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42 comments on Improving Power in Rural China
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42 comments on Improving Power in Rural China
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GAIA Host Collective
Why in the hell are solar water heaters $1000 in China but well over $5000 minimum in the US of A? Installation costs can't be that much, can they?
Um! While I'm not sure of all the details, firstly labor costs are much lower, but secondly they take the heater water and run it down pipes that go down the outside of the building and in through a hole in the wall.
This may not be that bad for a single dwelling, but where you have a host of these pipes coming down from the roof of an apartment complex it is quite ugly. So I image that there is a significant installation cost in the US that goes toward making it a bit more aesthetic.
I did, however, having looked at the construction, ask the same question but the other way on, namely why are they so much more expensive than electric heaters. The answer that I got was due to the monopoly on manufacture, which is done by companies from abroad (mainly I think Japan, but I am not sure of that) who have control of the process.
Since I wrote the piece I took the train from Xining City to Shanghai, and we saw that while solar water heaters were not that common in the villages of Qinghai, as we descended into Xi'an and beyond they become much more prevalent and were about 50% likely to be on the top of apartment complexes in the larger cities.
evacuated tube collector
http://tinyurl.com/kpnlve
may need other items
i feel flat plate is a better bang for your buck
http://tinyurl.com/mtqg72
You may 'feel' that, but a flat plate collector can't work in -40 F deg weather.
An evacuated tube rig can.
Also - the $1000 price is for a batch system. And that is close to what you can buy 'em for in the states the last time I looked at importing from China.
Have a look on ebay for panel costs. £300-£500 for evacuated tubes. £1500 for a complete diy kit. £3000 installed. So, yup.
Also rather than simply feeding your DHW tank, you might as well install a "Heat Bank" or "Heat Store" which can then feed heat to your central heating as well. Replumb your existing boiler to feed the heat store, plumb the radiators to use the heat store as a source. Add a wood burning stove as a source as well.
If you DIY, payback can be 3-5 years. Otherwise, 5-10.
Profit margins on solar water heaters are huge.
The US price for solar water heaters is "set" by the UK/American firms that make the evacuated vacuum tubes, and of course, installation labor is a considerable sum in addition at regular construction / plumbing contractor rates in the US.
Then there is the markup --- many of the importers of the lower cost Chinese product --- are making whopping margins well above shipping cost, duties, etc.
2 to 4X their cost FOB China is not uncommon.
Look at your regular run-on-the-mill Walmart item. If it cost $10, you can be reasonably sure that the Chinese manufacturer got paid not much more than $2.50 less freight and insurance.
That $20 pair of jeans was sourced from China for less than $5.
I don't know about the US of A Daxtatter, but here in BC Canada I am selling and installing them for around $1,500.00. Depending on location (roof, ground, etc) and configuration. ie. compact units like here: http://best-solar-water-heaters.com/products.htm , evacuated solar tubes seperate from reservoir (with recirc pump) , system in combination with instant gas water heater (not for fifteen hundred bucks of course)
Just to say, they can come cheap. The ones I currently install are imported from China btw. manufactured by a company named THpower.
If you are selling it for USD $1,500, your cost to buy that in China is probably somewhere around USD $200, and USD $100 to ship it to North America in container sized quantities.
I did some evaluations of some of the units available in North America from China, and here are some of the issues:
- Chinese units are built to relatively low standards for plumbing / water pressure / insulation / long term durability.
In North American use, first, there cannot be one model that fits all, but models tailored to each of the different major markets with different climatic / weather / and other needs.
The Chinese units must be far better built and engineered. Simply put, in North America, it is "install and forget" whereas in China, it is cheap to send repairman to fix it --- even if that needs to be done 2 or 3 times a year.
Here are some obvious problems with the Chinese units --- they may not apply to all, but many I saw:
- Not engineered to withstand North American water pressures commonly encountered.
- Many Chinese units are in fact, not intended for pressurized water system use at all --- but water is pumped up at relatively low pressures to a rooftop cistern, and then dropped down apartments by gravity alone. This is typical of rural installations.
- Insufficient insulation to withstand freezing / thawing in the climate extremes found in many parts
- Poor quality of components --- ranging from Rubber Seals / Gaskets / Mounts that do not appear to be weather proof / sun proof for a reasonably long time (e.g. 10 years). The best example are the rubber mounts for the glass tubes --- the ones I saw will hardly last 2 or 3 years in the USA.
- Corrosion prone components that cannot withstand the normal North American weather, which can / may include exposure to road salt or salt spray from the ocean.
- Question of durability in areas of the country with "hard" water or "aggressive" water.
- Insufficient service / support / CREDIBLE long term assurance of parts availability, let alone Warranties.
Units made to North American specs and needs can be credibly built in China --- but it will have to be made for and marketed by a credible North American retailer with long term service, maintenance and support --- and not an upstart vendor that may fold in a year or two... when trouble with the units start.
Dax,
The local guys who cut your grass around here "on the side"charge about one third what it costs to get the guys with business phones,insurance,and accurate tax returns.
I would also hazard a guess that the average Chinese is not burdened with a building or plumbing inspection for such a minor job,nor a "realtor" or banker prissily demanding exact conformance to somewhat arbitrary installation standards.
The costs of civilization can add up fast!
It will take the Chines a long time to build a welfare/bueracrat state comparable to ours-which is spartan compared to most of Europe.
Hi OFM,
You might be surprised at how inefficient your welfare is compared to Europe. For example, health treatment is usually covered for all from general taxes and does not stop when someone becomes unemployed. As a percentage of GDP the spend is far less than USA but covers pretty much everybody and life expectancy etc is broadly similar to the USA.
I guess less is spent on administration. The system varies from country to country within Europe and may be covered by various taxes of course to disguise/confuse these from the voteriat, e.g. in the UK part of the tax is called National Insurance and is supposed to cover health and pensions it is paid by both employees and employers at about 13%, in Belgium it is called ONSS and for employers is about 30%. Private insurance is also available.
I assume your local guys are using equipment that has been expensed to a company and are not paying any taxes on their income, thus increasing everyone elses taxes - the joys of a cash based business:-) What's that American saying don't tax me, don't tax you, tax the person behind the tree???
Tony,
You are unfortunately correct in your comparison of our relative expenses and inefficiencies in regard to medical care.Europe is obviously way ahead in this respect,and in energy conservation too.Other aspects of the American versus European way of getting things done are mostly debateable imo.
But as regards the guys cutting grass "on the side" they are most assuredly not using thier employers equipment.These are VERY small business in this country with very few employees and the boss/owner generally knows exactly where every machine is 24 /7.
When the tax burden "straight up" is about 40 percent (around 6 percent state incone taxes,and 15 percent FICA,and twenty plus federal incime,plus local taxes,plus avioded expenses such as the bookkeeper and the business phone and a properly zoned address from which to run a "legit" business,it's no problem to pay out anywhere from a couple of thousand to ten thousand or so to get a "one horse" operation equipped and running.
Some savings are not obvious at first glance ,such a a zero advertisng budget,and zero time spent on banking chores-get paid in cash,spend cash,do your own maintainence,etc.There is no supervisor,no insider theft,no sleeping on company time,no incentive to do any busy work or ass cover work etc.
All these guys really need is one good large mower,a push mower,a couple of trimmers,and a trailer,as in most cases they already own a pickup truck,which is also frequently used as the family car and commuter vehicle.In a lot of cases they use the same mower and other tools as they use to maintain thier own residences.
The most expensive AND inefficient workers worldwide I have ever encountered were in the USA, Atlanta. This was for an exhibition and I have done these all round the world, States, Europe and Asia. Everything had to be done by unionised labour which in fact meant they stood and watched my guys do the work, they had to transport stuff 100m from the loading bays at huge charge, basic stuff wasn't done e.g. no electric supply!!, stuff I had ordered months before wasn't delivered on time... My experience was typical of many others at the show:-(
This was for an exhibition
Ahh, yes. Trade show labor rates.
They have a captive group demanding their labor. A group that, as a whole, will throw money at a problem.
Ever seen the food costs at a trade show?