"The more complicated a system, especially one involving automation, optimization, and human oversight, the more likely it is to fail"
I challenge this axiom because I took a number of ecology and biology courses in university and was taught that the more complex an ecosystem is, the more stable it is. Monocultures (ex. crop fields) and degraded ecosystems are unstable and subject to collapse such as diseases or pests.
I am not an expert on Wall Street economics but it appears that the Panic of 2008 occurred because the monetary system was simplified and degraded from thousands of banks and several important currencies. There were a half-dozen big banks that failed, not thousands of smaller ones, there is only one world currency (US$), and there was too much concentration of risk (ex. AIG underwrote a massive number of derivatives). Likewise, Peak Oil came about because the energy system of the world was and still is, very close to a monoculture.
The problem is not that our economic system is too complex but that it is too simplified, with too much reliance on oil and the US$.
I suspect you are conflating complexity with diversity. The more heterogeneous a system the better off it is - this is different than human complexity. (e.g. Tainter, Homer-Dixon, etc.)
I'm glad that DalefromCalgary raised the questions that he did, because certain aspects of the terminology used in this general discussion trouble me a bit.
Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics, but if a system is diverse and heterogenous, does that not usually imply that it is more complex than a uniform homogeneous system, all other things being equal? If so, and if heterogeneous systems fair better than homogeneous systems, would that not also imply that a certain type of complexity can be a good thing?
I also suspect that some of us may be conflating the concepts of complexity and chaotic. As you know, there are many complex systems that are highly stable, and there are many simple systems that are highly chaotic in behavior.
An example of the former would be one of these elaborate 18th-century clocks with a dozen functions, a system that is incredibly complex mechanically yet can keep running in the same manner for several centuries if properly maintained. An example of the latter would be one of those novelty toys consisting of an iron pendulum swinging between several fixed magnets. While it is extremely simple in terms of complexity, its behavior is highly chaotic.
So, I think it a mistake to automatically assume that just because a system is complex that it is more prone to failure than a system that is simple. How prone a system is to failure depends on many thing and degree of complexity is but one of them.
Complexity can also be in the eye of the beholder, as well as the criteria used to determine complexity. In the above examples, the elaborate clock in a certain sense may be considered simple because it has few degrees of freedom in which things can go wrong, while the pendulum toy might be considered complex because there are multiple degrees of freedom in which it can move.
Getting back to your central question: if the tipping point that causes a catastrophic failure is generally impossible to predict, then having knowledge of the behavior of such systems would seem to have little usefulness in preventing said failure. In other words, we would be largely guessing and perhaps just as likely to attempt to fix the wrong thing as the right one.
I think that the condition to fear is over optimization and complexity doesn't make a system more or less stable. If redundancy is in place very, very complex systems can be robust.
So I guess over optimized systems with no redundancy is the danger.
Besides diversity and complexity there is another factor that explains quite a bit -- that of dispersion. Dispersion is the spreading out of rates over time such that gaps between human-valued metrics grow. It is related to entropy but it differs because one can actually try to model the details of the process. Example, we can consider the various human cultures in the world diverse, but due to technology the dispersive trends are quite high and the high-tech cultures will strip the resources faster than the low-tech cultures. Dispersion trumps diversity in this case and there is nothing at all very complex about it.
But of course I belong to category #1 or #2 in people following collapse dynamics so am apparently only along for the ride. So you can safely ignore anything I have to say.
Why is she doing this? Hasn't she seen Annie Hall yet?
Doctor in Brooklyn: Why are you depressed, Alvy?
Alvy's Mom: Tell Dr. Flicker.
[Young Alvy sits, his head down - his mother answers for him]
Alvy's Mom: It's something he read.
Doctor in Brooklyn: Something he read, huh?
Alvy at 9: [his head still down] The universe is expanding.
Doctor in Brooklyn: The universe is expanding?
Alvy at 9: Well, the universe is everything, and if it's expanding, someday it will break apart and that would be the end of everything!
Alvy's Mom: What is that your business?
[she turns back to the doctor]
Alvy's Mom: He stopped doing his homework!
Alvy at 9: What's the point?
Excessive navel-gazing leads to these kinds of responses. I likely don't treat meta-posts with enough rhetorical glee as I can't get past the ambiguity inherent in the statement of the problem. "Why are we here?" Guilty as charged.
Actually, some scientists got together and went to the edge of the world and held one of their colleagues by the heels so he could look over the edge. "what did you see?" His colleagues asked him. "I saw six large elephants standing on the back of a giant tortoise, and off in the distance there was another giant tortoise with six large elephants on top of it coming toward us.
The scientists put their heads together and decided that the tortoises were coming toward each other for the purpose of mating. This has come to be known as the big bang theory:-)
The word "complexity" confuses more than it enlightens.
Consider the following two examples of "complexity". Each example is a means of getting a 200 ohm resistance to supply that LED that keeps the world awake.
Example one uses 200 one-ohm resistors wired in series.
Example two uses 1000 200k-ohm resistors wired in parallel.
They're both needlessly complex but the implications for fragility are exactly opposite to one another.
Arguably the grand corporate system has the series-sort of complexity, making it more fragile rather than less. Whereas biodiversity is of the parallel-circuit variety.
They're both needlessly complex but the implications for fragility are exactly opposite to one another.
This is incorrect - you are assuming that the failure mode of an open circuit is more likely than the failure mode of a short circuit. If both modes have equal probabilities, then the two circuits have an identical likelihood of failure.
Twilight, you are in abstract principle correct, but I suspect you are not much of a practical person. In practice resistors usually burn out to become non-conductors rather than conductors. And the general rule is that a functional unit of some sort of other becomes a "break" in the process rather than the opposite. For instance failure of any part of a transport network or a production process. So my fragile ego is preserved undiminished which is ultimately what really matters.
Funny, I'm an electrical engineer with 23 years experience in circuit design for harsh electrical utility environments. Yes, open circuits are common, and so are short circuits due to other causes, but you missed my point.
You were using the circuit as illustration of two complex systems with very different vulnerabilities. In fact both circuits are equally vulnerable to a single failure of a resistor, it just depends on the relative likelihood of each type of failure (which can change in real life). And regardless of how you arrange the resistors, you can still fail due to an open elsewhere in the loop for example.
I'm less interested in levels of complexity than I am the tradeoff between efficiency and resiliency, as described by Greer (I will try to find the link). Systems that are highly optimized to improve one specific variable are very vulnerable, when compared to systems that are less optimized but more general.
Twilight--I agree the analogy with a resistor array was less than perfect. I was just trying to make the point briefly which is exactly made (but more tediously) in terms of comparing (1) a journey (or process) of one leg for which three alterative vehicles are available (enhanced resilience) with (2) a journey of three legs with only one vehicle available for each leg (hence reduced resilience). Maybe you're too much an electrical and not enough of a travelling engineer!
A mechanical watch is complex, but most of that complexity outside of the watch: i.e. the knowledge needed to produce a watch - it's not just counting teeth on gears, there's friction to deal with, shocks, temperature and gravity impact on the movements of the balance spring, and so on. A reasonable mechanical watch can run -20/+40 seconds a day.
Building watches requires highly specialized workers, high precision turning and milling tools, and a clientele able to pay for the work and the materials.
Watches may be relatively sturdy, the system of resources, work and education that is needed to produce such watches is much more fragile.
Today, it has become hard to find a decent mechanical watch that costs less than a month's salary.
A natural and functional ecosystem is also very complex, and composed of complex subsystems. The thing is this, in nature every subsystem has to coexist with local conditions. Also, ecosystems have high redundancy (highly diverse populations - insects, birds, mammals - can feed of the fruits of a tree, but it still manages to reproduce)
Our economic and social systems, however, are as 'efficient' as we can make them, and we are not satisfied with local inputs only. So we criss-crossed the world with trade routes, and pumped billions of barrels of oil into building our very affluent and increasingly indirectly connected lives. And all of this enterprise is based on more or less sparsely localized and finite resources. It is a cinch, that collapse is imminent for most of civilization.
Moreover, we have built our cultures on fiction. There is a lot of good stuff in there: the bible, the koran, Adam Smith, Karl Marx, all contain precious nuggets of knowledge and wisdom, but they are not science. They are incomplete and sometimes clumsy attempts at describing the human condition. Stories we invent about ourselves.
And then we started to really believe in the ultimate goodness of growth. In forty years of perusal of the press, I cannot remember a single issue of a newspaper that did not cheer or worry about growth, somewhere in its pages.
We just don't get it. If growth doesn't stop, the bottle explodes.
The flaw in the human system is, that it does not stop growing, even as outlying areas are being sucked of life. And the human system is imposing uniformity, reducing diversity.
So yeah, things can only get worse.
Personally, I have to admit that being conscious of this stuff doesn't change my life very much. I pay my debts, slowly, which fills me with misgivings, as I can see deflation looming. I go to work, and have a beer afterward. I tell scare stories to anybody who cares to listen. I sort my garbage, but my food comes from chain stores.
From where I live in town, it takes more than an hour to walk to the nearest field.
I use public transport and a bicycle, have no car. I have two adolescent kids who I try to warn about the coming dearth of everything. They spend a lot of time in front of screens, manipulating buttons. As do I.
Apart from trying to build a little stash of food, I have no idea of what I will do wtshtf. I would like to own a plot of land, but in a densely populated country, land is at a premium, and I have to get out of debt first.
I feel about as powerless as my neighbors, most of whom don't have a clue of what is hanging over their heads.
I'm looking to find a decent mechanical watch. If I muddle through, I would like to have a memento of our technical prowess to bequeathe to whomever is left.
I don't know if you want a swiss watch but if price is a factor.............. I picked up a couple of cheap mechanical self-winding Seikos (one for me and one for my 10 year old son). If TSHTF then watch batteries aren't going to be around long.
I agree.
But a mechanical watch is a nice example of technology that can easily be reverse-engineered. Anyone can count the gears, figure out how they are connected, and see that force comes from the mainspring and regulation from the balance spring.
A watch is a lesson in physics and mathematics, a library of knowledge ready for reading.
Quartz movements are very precise, and rotor plus quartz movements do not require batteries, presenting major advantages for using the timepiece as a -perpetual- counter of time. But quartz movements are quite incomprehensible pieces of technology, especially if they lack power.
From the standpoint of a 19th century white and civilized explorer: When the primitives first see a watch, it may look like magic, but it's workings are easily explained, and any smart kid could attempt to construct a similar timepiece, materials provided.
But how the f-expletive deleted- do you find out that quartz oscillates at 30 something thousand oscillations per minute when under a current, when no current is available, or for that matter, measurable?
Gears you can count using only eyes and fingers.
I agree with Joule.The lacking definition is "complexity". For us, it is complex a system that we do not easily understand. Another definition is "chaotic", that fractal mathematics describes as a behavior that we do not easily understand or that is largely disturbed by unknown variables...
In a strict sense all systems are complex and chaotic, but we are adept of over-simplifying things to get a proper mathematical description. Take a basic example of dropping a weight from 1 meter height, simple physics, isn't it? We can reduce the formulas to Fg=m.g.h, f=m.a, and calculate the uniform acceleration movement to get the time of flight. Obviously we will get it wrong, and no measurement will result in the calculated value, because we did not take into account the air resistance,derived from the shape of the object, that depends of the orientations it takes in flight, and so on...
The worst example possible is drop a sheet of paper, we cannot even know the position on the ground it will end up in! It depends on to many factors, the way it is dropped, the winds, the dynamic deformations of the surface, etc... So, if we cannot get these simplest thing right, how can we expect to understand the behavior of huge systems like our own biosphere?
There is no simplicity, except the one we made up in an abstract and imaginary world, that discards variables that "appear" to have little influence. But some times we discover that the "little influence" is not so insignificant after all.
What we are missing is the humility to understand our ignorance...
Nothing wrong with complexity in itself - as pointed out, stable ecosystems are normally complex and diverse. But in the case of human society, increased complexity has gone hand in hand with growing population and burden on resources, at the expense of the complexity/diversity of global and local ecosystems of which we are part.
Exactly right, accelerating growth on top of dispersion is what gives rise to the Logistic function leading to the characteristic Hubbert bell-shaped curve. If it wasn't for the accelerating term, the dispersion effects combined with proportional draw-down would flatten out the production curve over a much longer time period. We probably wouldn't even discern a distinct peak.
What would have happened if we had good analytical methods such as dispersive discovery and the shock model long ago? These do not involve difficult math and the use of computers is not necessary. I assert that careful watchers of the evolution of resource depletion could have fit the models to the empirical data early on and applied a kind of continual Bayesian update to monitor the situation. All the warning signs would have been clear much earlier. The heuristics of Hubbert were simply one man's intuition into what was to come. However the heuristics had no fundamental basis and as more data arrived, the adjustments necessary to update the heuristics had no justification and critics pointed out (arguably correctly) that early Hubbert followers were "shooting in the dark" about projections.
People question whether this is all water under the bridge given our current situation, yet I say another vital resource may come along that we can monitor more carefully.
I believe that as long as the possibility to extract profit exists, there will be little attempt to mediate use for the advantage of the commons. Likely the ability to accurately model the resource will only lead to the more efficient extraction of the resource in order to maximize profit.
I believe it is highly unlikely that overusing and polluting industries are unaware of the effects of their business. I believe that they operate along a curve which models "how much can we get away with and still make a buck?" Kind of like wall street these days - socialization of loss and privatization of gains.
I've tried to draw parallels between Tainter's notion of complexity with the world of biology and believe his diminishing returns on complexity theories need refinement. Living organisms are complex, extinctions of species can be more attributed to becoming too specialized rather than too complex. Genetic algorithms can design circuits that are complex that are as resilient as simpler circuits. I'm more of a mind that if a system breaks it is more because it is lacking in some fundamental way rather than its complexity.
I'll be looking forward to your guest post refuting The Collapse of Complex Societies any day now. By all means, please publish your ideas on "refinement" of Tainter's theory. The only one I'm aware of so far has been Greer, and that's readable online.
My layman's understanding is that something like a person is very self-dissimilar - at each layer there is a completely different set of properties:
Atoms - described by physics
Molecules - described by genes and the chemical pathways (autocatalytic sets) of the various reactions
Cells and organs - described by engineering functions
Spirit and personality - computational science, psychology etc
I have not really thought about the financial world's complexity, but I guess that it also has a number of different levels, which makes it inherently complicated, so is inherently at risk of collapse.
Possible dissimilar levels would be:
Credit source
Market making
Analysis and strategy propagation
Stock aggregation (e.g. funds)
Derivative
Derivative squared
This gives us a problem becuase a person and a financial system are both "complex", but we don't expect a random collapses of a person, but we do expect financial markets to collapse. The missing part of the equation is criticality - being on the threshold of collapse. If you look at the work on sandpiles, criticality is a necessary condition for collapse, and the size of the collapse is determined buy how many areas at criticality are linked.
In the recent collapse of the financial markets, it is clear that a large number of different areas were at criticality, so a collapse in one area triggered a widespread collapse.
I have used these ideas at work to create a more robust organisation but reducing the criticality of the system. One of the problems accountants cause (speaking as an accountant) is that we like to drive optimisation, and optimising a system is very similar to driving it towards criticality. If you understand this you can engineer systems to be efficient without reaching criticality.
Jeremy
PS a great book on complexity is "At Home in the Universe" by Stuart Kauffman
The following is not aimed specifically at you, but is just a continuing thought process by me.
Consider my posting series: "She comes down from Yellow Mountain.."
Your Quote [well-stated,BTW]:
---------------
"If you look at the work on sandpiles, criticality is a necessary condition for collapse, and the size of the collapse is determined buy how many areas at criticality are linked.
In the recent collapse of the financial markets, it is clear that a large number of different areas were at criticality, so a collapse in one area triggered a widespread collapse."
----------------
I would suggest the recent and rapid Twenty-Fold increase in [S]ulfur contributed significantly, along with FF price increases, as the tight coupling between the two affected "how many areas at criticality are linked."
S is vital to [P]hosphorus beneficiation [I-NPK] for food, plus essential to jumpstarting nearly all industrial processes: from manufacturing simple, 'strike-anywhere' matches, to other mineral extraction to make the gamut of hi-tech devices from cellphones to computers, to making JDAM explosives to nuclear ICBMs.
If one considers what us 'Humanimals' pursue to be our "Societal Prey", it is Foundationally Asimov's Bio-Elemental List of P is #1, S is #2,... an so on. Even at the highest level this pursuit continues: the example of engineering nanophosphate superbatteries by initial S-application.
++++++++
EDIT: replaced incorrect link with correct link here. http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5491/510970
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How are we any different than these hyenas comfortably going after the easiest and highest ERoEI first?
A pack of hyenas eat a wildebeest alive, guts first. The young animal is alive for five minutes while the hyenas chew through its stomach. Filmed in the Maasai Mara in Kenya by Clare.
-----------------
Same with humans, IMO: it is easier to buy calf's liver or chicken livers at the grocery store than to procure your own; ie, we simply love and truly crave the low-fruit first. Recall that many restaurants serve high P & S eggs 24/7, then recall my recent link that S-pricing has decreased recently 25-fold...Please think about that above hyena video the next time you eat some bacon & eggs with orange juice. :)
Now try to imagine Earthmarines hugely successful in delaying the widespread application of S; to help force Optimal Overshoot Decline, so that it can be extended to future generations. If that is too hard to NON-BAU-grasp, then how about a more BAU-like, highly profitable Webb/Pomerene extended to recovered-S for the Porridge Principle of Metered Decline?
IMO, either method fits the Asimov's Foundations concept of Predictive Collapse and Directed Decline, but just varies in strength and speed and strategy, but your mileage may vary [YMMV].
Just a note [with full credit to TODer Paul_the_Engineer] that Zinc might be a future Liebig Minimum, too. Peak Everything sure seems to be hitting everything at once, that's for sure [but water shortages will be the absolute worse, IMO]:
As an aside, is anyone else frustrated that the only google results for the "Porridge Principle of Metered Decline" and "Asimov's Bio-Elemental List" point back to this site? I'm trying to pull together some real logic from this "contiuing thought process" and it's not easy.
I know that a google failure doesn't mean it can't exist somewhere, but the link you gave for the Asimov list in another post (http://www.backyardnature.net/phosphor.htm) doesn't mention a list, nor does it cite the source of the Asimov quote.
I don't want to start a flame war; I know Mr Shaw is a long-term member with high standing and a lot of respect here, but this isn't about Mr. Shaw, it's about the quality of this particular post.
Following the links for each, I can eventually trace the "Asimov's Bio-Elemental List" as perhaps a badly cited reference to an essay titled "Life's Bottleneck" from April 1959.
So not only is the primary source not properly cited, it's from a source by a scientific thinker (even fantasist) over fifty years ago. The only claim that stands up here is that phosphorous is needed to sustain life.
You haven't cited a source to justify your claim about a "Twenty-Fold increase in [S]ulfur", and you don't even say if you mean production, use or price. Later you say price decreased, does that imply more supply?
It may well be that the site is really all about a small closed community who all are supposed to know what an Earthmarines and what a Webb/Pomerene is, and why Directed Decline is different from directed decline. It may be that I'm supposed to spend a few hours researching all the "She comes down from Yellow Mountain..." previous posts in order to try and figure out Bob's point here, and if this is the case please tell me and I'll pull my head in.
On the other hand, if this post is supposed to communicate some sort of idea or concept to an intelligent educated reader, it fails to do so.
Sorry for the confusion, but I am a feeble techno-guru: I don't even know how to touch-type! I would love to link all my posts together, but I don't know how. Google USGS + sulfur to read about S-pricing back in 2007-2008. As stated before: I am hoping some TopTODers will flesh-out this topic more thoroughly.
"The more complicated a system, especially one involving automation, optimization, and human oversight, the more likely it is to fail"
I challenge this axiom because I took a number of ecology and biology courses in university and was taught that the more complex an ecosystem is, the more stable it is. Monocultures (ex. crop fields) and degraded ecosystems are unstable...
When you take undergrad level ecology or environmental science courses you hear certain truisms, such as the "complexity = stability" theme, repeated sufficiently often that you tend to believe them. Then you take graduate level ecology courses and come to the realization that there are so many exceptions to this "rule" that it lacks any relevancy. It's sort of like that "i before e except after c" truism: correct only about 60% of the time. The fact is that there's little correlation between ecosystem complexity and "stability" (however one chooses to define it), and that virtual monoculture palm communities in lowland Amazonia and littoral kelp communities are some of the most productive communities that exist. Complexity, per se, is no indicator of either stability or failure proneness.
Another quibble: "Anasazi" (a racist term) civilization didn't collapse due to climatic or environmental factors. The people we apply that term to came under increasing pressure from Na-Dene speaking invaders from the north and accordingly moved to more defensible locations or locations with more ready access to water.
"The more complicated a system, especially one involving automation, optimization, and human oversight, the more likely it is to fail"
I challenge this axiom because I took a number of ecology and biology courses in university and was taught that the more complex an ecosystem is, the more stable it is. Monocultures (ex. crop fields) and degraded ecosystems are unstable and subject to collapse such as diseases or pests.
I am not an expert on Wall Street economics but it appears that the Panic of 2008 occurred because the monetary system was simplified and degraded from thousands of banks and several important currencies. There were a half-dozen big banks that failed, not thousands of smaller ones, there is only one world currency (US$), and there was too much concentration of risk (ex. AIG underwrote a massive number of derivatives). Likewise, Peak Oil came about because the energy system of the world was and still is, very close to a monoculture.
The problem is not that our economic system is too complex but that it is too simplified, with too much reliance on oil and the US$.
I suspect you are conflating complexity with diversity. The more heterogeneous a system the better off it is - this is different than human complexity. (e.g. Tainter, Homer-Dixon, etc.)
Nate -
I'm glad that DalefromCalgary raised the questions that he did, because certain aspects of the terminology used in this general discussion trouble me a bit.
Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics, but if a system is diverse and heterogenous, does that not usually imply that it is more complex than a uniform homogeneous system, all other things being equal? If so, and if heterogeneous systems fair better than homogeneous systems, would that not also imply that a certain type of complexity can be a good thing?
I also suspect that some of us may be conflating the concepts of complexity and chaotic. As you know, there are many complex systems that are highly stable, and there are many simple systems that are highly chaotic in behavior.
An example of the former would be one of these elaborate 18th-century clocks with a dozen functions, a system that is incredibly complex mechanically yet can keep running in the same manner for several centuries if properly maintained. An example of the latter would be one of those novelty toys consisting of an iron pendulum swinging between several fixed magnets. While it is extremely simple in terms of complexity, its behavior is highly chaotic.
So, I think it a mistake to automatically assume that just because a system is complex that it is more prone to failure than a system that is simple. How prone a system is to failure depends on many thing and degree of complexity is but one of them.
Complexity can also be in the eye of the beholder, as well as the criteria used to determine complexity. In the above examples, the elaborate clock in a certain sense may be considered simple because it has few degrees of freedom in which things can go wrong, while the pendulum toy might be considered complex because there are multiple degrees of freedom in which it can move.
Getting back to your central question: if the tipping point that causes a catastrophic failure is generally impossible to predict, then having knowledge of the behavior of such systems would seem to have little usefulness in preventing said failure. In other words, we would be largely guessing and perhaps just as likely to attempt to fix the wrong thing as the right one.
I think that the condition to fear is over optimization and complexity doesn't make a system more or less stable. If redundancy is in place very, very complex systems can be robust.
So I guess over optimized systems with no redundancy is the danger.
Besides diversity and complexity there is another factor that explains quite a bit -- that of dispersion. Dispersion is the spreading out of rates over time such that gaps between human-valued metrics grow. It is related to entropy but it differs because one can actually try to model the details of the process. Example, we can consider the various human cultures in the world diverse, but due to technology the dispersive trends are quite high and the high-tech cultures will strip the resources faster than the low-tech cultures. Dispersion trumps diversity in this case and there is nothing at all very complex about it.
But of course I belong to category #1 or #2 in people following collapse dynamics so am apparently only along for the ride. So you can safely ignore anything I have to say.
I didn't mean that to be insulting (but maybe incendiary..;-), it was mainly an observation of the many systems experts I have interacted with.
Out of curiousity - are you doing anything in activist role? (I put myself in those first 2 groups too, by the way)
What category would you put the 14-year old astronomer from NY who discovered a supernova in a nearby galaxy?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090610154505.htm
Why is she doing this? Hasn't she seen Annie Hall yet?
Excessive navel-gazing leads to these kinds of responses. I likely don't treat meta-posts with enough rhetorical glee as I can't get past the ambiguity inherent in the statement of the problem. "Why are we here?" Guilty as charged.
Well, underlying ALL these posts is the meta-question 'why are we here'?
;-)
Way too early in the day to get that deep Nate.
I think it has something to do with turtles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
Actually, some scientists got together and went to the edge of the world and held one of their colleagues by the heels so he could look over the edge. "what did you see?" His colleagues asked him. "I saw six large elephants standing on the back of a giant tortoise, and off in the distance there was another giant tortoise with six large elephants on top of it coming toward us.
The scientists put their heads together and decided that the tortoises were coming toward each other for the purpose of mating. This has come to be known as the big bang theory:-)
The word "complexity" confuses more than it enlightens.
Consider the following two examples of "complexity". Each example is a means of getting a 200 ohm resistance to supply that LED that keeps the world awake.
Example one uses 200 one-ohm resistors wired in series.
Example two uses 1000 200k-ohm resistors wired in parallel.
They're both needlessly complex but the implications for fragility are exactly opposite to one another.
Arguably the grand corporate system has the series-sort of complexity, making it more fragile rather than less. Whereas biodiversity is of the parallel-circuit variety.
This is incorrect - you are assuming that the failure mode of an open circuit is more likely than the failure mode of a short circuit. If both modes have equal probabilities, then the two circuits have an identical likelihood of failure.
Both of the models fail to include the consequences of the failure of the power supply...
And many other things that happen in real life.
Twilight, you are in abstract principle correct, but I suspect you are not much of a practical person. In practice resistors usually burn out to become non-conductors rather than conductors. And the general rule is that a functional unit of some sort of other becomes a "break" in the process rather than the opposite. For instance failure of any part of a transport network or a production process. So my fragile ego is preserved undiminished which is ultimately what really matters.
Funny, I'm an electrical engineer with 23 years experience in circuit design for harsh electrical utility environments. Yes, open circuits are common, and so are short circuits due to other causes, but you missed my point.
You were using the circuit as illustration of two complex systems with very different vulnerabilities. In fact both circuits are equally vulnerable to a single failure of a resistor, it just depends on the relative likelihood of each type of failure (which can change in real life). And regardless of how you arrange the resistors, you can still fail due to an open elsewhere in the loop for example.
I'm less interested in levels of complexity than I am the tradeoff between efficiency and resiliency, as described by Greer (I will try to find the link). Systems that are highly optimized to improve one specific variable are very vulnerable, when compared to systems that are less optimized but more general.
Twilight--I agree the analogy with a resistor array was less than perfect. I was just trying to make the point briefly which is exactly made (but more tediously) in terms of comparing (1) a journey (or process) of one leg for which three alterative vehicles are available (enhanced resilience) with (2) a journey of three legs with only one vehicle available for each leg (hence reduced resilience). Maybe you're too much an electrical and not enough of a travelling engineer!
There is complex, and then there is complex.
A mechanical watch is complex, but most of that complexity outside of the watch: i.e. the knowledge needed to produce a watch - it's not just counting teeth on gears, there's friction to deal with, shocks, temperature and gravity impact on the movements of the balance spring, and so on. A reasonable mechanical watch can run -20/+40 seconds a day.
Building watches requires highly specialized workers, high precision turning and milling tools, and a clientele able to pay for the work and the materials.
Watches may be relatively sturdy, the system of resources, work and education that is needed to produce such watches is much more fragile.
Today, it has become hard to find a decent mechanical watch that costs less than a month's salary.
A natural and functional ecosystem is also very complex, and composed of complex subsystems. The thing is this, in nature every subsystem has to coexist with local conditions. Also, ecosystems have high redundancy (highly diverse populations - insects, birds, mammals - can feed of the fruits of a tree, but it still manages to reproduce)
Our economic and social systems, however, are as 'efficient' as we can make them, and we are not satisfied with local inputs only. So we criss-crossed the world with trade routes, and pumped billions of barrels of oil into building our very affluent and increasingly indirectly connected lives. And all of this enterprise is based on more or less sparsely localized and finite resources. It is a cinch, that collapse is imminent for most of civilization.
Moreover, we have built our cultures on fiction. There is a lot of good stuff in there: the bible, the koran, Adam Smith, Karl Marx, all contain precious nuggets of knowledge and wisdom, but they are not science. They are incomplete and sometimes clumsy attempts at describing the human condition. Stories we invent about ourselves.
And then we started to really believe in the ultimate goodness of growth. In forty years of perusal of the press, I cannot remember a single issue of a newspaper that did not cheer or worry about growth, somewhere in its pages.
We just don't get it. If growth doesn't stop, the bottle explodes.
The flaw in the human system is, that it does not stop growing, even as outlying areas are being sucked of life. And the human system is imposing uniformity, reducing diversity.
So yeah, things can only get worse.
Personally, I have to admit that being conscious of this stuff doesn't change my life very much. I pay my debts, slowly, which fills me with misgivings, as I can see deflation looming. I go to work, and have a beer afterward. I tell scare stories to anybody who cares to listen. I sort my garbage, but my food comes from chain stores.
From where I live in town, it takes more than an hour to walk to the nearest field.
I use public transport and a bicycle, have no car. I have two adolescent kids who I try to warn about the coming dearth of everything. They spend a lot of time in front of screens, manipulating buttons. As do I.
Apart from trying to build a little stash of food, I have no idea of what I will do wtshtf. I would like to own a plot of land, but in a densely populated country, land is at a premium, and I have to get out of debt first.
I feel about as powerless as my neighbors, most of whom don't have a clue of what is hanging over their heads.
I'm looking to find a decent mechanical watch. If I muddle through, I would like to have a memento of our technical prowess to bequeathe to whomever is left.
I don't know if you want a swiss watch but if price is a factor.............. I picked up a couple of cheap mechanical self-winding Seikos (one for me and one for my 10 year old son). If TSHTF then watch batteries aren't going to be around long.
If TSHTF so hard that you can't get a watch battery then a wristwatch will be the least of your problems.
Agreed.... but it will be better than paper money.
When it gets that bad I think most of us will be fine falling back to this:
http://www.sundials.co.uk/projects.htm
I agree.
But a mechanical watch is a nice example of technology that can easily be reverse-engineered. Anyone can count the gears, figure out how they are connected, and see that force comes from the mainspring and regulation from the balance spring.
A watch is a lesson in physics and mathematics, a library of knowledge ready for reading.
Quartz movements are very precise, and rotor plus quartz movements do not require batteries, presenting major advantages for using the timepiece as a -perpetual- counter of time. But quartz movements are quite incomprehensible pieces of technology, especially if they lack power.
From the standpoint of a 19th century white and civilized explorer: When the primitives first see a watch, it may look like magic, but it's workings are easily explained, and any smart kid could attempt to construct a similar timepiece, materials provided.
But how the f-expletive deleted- do you find out that quartz oscillates at 30 something thousand oscillations per minute when under a current, when no current is available, or for that matter, measurable?
Gears you can count using only eyes and fingers.
I agree with Joule.The lacking definition is "complexity". For us, it is complex a system that we do not easily understand. Another definition is "chaotic", that fractal mathematics describes as a behavior that we do not easily understand or that is largely disturbed by unknown variables...
In a strict sense all systems are complex and chaotic, but we are adept of over-simplifying things to get a proper mathematical description. Take a basic example of dropping a weight from 1 meter height, simple physics, isn't it? We can reduce the formulas to Fg=m.g.h, f=m.a, and calculate the uniform acceleration movement to get the time of flight. Obviously we will get it wrong, and no measurement will result in the calculated value, because we did not take into account the air resistance,derived from the shape of the object, that depends of the orientations it takes in flight, and so on...
The worst example possible is drop a sheet of paper, we cannot even know the position on the ground it will end up in! It depends on to many factors, the way it is dropped, the winds, the dynamic deformations of the surface, etc... So, if we cannot get these simplest thing right, how can we expect to understand the behavior of huge systems like our own biosphere?
There is no simplicity, except the one we made up in an abstract and imaginary world, that discards variables that "appear" to have little influence. But some times we discover that the "little influence" is not so insignificant after all.
What we are missing is the humility to understand our ignorance...
Nothing wrong with complexity in itself - as pointed out, stable ecosystems are normally complex and diverse. But in the case of human society, increased complexity has gone hand in hand with growing population and burden on resources, at the expense of the complexity/diversity of global and local ecosystems of which we are part.
Exactly right, accelerating growth on top of dispersion is what gives rise to the Logistic function leading to the characteristic Hubbert bell-shaped curve. If it wasn't for the accelerating term, the dispersion effects combined with proportional draw-down would flatten out the production curve over a much longer time period. We probably wouldn't even discern a distinct peak.
What would have happened if we had good analytical methods such as dispersive discovery and the shock model long ago? These do not involve difficult math and the use of computers is not necessary. I assert that careful watchers of the evolution of resource depletion could have fit the models to the empirical data early on and applied a kind of continual Bayesian update to monitor the situation. All the warning signs would have been clear much earlier. The heuristics of Hubbert were simply one man's intuition into what was to come. However the heuristics had no fundamental basis and as more data arrived, the adjustments necessary to update the heuristics had no justification and critics pointed out (arguably correctly) that early Hubbert followers were "shooting in the dark" about projections.
People question whether this is all water under the bridge given our current situation, yet I say another vital resource may come along that we can monitor more carefully.
How does the profit motive fit into the science?
I believe that as long as the possibility to extract profit exists, there will be little attempt to mediate use for the advantage of the commons. Likely the ability to accurately model the resource will only lead to the more efficient extraction of the resource in order to maximize profit.
I believe it is highly unlikely that overusing and polluting industries are unaware of the effects of their business. I believe that they operate along a curve which models "how much can we get away with and still make a buck?" Kind of like wall street these days - socialization of loss and privatization of gains.
My opinion,
Al
I've tried to draw parallels between Tainter's notion of complexity with the world of biology and believe his diminishing returns on complexity theories need refinement. Living organisms are complex, extinctions of species can be more attributed to becoming too specialized rather than too complex. Genetic algorithms can design circuits that are complex that are as resilient as simpler circuits. I'm more of a mind that if a system breaks it is more because it is lacking in some fundamental way rather than its complexity.
I'll be looking forward to your guest post refuting The Collapse of Complex Societies any day now. By all means, please publish your ideas on "refinement" of Tainter's theory. The only one I'm aware of so far has been Greer, and that's readable online.
A concept that tries to distinguish between complexity and diversity is called self-dissimilarity - see this paper http://ideas.repec.org/p/wop/safiwp/97-12-087.html.
My layman's understanding is that something like a person is very self-dissimilar - at each layer there is a completely different set of properties:
Atoms - described by physics
Molecules - described by genes and the chemical pathways (autocatalytic sets) of the various reactions
Cells and organs - described by engineering functions
Spirit and personality - computational science, psychology etc
I have not really thought about the financial world's complexity, but I guess that it also has a number of different levels, which makes it inherently complicated, so is inherently at risk of collapse.
Possible dissimilar levels would be:
Credit source
Market making
Analysis and strategy propagation
Stock aggregation (e.g. funds)
Derivative
Derivative squared
This gives us a problem becuase a person and a financial system are both "complex", but we don't expect a random collapses of a person, but we do expect financial markets to collapse. The missing part of the equation is criticality - being on the threshold of collapse. If you look at the work on sandpiles, criticality is a necessary condition for collapse, and the size of the collapse is determined buy how many areas at criticality are linked.
In the recent collapse of the financial markets, it is clear that a large number of different areas were at criticality, so a collapse in one area triggered a widespread collapse.
I have used these ideas at work to create a more robust organisation but reducing the criticality of the system. One of the problems accountants cause (speaking as an accountant) is that we like to drive optimisation, and optimising a system is very similar to driving it towards criticality. If you understand this you can engineer systems to be efficient without reaching criticality.
Jeremy
PS a great book on complexity is "At Home in the Universe" by Stuart Kauffman
Hello JeremyD,
The following is not aimed specifically at you, but is just a continuing thought process by me.
Consider my posting series: "She comes down from Yellow Mountain.."
Your Quote [well-stated,BTW]:
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"If you look at the work on sandpiles, criticality is a necessary condition for collapse, and the size of the collapse is determined buy how many areas at criticality are linked.
In the recent collapse of the financial markets, it is clear that a large number of different areas were at criticality, so a collapse in one area triggered a widespread collapse."
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I would suggest the recent and rapid Twenty-Fold increase in [S]ulfur contributed significantly, along with FF price increases, as the tight coupling between the two affected "how many areas at criticality are linked."
S is vital to [P]hosphorus beneficiation [I-NPK] for food, plus essential to jumpstarting nearly all industrial processes: from manufacturing simple, 'strike-anywhere' matches, to other mineral extraction to make the gamut of hi-tech devices from cellphones to computers, to making JDAM explosives to nuclear ICBMs.
If one considers what us 'Humanimals' pursue to be our "Societal Prey", it is Foundationally Asimov's Bio-Elemental List of P is #1, S is #2,... an so on. Even at the highest level this pursuit continues: the example of engineering nanophosphate superbatteries by initial S-application.
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EDIT: replaced incorrect link with correct link here.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5491/510970
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How are we any different than these hyenas comfortably going after the easiest and highest ERoEI first?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeuN7YAvdwc&feature=PlayList&p=752BD07017...
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Hyenas eat wildebeest alive. (PART 1) [3:38]
A pack of hyenas eat a wildebeest alive, guts first. The young animal is alive for five minutes while the hyenas chew through its stomach. Filmed in the Maasai Mara in Kenya by Clare.
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Same with humans, IMO: it is easier to buy calf's liver or chicken livers at the grocery store than to procure your own; ie, we simply love and truly crave the low-fruit first. Recall that many restaurants serve high P & S eggs 24/7, then recall my recent link that S-pricing has decreased recently 25-fold...Please think about that above hyena video the next time you eat some bacon & eggs with orange juice. :)
Now try to imagine Earthmarines hugely successful in delaying the widespread application of S; to help force Optimal Overshoot Decline, so that it can be extended to future generations. If that is too hard to NON-BAU-grasp, then how about a more BAU-like, highly profitable Webb/Pomerene extended to recovered-S for the Porridge Principle of Metered Decline?
IMO, either method fits the Asimov's Foundations concept of Predictive Collapse and Directed Decline, but just varies in strength and speed and strategy, but your mileage may vary [YMMV].
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Just a note [with full credit to TODer Paul_the_Engineer] that Zinc might be a future Liebig Minimum, too. Peak Everything sure seems to be hitting everything at once, that's for sure [but water shortages will be the absolute worse, IMO]:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5491/511539
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As an aside, is anyone else frustrated that the only google results for the "Porridge Principle of Metered Decline" and "Asimov's Bio-Elemental List" point back to this site? I'm trying to pull together some real logic from this "contiuing thought process" and it's not easy.
I know that a google failure doesn't mean it can't exist somewhere, but the link you gave for the Asimov list in another post (http://www.backyardnature.net/phosphor.htm) doesn't mention a list, nor does it cite the source of the Asimov quote.
I don't want to start a flame war; I know Mr Shaw is a long-term member with high standing and a lot of respect here, but this isn't about Mr. Shaw, it's about the quality of this particular post.
Following the links for each, I can eventually trace the "Asimov's Bio-Elemental List" as perhaps a badly cited reference to an essay titled "Life's Bottleneck" from April 1959.
So not only is the primary source not properly cited, it's from a source by a scientific thinker (even fantasist) over fifty years ago. The only claim that stands up here is that phosphorous is needed to sustain life.
You haven't cited a source to justify your claim about a "Twenty-Fold increase in [S]ulfur", and you don't even say if you mean production, use or price. Later you say price decreased, does that imply more supply?
It may well be that the site is really all about a small closed community who all are supposed to know what an Earthmarines and what a Webb/Pomerene is, and why Directed Decline is different from directed decline. It may be that I'm supposed to spend a few hours researching all the "She comes down from Yellow Mountain..." previous posts in order to try and figure out Bob's point here, and if this is the case please tell me and I'll pull my head in.
On the other hand, if this post is supposed to communicate some sort of idea or concept to an intelligent educated reader, it fails to do so.
Hello FeakWent,
Brief reply as I gotta go somewhere:
Sorry for the confusion, but I am a feeble techno-guru: I don't even know how to touch-type! I would love to link all my posts together, but I don't know how. Google USGS + sulfur to read about S-pricing back in 2007-2008. As stated before: I am hoping some TopTODers will flesh-out this topic more thoroughly.
There are random collapses of a person-it's called disease.
When you take undergrad level ecology or environmental science courses you hear certain truisms, such as the "complexity = stability" theme, repeated sufficiently often that you tend to believe them. Then you take graduate level ecology courses and come to the realization that there are so many exceptions to this "rule" that it lacks any relevancy. It's sort of like that "i before e except after c" truism: correct only about 60% of the time. The fact is that there's little correlation between ecosystem complexity and "stability" (however one chooses to define it), and that virtual monoculture palm communities in lowland Amazonia and littoral kelp communities are some of the most productive communities that exist. Complexity, per se, is no indicator of either stability or failure proneness.
Another quibble: "Anasazi" (a racist term) civilization didn't collapse due to climatic or environmental factors. The people we apply that term to came under increasing pressure from Na-Dene speaking invaders from the north and accordingly moved to more defensible locations or locations with more ready access to water.