111 comments on Implications of the Ayres Warr Model of Economic Production: An Introduction
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111 comments on Implications of the Ayres Warr Model of Economic Production: An Introduction
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Ian,
Your point 3) "Energy efficiency does not limit production of fossil fuels; it raises prices stimulating production. Therefore many policies people are encouraging to limit global emissions will in fact raise global emissions."
Could be re-stated to take account of renewable energy as:
Energy efficiency does not limit production of energy; it raises prices stimulating the production of alternative non-FF sources. Therefore many policies people are encouraging to limit energy use will raise the proportion of renewable energy( and possibly lower FF use, but not necessarily).
What do you think?
I think you are absolutely right. I think we should be preparing for a future without fossil fuels, and efficiency should stimulate production of renewable energy.
Necessarily not, in certain circumstances. It depends on the rate of decline of exergy availability and on the rate of exergy payback of the alternative exergy sources.
When the availability of exergy is declining, it would be a brave or tyrannical government that would deprive the rest of its economy of large amounts of it to make investments that will break even in exergy terms only after years.
David, exactly. Given the large amount of upfront energy needed for an investment in wind and solar that would come anywhere near the energy we now consume, it is hard to imagine anything other than a tyrannical government as being able to appropriate that energy. If we were going to replace fossil fuels with alternatives it needed to happen when we had excess. It is not just the energy for the solar panels and windmills but also for the infrastructure to fix the grid and "tank" up electric vehicles. Even investing in more public transport will be a hard sell but I think that would be far more doable than a Manhattan project on solar panels and windmills.
oxidated,
Wind energy returns energy invested in months not years, allowing all energy for 50% growth in new wind to be derived from just those turbines installed 6 months ago. It's happening now, before we have the electric vehicles. Funding in the US budget for grid upgrades.
Both of you are making hidden assumptions.
For the author:
That unstated assumption is necessary for your conclusion, but is known to be false. The simplest example is one of the biggest: personal cars. For most of the industrialized world, fuel costs are only a small part of the cost of an incremental mile driven, with the cost in time usually being the dominant factor and vehicle wear often being the dominant economic factor. If vehicle efficiency doubled, Westerners would not suddenly want to drive twice as many miles.
Fundamentally, it's a mistake to ignore human behaviour when you're trying to model human behaviour.
Neil's response is much better this way, but is still making assumptions:
As with Ian, these assumptions are necessary to your conclusion. These assumptions are much more reasonable - witness the massive surge in interest in renewable energy during the recent FF price rises - although still somewhat questionable (i.e., if the only change is an increase in efficiency, then the relative prices of a kWh of renewable and non-renewable energy will stay the same, which doesn't provide much reason to change their mix).
A much stronger impetus to change the energy mix is likely to come from external factors such as FF scarcity and internal factors such as carbon taxes, as both of these will tend to raise the price of FF energy much more than renewable energy. I expect both of these to have a large effect in the next 50 years.
A second likely factor is changing energy vectors. Electrified rail, for example, is not only 3x more efficient than diesel rail, it's also much more flexible, as it can accept fuel from many sources. A fuel switch from diesel to electricity, then, not only offers the potential for emissions reductions from increased efficiency (as it's improbable that goods transportation would triple due to lower fuel requirements), but also based on fuel type, as the electricity could be derived from lower-emission sources.
I disagree completely. Statement 3) requires no more than the following assumptions:
And this is better how?
Assumption #3 is known to be wrong; the 90s proved that. Assumption #1 is another way of saying "the future is like the past" and "my model of the past is not too wrong". Assumption #2 is in fact many unseen assumptions; based on the two we've seen, these are unlikely to be fully sound. Accordingly, it is unreasonable to expect to derive strong conclusions from so many questionable and partially-valid assumptions.
Most Westerners would not drive twice as many miles if their cars became twice as fuel-efficient; ergo, it is an invalid conclusion to say that efficiency improvements will lead to increased consumption. If your model says otherwise, your model is wrong.
You're trying to push your model far outside of where it's valid. Fundamentally, it's a mistake to ignore human behaviour when you're trying to model human behaviour, and that's what you're doing.
The 90's did not disprove assumption #3. The 90's proved that oil production is a function of several variables. I guess I should have been more precise. When I say oil production is a monotone function of price, I mean that the partial derivative of oil production with respect to price is positive. It is possible to have increasing price and decreasing production, as well as decreasing price and increasing production. See the oil production model I proposed in my paper for an idea of the kind of function I mean.
In any case, I am not looking for a model that will accurately predict the future, I am looking for a model that will give me an idea of how the variables in the model will effect the future. I think the model is robust enough for that purpose.
Not necessarily so. You are also making assumptions, namely that any efficiency improvements in one sector affect that sector only. Energy saved through greater efficiency in transport may be offset by increased consumption of say, manufactured goods. For example, if your car is twice as efficient you may not necessarily drive twice as far but you might use the money you save to purchase another television.
As far as I understand it, the model is designed to look at the economy as a whole, not isolated sectors. You cannot use your example of vehicle miles driven to falsify the model because that's not what it's designed to model. It's 'outside where it's valid'.