil availability.
Sure consumption increased but debt loads increased a lot faster than oil demand increased and GDP decreased much slower.
The debt bubble is arguably much larger than changes in either energy consumption or real GDP.
Only when we get into the last few years do real economic concepts reassert themselves as the debt frenzy finally ends.
In the paper I linked mortgage debt went from 10% of GDP in 1950 to 70% of GDP in 2004. This debt load dwarfs all other factors
and distorts the economic picture dramatically.
The debt economy is like 10 times larger than the real economy which uses oil.
Even as oil prices remained low and consumption increased in line with nominal GDP and population you have this monster of a debt bubble per barrel growing. Every "cheap" barrel is effectively bought with more and more debt.
I dunno but the relationship between energy and debt is perplexing my opinion is maybe there simply is no relationship as long as energy suspplies are in marginal excess. I.e as long as the real economy has enough resources this monstrous secondary debt economy is able to grow untouched only periodically do the two interact.
I dunno but once you throw in debt then resources just seem to have been significantly undervalued for a long time.
In a sense its like a bar extending credit to its customers in the end it may find out its lost a tremendous amount of real money.
Memmel,
Thanks for sharing and the link.
I increasingly get confirmed that these waters needs careful treading, as one is surrounded with slippery stones.
From what I saw from the linked document (from briefly browsing it) was that US total mortgage relative to GDP has been growing with time. The problem here (as I see it) is to differentiate between how much went into creating new “real” wealth and how much was used for increased consumption or pay off higher energy bills by home owners using their houses/homes as an ATM.
From my standpoint I see no good way to filter out what parts of the mortgage growth went to create new “real” wealth and what went to consumption.
In many ways using official data on GDP (which may be distorted) may at all not be good. Perhaps look for some other alternatives.
A debt is a claim on future resource consumption (as I understand it) and/or work effort and what we here on TOD increasingly discusses is that the future will come with resource constraints or lots of claims on the same resources, this suggests that prices has only one way to go, but still there will be someone who at the end of the day will not be able to get his hands on the needed resources and therefore ends up going bankrupt. (Is this the message you are trying to convey, and I think you are right about it.)
Then there is the mystery of the “low” price on energy. Could this more or less have become an illusion resulting from several decades with too low energy prices?
Somewhere else I compared energy to steroids for the economy. Energy has greatly enhanced man’s ability to produce (or draw down resources), less future energy should translate into less ability to produce and thus pay off debts.
There is something here I am trying to get better grips on, and I appreciate you taking your time and sharing.
Well first lets consider low energy prices.
I posted this concept in other threads I'll recap it here.
First and foremost we don't have a freemarket economy its a command economy just like the Soviet Union just because you don't always see the man behind the current does not mean he is not there. There is absolutely no way the energy industry could predict correctly out into the future what the economic growth rate would be and they need to make plans decades in advance five year at the minimum for a big project.
But if you read all significant fields are at least ten to fifteen years in bring online. This means the growth rate of oil supplies can't respond well to the economy. But in a planned economy no problem you can grow the economy with oil availability being one of the major factors in determining the growth rate. Thus what probably has really happened is the economy was allowed until recently to grow at such a rate to ensure that it did not outpace oil supplies.
The relationship between GDP and oil usage was planned its no accident. Next increasing debt loads were used to drive growth.
Two big lies drove our economic ponzi scheme.
First the Fed and most central banks claimed they did not include volatile energy and food prices in their inflation number I think thats a complete lie they watched overall commodity prices like a hawk. Low raw material prices are critical to getting real growth as you expand the money supply if commodity prices start rising as you inflate then your stuck in a price spiral inflation does no good.
The second big lie was they booked rising housing values as real gains in wealth despite the fact these values were increasingly backed by mortgages with less and less real equity the where treated as real gains. Thus rising housing and land prices and real estate prices in general where never treated is capable of long term decline even though they were really debt. Basically continued financial innovation we accepted as real wealth not a game.
So my guess is that what happened was inflation pressure simply went into housing for decades and not really into commodities and thence into wages (If you can't eat on a given wage you will fight for higher wages). By controlling the growth rate they ensured demand increases where inline with commodity prices.
This game unraveled over time. Relentless inflation in property values is simply unsustainable eventually it went insane. Madoff shows that ponzi schemes can be played for a long time before they unravel but eventually they become unglued. And thats all that was going on as long as inflation resulted in overall increasing home values then the game could continue in the end of course it was insanity.
As it became insane and as commodity supply could not be expanded we got stuck in the situation that we had to continue to pump growth or the whole scheme would come crashing down. The debt bubble took on a life of its own and could no longer be contained at any level.
Overall what we where doing is really placing ever more leverage on future earnings because thats all debt is.
For the US at least we have had no real growth since we peaked in internal oil production. This does not mean that additional real wealth
was not created but per capita we have been in decline for some time.
Now as far as economics goes what can you say it was a game or farce since the 1980's and probably the 1970's. I'd argue the only real growth took place after WWII as most of the rest of the world was reduced to rubble. A lot of that was cold war generated wealth flowing into the military industrial complex not even true manufacturing. But 1950-1960 could easily be picked out as a sort of golden time.
Later in the 1960's deficit spending for Vietnam and the cold war was already causing the economy to become unreal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt
You can see the public debt increasing as we deficit spent during the Vietnam war and cold war.
I don't buy into a lot of the GDP growth starting from say 1965 America was cooking the books seriously this early on.
Eventually we had to drop the gold standard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretton_Woods_system
The US left the gold standard in 1971 but the books if you will where already fully cooked well before 1971 they had messed with the system to the point it collapsed in 1971. I personally don't buy into a lot of the published economic info from 1965-1971 I think its
fudged to say the least lots of hidden stuff in the government budget.
Now whats interesting is that the short period of time that maps to a period when the economy was fairly uncontrolled i.e as close to a free market as we have had since WWII maps onto a time when oil production was naturally growing rapidly globally.
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_Rate/Historical_Oil_Prices_...
Oil prices indicate stability from 1948-1965.
Obviously I don't buy into government inflation numbers from 1965-1972 and indeed the gold standard was busted by 1971.
The US economy 1965-1971 was the first post WWII big lie.
Not sure this graph comes through but you can see my interest in 1965.
http://www.measuringworth.org/datasets/usgdp/graph.php
That website is fantastic btw !
I tried to find a smoking gun that was easy to show I can't find something thats obvious.
It may well be hidden in the movement of gold during this time period and some things France did.
My point is that the game has been on for a long time fairly obvious if you look since 1965.
Be careful about the conclusions you draw from a ponzi scheme.
Now of course this whole thing is breaking down so don't expect the future to match the past forty years
and don't expect it to match any past recession in the last 40 years in fact its not clear we have any one period in
the past that can be used as a reliable model for our future.
One thing you can be certain is that inflation, commodity prices and real estate prices are no longer coupled.
They have almost certainly become decoupled. Right now the last vestiges of coupling result in briefly lower
oil prices but both our fiat currencies and ever rising real estate prices are dead.
One would expect that oil prices will eventually seek a real value i.e they will begin to heavily discount
the future value of the fiat currencies. I'm suggesting that commodities will increasingly be sold for money
thats converted to something else fairly quickly. Right US treasuries but maybe gold who knows.
A flight to gold by commodities sellers makes a lot of sense and could happen. Right now US Treasuries
are sensible. But going forward I'd suggest that wealth increasingly held buy countries the US is indebted to will
seek out non-dollar based stores of value of some sort.
But who knows the whole game has changed in other posts I've suggested that we will also see a crisis with the GBP
and that it will be saved but result in the sacrifice of another tradable currency with the Australian dollar a top
unintended casualty. Maybe the Japanese Yen collapses ?
Regardless oil will probably decouple from fiat currencies and may as I said track gold or it could track something else.
No way to tell whats going to happen the past was a lie and the future is unknown.
However the chances of low dollar denominated oil prices remaining for long are slim.