IME, that's the biggest barrier in technical writing: often, the tech types are completely unaware of how incomprehensible they are. That is, they don't even know there's a problem, or are unaware of how big the problem is. They often think they are good at communicating with "normal folk," while the normal folk see it quite differently.
Thanks to you and Ron both. I appreciate the honesty.
I don't mean to be either sarcastic or mean WHT, but surely you must realize than only a very tiny fraction of everyone has even the slightest clue as to what the hell you are talking about.
Yet we have to remember that this is a two-way street that we are engaged in. The tiny fraction that includes me also needs to be here to understand other posts coming out of TOD. As a case in point, there was a recent post called "Mind-sized Hubbert" by Ugo Bardi describing a Lotka-Volterra model that motivated my own post. I could understand his equations and what he was getting at. Yet there was a large problem, as his model was completely misguided and ultimately wrong. If people reading TOD actually believe that we understand oil depletion by the contents of that post, we have a serious credibility problem. It is perhaps better to be inscrutable than wrong at this point. A few dedicated people need to cross-check the stuff.
So it looks like the stage of where I am at, I am trying to write for an intuitive non-technical audience through the use of analogies, but I balance that with enough information that the technical types can grasp. Ultimately, a scientific argument has to be reproducible for it to be called science, and unless I place some technical details in the post, no one will be able to reproduce the argument. Since Bardi included enough of the model details in his post, I could reproduce it and call him on the problems with the approach. I also supplied him with some data that he could check his theory with. That is essentially the way that knowledge advances, as the discussion ebbs and flows. If TOD contains just a few people willing to duke the technical details out, that is generally all it takes.
On my own blog, which has been active and dedicated to peak oil for longer than TOD has been around, the content has changed significantly. For the first couple of years I was posting daily with many rehashed arguments from other sources. Then I gradually started to do the more in-depth modeling posts and my productivity dropped way down. It has gotten to the point that I get lucky if I can get one post per month out. It is entirely possible that you can get stymied down some investigative path and bang your head for long periods of time. Perhaps the moral is that what you get out of some argument, is equal to the amount of effort you put into it. I had spent some time on Lotka-Volterra models, so that when Bardi produced his post, I was primed and ready to respond.
It will be interesting if we can get an analogy that will take. Predator-Prey is definitely out. What do people think about the popcorn popping analogy?
I like the popcorn analogy, but I think the qualitative aspects will be more important to most than the quantitative analysis. Right now we're in the middle of the fast-popping zone -- so fast you can hardly discern individual pops, and there is no way to know if the bag is 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 popped. Keep going much longer though, and the smell will make it obvious that this party is about over.
I have enough math hours to have a math minor on top of an engineering degree, but that was a long time ago. I can follow the math but I couldn't devise it anymore. I appreciate that those who focus on that skill set do so, and that provides a necessary quantitative and theoretical basis for what is happening in the empirical world. It certainly helps with the "prediction" side of the problem.
So, use your nifty algorithms to draw up some nice explanation/prediction graphs and devise cogent relationships between contributing factors and I'll be right there with you. If you want input on which regression method should be used to refine the second decimal point of your exponential decay rate, you're on your own!
Excellent, Thanks for the insight. You gave me a great idea in regards to an explanation graph.
As I said in the post, there are three levels of learning a new concept: the enactive, iconic, and symbolic. Among the reasons for doing analogies is to embrace the tactile intuition that we get from experiencing something (watching popcorn pop is the enactive), and hearing stories like yours about smelling the popcorn evokes emotion and shared experiences (i.e. the iconic portion). The last bit is coming up with symbologies, which represents the true analogy, and graphing the concept is a big part of this.
These are really right/left brain concepts I am exploring here.
WHT, I would suggest that historical analogy can be a simple but powerful argument for a general audience. This is used effectively by some of the TOD "peak oil overview" presentations, in which the production history of the U.S. is shown to graphically illustrate the up-and-down nature of resource extraction. Once that point is made, extrapolating to the notion of a worldwide peak is a relatively minor step.
This is reasonable, unfortunately the quantitative part is not there. This means we lose any depletion management numbers, except for some heuristic extrapolation from the USA. Cornucupians will try to attack this approach as relying too much on rank empiricism.
In some circles of social work scholarship there appears to be an extraordinary faith that many, many empirical but atheoretical studies will add up to something. I have heard this described in various ways, as pieces of a great unknown puzzle, as building blocks to make a wall, and so on. Unfortunately, it does not work this way. Knowledge builds only within theoretical structures. To make this point more concrete, pieces of a puzzle make a coherent image only when there is an overall design, and bricks make a wall only when there is a plan for the wall. Thousands of studies with no theory are not likely to add up to much; they will be like random pieces from many puzzles, or like bricks of many dimensions strewn haphazardly across the yard.
This is not to say that rank empiricism is entirely useless. Facts can sometimes be useful, and eventually insight (induction, theory building) is likely. The problem with rank empiricism is that it is hugely inefficient. If one puts enough bricks and debris out in the yard, eventually there will be some kind of barrier, but an intellectual structure beforehand will help build a thinner, stronger, and more beautiful wall, and build it much faster.https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/36909/1/12_Sherraden_paper.pdf
The whale story ultimately fails as a great analogy solely for the fact that whales reproduce and the population recovered somewhat. If whales actually went extinct, it would work as a "running out of" example, yet even that is not accurate.
It also reinforces the possibility that an economically exchangeable resource for oil exists. Since petroleum replaced whale oil, the argument would stand that something better will replace oil.
fair points both. however, I know that when I use the whale oil story in class with the entire historical context they get the dynamics (and I emphasize that there is no substitutability, etc.)
Lubrication is small enough that it can be replaced with oils synthesized from biomass.
Heck, liquid hydrocarbons can be synthesized from electricity and atmospheric CO2 right now - it's expensive ( roughly $10/gallon), but doable.
Here's a discussion of conventional synthetic motor oil - you begin to see how it can be synthesized from almost any hydrocarbon stock,including biomass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil
It also reinforces the possibility that an economically exchangeable resource for oil exists. Since petroleum replaced whale oil, the argument would stand that something better will replace oil.
WHT, this is a bit off-topic, but...I can't stand it. Again - why do you think that wind/solar electricity can't replace oil?
But in the larger picture, air travel isn't important enough to say that oil can't be replaced, right?
Further:
1) air transport is only about 5M B/day
2) at least 60% of air travel is recreational, so the current 5M B/day could fall to 2M B/day, and not affect "commerce as usual"
3) oil production can maintain a level of 10M B/day for 100 years or more
4) kerosene (jet fuel) could be replaced by existing tech over time, even though it would be annoying and expensive - existing tech includes hydrogen, or synthetic fuel - fuel can be synthesized from electricity and atmospheric CO2 even now - it's expensive ( roughly $10/gallon), but doable
5) in 100 years we're likely to have new energy storage tech
6) even if we don't, the combination of higher efficiency air travel, synthetic fuel and high efficiency PV would work pretty well, albeit at a cost per seat-mile that might be, say, twice what it is now.
2M B/day, and not affect "commerce as usual"...............
What a load of tripe.
And what do you think would have happened to the economy to drop air travel use by 3M B/day?
What would be the cost of business travel if passenger occupation dropped by two thirds?
Do you expect airlines would carry on commerce as usual?
What would happen to the tourism industry along with the myriad of supporting roles by other industries and businesses?
Point 3 is as pointless, useless, meaningless and ridiculous a statement you have ever made, I'll trump it and say it can maintain 20M B/day for 200 years or more......so what.
Points 4,5,6 are as naive as ......edit and deleted too nasty.
And what do you think would have happened to the economy to drop air travel use by 3M B/day?
I agree - such a drop isn't likely any time soon. I was addressing a long-term perspective.
What would be the cost of business travel if passenger occupation dropped by two thirds?
Actually, business travel subsidizes recreational travel, so business costs might fall. Air travel has relatively low overhead (no rail or roads to maintain), so air travel could shrink quite a lot with relatively little impact on economies of scale.
Nick, I suspect many here will not reply seriously to your question because they will think you must be a bit of an etc.
However, here goes from one to another, so to speak.
At present, wind and solar constitute an utterly piddling proportion of energy supply. It could be ~sort-of~ argued that that could be vastly scaled up in future years if people just had the vision. Well, putting aside the fact that they won't have the vision...
Firstly that vast scaling up has not yet happened. Things rarely work out as easy as expected. That vast scaling up would require a huge redeployment and retraining of the people to carry it out. It would require a massive investment/ commitment of lots of money and personnel resources. It would require the conversion/replacement of millions of costly machines that are currently oil-powered, along with establishing the alternative supply infrastructures. Again masses of people would have to be retrained in the new tech.
All that might be fine except that there is an ongoing crisis of credit. People and governments can barely afford just ticking over let alone this major investment to replace a setup that has resulted from decades of prior investment.
Add to that the problem of urgency. It's no good envisioning what might be possible for 20 years' time if meanwhile the system has a cash-flow (energy-flow) failure beforehand. And the issue of now is how to substitute for the decline of several percent p.a. from right now.
I don't see that as remotely possible and I'm rather obviously far from the only one here. I think it therefore rests with yourself, to make a case that there is some credible substitution scenario.
You might want to include in it some consideration of the fact of the USK government/s supporting of manufacture of yet more ff-autos, rather than reduction of dependency.
[PS--ccpo's nit about lubrication was merely a piss-take undeserving of a reply and it might be best if you delete your reply to it.]
At present, wind and solar constitute an utterly piddling proportion of energy supply.
Not really. Wind is 2% of US electricity, and 40% of new generation (8.5GW last year).
that vast scaling up has not yet happened.
It has, actually. Wind is very much a large-scale thing now. Growing to, say, 25GW per year would be no big deal.
That vast scaling up would require a huge redeployment and retraining of the people to carry it out.
Not really. We're talking manufacturing and construction. We have plenty of well-trained unemployed in both areas.
It would require the conversion/replacement of millions of costly machines that are currently oil-powered
Manufacturing is mostly electrically powered. The diesel required for the transportation and installation is pretty trivial.
People and governments can barely afford just ticking over let alone this major investment to replace a setup that has resulted from decades of prior investment.
Utilities have good cash flow, and wind has the advantage of very short lead times. Besides, the original question was: "Is there a good substitute for oil?". Whether we're going to have total financial collapse due to bad social structures is a separate question (not that that's likely).
It's no good envisioning what might be possible for 20 years' time if meanwhile the system has a cash-flow (energy-flow) failure beforehand.
For better or worse, we have plenty of coal and natural gas to get us through an electrical generation transition. As far as oil goes, we can easily reduce non-commercial travel (solo commuting, especially) enough to reduce oil consumption by 25%. Commercial travel (trucks and ships) can reduce their consumption overnight by large percentages, just by slowing down. We really don't have a physical shortage of BTUs.
nd the issue of now is how to substitute for the decline of several percent p.a. from right now.
There's no sign of decline yet. We're on an extended plateau, which may last another 3-5 years. After that..things will get harder. Still, there will be more than enough oil to fuel the really essential things.
I don't see that as remotely possible and I'm rather obviously far from the only one here. I think it therefore rests with yourself, to make a case that there is some credible substitution scenario.
You might want to include in it some consideration of the fact of the USK government/s supporting of manufacture of yet more ff-autos, rather than reduction of dependency.
The US is pushing it's car industry towards electrification - see articles on the Chevy Volt, money going to other EVs like the Tesla.
ccpo's nit about lubrication ... undeserving of a reply
Good thought. I edited my reply to be purely informational. Even the silliest of comments is a education opportunity for lurkers...
Thanks Nick for taking this trouble to reply. I think best if I just say I (and obviously some others here) don't find much persuasiveness in those rejoinders, and leave it at that for now. (Hopefully a more suitable page will come up before long.)
Well, please feel free to leave comments on my blog. I'd be delighted to have this conversation there, at as much length as you'd like.
One of the reasons I blog, and comment here, is to fine-tune my understanding of what's going on, and I appreciate your and other's responses very much.
I don't like the popcorn anology, as near as I can understand it, because I don't think it is accurate. Your curve still looks like the standard bell curve. I think this is highly inaccurate. I believe we are well past 50 percent depletion. Take Russia for instance.
Russian organic decline in production is close to 19%. To compensate for that organic decline, Russia drills somewhere between 5,000 and 6,000 wells every year.
And:
Therefore, next year there will be a lot fewer fields coming on stream; in the absence of new incentives to put more money to work to grow Russian oil production, it will naturally start declining, with organic decline rates of around 19% and growing. Russian Oil and Gas Industry
19 percent and growing! How can a decline rate that high be growing? Easy, in order to keep production rate high they are just punching a lot more holes in their old reservoirs and sucking the oil out a lot faster. This keeps production up but increases the decline rate from all other wells in the same reservoir. This will mean that when Russian oil does start to decline, it will plunge like a rock in a pond.
And this very same thing is happening in most other old reservoirs, especially OPEC reservoirs. Saudi Arabia has decreased their decline rate from an average of 8 percent to 2 percent simply by sucking harder on their old reservoirs.
And theis is why the peak oil curve will look like a shark fin, not the standard bell curve. This will become apparent to the world by no later than 2012.
I lost you with my argument because you are on the production side of the equation. The popcorn popping is only analogizing the process of discovery. I realize that you know that the two processes are distinct but for some reason this point didn't come across.
The basic analogy is this: all the reservoirs lying beneath the surface of the earth are kernels ready to pop. We supply various rates of effort and the reservoirs supply varying degrees of resistance to be discovered. Those represent the internal variations of the popcorn kernels and the external variations of the shells. I find it amazing that there exists that much variation in popcorn such that you get what amounts to the drawn out Logistic curve of a popping time histogram. And we apparently take this for granted everytime we pop corn.
The key take-home message is the fact that no one recognizes that this variation is even more striking in oil discovery than it is with popcorn popping. You think that popcorn kernels are homogeneous? Well, just think of the varying geology, societal technologies, etc. The only thing consistent that ties it together is an overall accelerating rate of effort. Yet, no one wants to analyze the Hubbert discovery peak this way (except for me, that is, IMHO).
Not to say that production doesn't figure into the discussion. But that is a job for the oil shock model, which has some other more appropriate analogies.
I think your popcorn analogy is good enough to run with. I guess I have been hanging around TOD long enough to have a least a little bit of a clue about discovery peak issues. Even so, this analogy helps.
Thanks, and the graft on accelerating effort would be of interest
So true Leanan. As you are aware, several days ago I prompted readers to post their stories/metaphors about peak oil. This sort of thing typically brings on the chiding from, as I called them, the "pocket protector" crowd. A few posted thoughtful and enlightening metaphors. It takes time and work to create a story that resonates, to create a compelling vision. I grew up on the mantra that ideas are a dime a dozen, it's the follow through that counts. In 2005, after attending the first ASPO-USA conference, I was inspired to take action and do everything I could think of (including running for U.S. Congress) to raise the awareness of this issue among my elected peers. Leaving Denver in 2005, I believed that others were equally inspired and the word would spread like wild-fire. Since then I have spent a great deal of time trying to understand why this fire is choked of fuel.
TOD is largely an echo-chamber--albeit one I have enjoyed immensely. I hope it continues but I also hope it does so with an audience that wants to share the "doing" rather than just the conversation. Nate has taken us beyond the technical discussions of peak oil, to consider the human element. How can we implement that understanding as we attempt to move more people from the spectator stands to the playing field.
The first snow of the season is falling here in Mammoth Lakes. I'm not ready to hang up my hiking boots just yet because the fall (aptly named) is unpredictable. The TOD team is especially needed during these unpredictable times and those of us who feel a kinship here need to ask ourselves what value WE can add to its continued success. My thanks to everyone who has added value to my understanding and knowledge.
With that I will close with an example of a communication tool that is better suited to reaching the "normal folk." http://vimeo.com/6823943
The problem with science and particularly scientific theories on this level is that you need a controlled experiment to test against. Unfortunately, we are in the middle of the biggest controlled experiment known to mankind, and ultimately the only controlled experiment available to test the hypothesis is the one we are in.
Therefore one way to convince people is to use metaphors and analogies of other controlled experiments and compare the trajectories of those against the observations of our own oil depletion path.
I think the video is good but it doesn't help as a management tool as much as a model would. For example, a model with a good analogy can be used directly as a depletion management tool. It could actually be used for prediction and possible outcomes. This could help shape policy. Since have impressive experience in politics, of course you realize the importance of policy in politics. ;)
Well, maybe, but I dunno..."normal folk" don't go to the Corcoran...never mind whether they even have ready access to something like it...they're too busy shuttling their kids to the endless sports meets, or, if the kids are grown up and gone, they're maybe going to football games or (in summer) the cabin up north, or, if they're really poor, they're staying home...
Worse still, according to the video, the picture show appears to be little more than an artistically self-indulgent exercise in equating large scale with iniquity and doom. One perhaps supposes the desired alternative to be, as usual, some sort of mythological ancient agricultural landscape where everything is done on a small scale, in order that the viewer should see it as "humanized", meaning in part that the dirty bits, rampant disease, starvation, and so on, should fall neatly out of the frame. Alas, it just seems so hopelessly fatuous in the face of a population of seven billion and rising with no end in sight. Wherever and whenever populations become large and dense, we seem to encounter large scale.
Indeed, we encountered large scale millennia before the arrival of 'fossil fuels' in the modern sense. So even a stack of emotionalized photographs tall enough to to use as a space-elevator might be unlikely to make it go away. And we should be careful what we wish for - concepts such as "capping global carbon emissions", for example, will become meaningless should global social structures become severely compromised or break down.
My favorite analogy to explain "why" would be a Slurpee analogy.
The first half of a Slurpee is easy to drink as the juice comes right through your straw. We could even share it with someone else with two straws. Eventually the easy to get juice declines, and the ice starts to pack together. There is still plenty of juice, we just have a harder time drinking it. We have to shake the drink up a bit, or poke the straw in multiple times, or stir it, or blow into the straw to break up the ice, or just wait till it melts. It comes out slower no matter what we do, and the juice we unlock is not as tasty as the first juice when we first got the Slurpee.
Very good analogy for some of the details such as reserve growth and secondary recovery. The next issue is how to extend that from the qualitative to the quantitative.
As you are aware, several days ago I prompted readers to post their stories/metaphors about peak oil.
Debbie, your request strikes me as no different than people who are looking for the silver bullet that will solve the energy problem itself.
Isn't it possible that changing a societal conversation is really hard especially when there are so many physical structures that support the current one? (i.e. the gasoline is still coming out of the pumps, 401k statements pull people toward a growth economy, etc.)
We could have a wonderful analogy and the distribution and action problems would still be there: how to get it in front of enough people, how to burst the bubble that protects people from understanding it, then how to motivate them to actually do something when they finally do get it.
Getting peak oil widely known will never happen in time and likely never will happen. Wishing it is some other way is like complaining that the basketball hoop is too high or the football field has too many yards. A football field has 100 yards, not one yard more or less. Since those are the rules of the game, the only fulfilling option is not to fight that but instead to embrace it and have fun playing the game as it is constructed.
Isn't it possible that changing a societal conversation is really hard especially when there are so many physical structures that support the current one? (i.e. the gasoline is still coming out of the pumps, 401k statements pull people toward a growth economy, etc.)
Not to mention that the shamans who are the ones who have the power to cast magic spells and foretell the rosy future are using all of their powers to conjure up the everlasting growth is good, growth will continue mantra.
There is a picture of Alan Greenspan (worth a look) that reminds me of the Wizard Saruman from Tolkein's Trilogy. The one power Saruman does not lose after his fall is his silver tongue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saruman
The meaning of names was important to Tolkien: Saruman means "man of skill".
In the book, Saruman is one of several characters illustrating the corruption of power; his desire for knowledge and order has led to his fall and he rejects the chance of redemption when it is offered. He serves as an example of technology and modernity being overthrown by the forces of nature.
obviously, what you guys need is a two-tier system: scientific explanations for the techies and to stay credible with science, and a translation section for the non-techies.
for instance, what are you really trying to say with the popcorn analogy? for an intuitive understanding, for a non-techy, it has to be both simple and intuitive:
I submit that what you are trying to say with the popcorn analogy is two things:
1. The production of oil starts with a few slow "pops", or finds, then speeds up to a peak where there are so many "pops" they run together, then it slows back down to a few "pops" or finds, every once in a while, until there are no more, or if you keep waiting for more, you spoil the batch.
2. Those last few "pops" don't mean that there's a big peak coming again, they're just small pops.
This works because a) most people think in analogies and b) most people are very familiar with popcorn
You just can't get into detail with analogies, because a) that's not what they're for[analogies are to produce insight, insight has to do with overall process, not detail] and b) no analogy holds up when you get into detail.
I prefer the mound of dirt or haystack full of basketballs, baseballs and marbles. What you gonna find first? Could be any of the three. But which are you gonna finish finding first? Basketballs, by a wide margin. Next? The vast majority of the baseballs, also by a fair margin, though the actual last field or two to be found might be baseballs. Marbles last.
Make it beach balls in a pile of dirt on the beach... whatever. The nice thing is, it's the same action: digging for something buried. Hell, make it buried treasure. Cannons and treasure chests, cannon balls and goblets then ingots.
But it doesn't really bear out. Deffeyes did a study of the size ordering in his earlier book and didn't find much variation. It is perhaps a second-order effect.
The obvious thing is that no one ends up searching for the large fields first -- they find what they find. Of course, the cross-section for larger fields is larger but how does it operationally manifest itself?
The population distribution of cities in the USA maps very well to the size distribution of reservoirs.
Now imagine that you were flying overhead in an airplane and you were searching for cities out the window. I dare say that you would spot all cities of size at least 1000 on first glance. Hence, if you look at the correspondence to oil reservoir sizes, you could then presume that you might also find lots of the medium and up size reservoirs. Once you get those, all the smaller reservoirs don't amount to much cumulative volume in the end.
So I contend that the size analogy is not the best approach. It doesn't hurt to push that, but you can safely ignore it and you still get a good conservative estimate just by using the dispersive discovery (popcorn) model.
I read your response about the popcorn and your critique here. In both cases, "Huh?" was the overriding response. The analogies aren't for you, they're for us.
Trust us when we tell you, simple us good. I don't need to know jack poop about Dispersive Discovery to understand Peak Oil. Point out finding fields is like the frequency of popcorn popping or the liklihood of finding various sizes of needles in a haystack and I know all I need to. I know we've probably found all those basketballs and a lot of baseballs and are in deep doo-doo.
There is another factor and that is that the analogies are essentially random search while the real world i.e. the cities and the oil fields are going to be searched according to geographic features (rivers and other reasons to expect large populations for cities) and geologic (reasons to expect oil to be there).
So cities and oil fields won't be searched for randomly. I know that people don't search for oil randomly and the city example you gave I am not sure if you based on a random search or not but if so it is not a fair comparison.
The different sized balls in a sand pile is pure random so other than being a good physical analog it also may not be the best process analog.
All math aside the best we can have is a correlation that could in the city example be very coincidental but in the sand pile example at least the physical comparison makes sense.
On another note.
It would be very interesting if anyone could come up with a guess for how much undiscovered oil might be lurking in Iraq.
I understand that it has never really been fully surveyed.
touche but if you followed the aqueducts?
Granted they are man made but still a clue.
How do you come up with 5-6%???
The coasts are where I would expect to find people and low and behold that is where most are including the great lakes so I don't know where you are coming from except the outliers you mention.
Edit: I miss-interpreted your comment. I see now you meant that at least 5-6% of the population is in Phoenix and vegas and not at all where you would expect based on geography.
But my response here is still valid just not a direct answer to you.
Your response is valid, but irrelevant when discussing outreach to the general public. They simply don't need to understand the explicit point you seem to think is important. All the lay person needs to understand is that most, if not all, of the easy oil has been found. From these simple analogies they can also understand receding horizons because it should be obvious that having one operation with many rigs is more cost effective than having many operations and many rigs.
It simply doesn't matter if they understand the dispersive part. To top it off, many lay people would end up just as confused by the full popcorn analogy as the actual technical explanation.
Besides, dispersive is kind of handled by gravity if you stick with the haystack instead of dirt: most b-balls, baseballs and marbles will predictably be on the floor, being much heavier than the straw.
Note that finding large fields first does not empirically hold, as it is pretty much randomized. Why somebody wants to push what amounts to at best a second-order effect as the principal cause, I don't know why. I guess I am just pointing out the inconvenient truth.
OK. I stand corrected it looks like no matter how the searches are conducted the finds follow the same trend. Interesting.
Kind of like Jed Klampit exploration.
Probably makes sense - even large fields are small in relation to the Earth's land area, and offer few clues to their existence. It appears that in more recent decades the Actual moved a little closer to the Large Fields First line, which might be the influence of newer technologies. Seems like a small movement for all of that - still not much better than poking holes at random.
IME, that's the biggest barrier in technical writing: often, the tech types are completely unaware of how incomprehensible they are. That is, they don't even know there's a problem, or are unaware of how big the problem is. They often think they are good at communicating with "normal folk," while the normal folk see it quite differently.
And we on TOD staff are not immune.
Thanks to you and Ron both. I appreciate the honesty.
Yet we have to remember that this is a two-way street that we are engaged in. The tiny fraction that includes me also needs to be here to understand other posts coming out of TOD. As a case in point, there was a recent post called "Mind-sized Hubbert" by Ugo Bardi describing a Lotka-Volterra model that motivated my own post. I could understand his equations and what he was getting at. Yet there was a large problem, as his model was completely misguided and ultimately wrong. If people reading TOD actually believe that we understand oil depletion by the contents of that post, we have a serious credibility problem. It is perhaps better to be inscrutable than wrong at this point. A few dedicated people need to cross-check the stuff.
So it looks like the stage of where I am at, I am trying to write for an intuitive non-technical audience through the use of analogies, but I balance that with enough information that the technical types can grasp. Ultimately, a scientific argument has to be reproducible for it to be called science, and unless I place some technical details in the post, no one will be able to reproduce the argument. Since Bardi included enough of the model details in his post, I could reproduce it and call him on the problems with the approach. I also supplied him with some data that he could check his theory with. That is essentially the way that knowledge advances, as the discussion ebbs and flows. If TOD contains just a few people willing to duke the technical details out, that is generally all it takes.
On my own blog, which has been active and dedicated to peak oil for longer than TOD has been around, the content has changed significantly. For the first couple of years I was posting daily with many rehashed arguments from other sources. Then I gradually started to do the more in-depth modeling posts and my productivity dropped way down. It has gotten to the point that I get lucky if I can get one post per month out. It is entirely possible that you can get stymied down some investigative path and bang your head for long periods of time. Perhaps the moral is that what you get out of some argument, is equal to the amount of effort you put into it. I had spent some time on Lotka-Volterra models, so that when Bardi produced his post, I was primed and ready to respond.
It will be interesting if we can get an analogy that will take. Predator-Prey is definitely out. What do people think about the popcorn popping analogy?
I don't like the popcorn popping analogy. I don't see the connection to peak oil at all, really.
I like the popcorn analogy, but I think the qualitative aspects will be more important to most than the quantitative analysis. Right now we're in the middle of the fast-popping zone -- so fast you can hardly discern individual pops, and there is no way to know if the bag is 1/4, 1/2, or 3/4 popped. Keep going much longer though, and the smell will make it obvious that this party is about over.
I have enough math hours to have a math minor on top of an engineering degree, but that was a long time ago. I can follow the math but I couldn't devise it anymore. I appreciate that those who focus on that skill set do so, and that provides a necessary quantitative and theoretical basis for what is happening in the empirical world. It certainly helps with the "prediction" side of the problem.
So, use your nifty algorithms to draw up some nice explanation/prediction graphs and devise cogent relationships between contributing factors and I'll be right there with you. If you want input on which regression method should be used to refine the second decimal point of your exponential decay rate, you're on your own!
Excellent, Thanks for the insight. You gave me a great idea in regards to an explanation graph.
As I said in the post, there are three levels of learning a new concept: the enactive, iconic, and symbolic. Among the reasons for doing analogies is to embrace the tactile intuition that we get from experiencing something (watching popcorn pop is the enactive), and hearing stories like yours about smelling the popcorn evokes emotion and shared experiences (i.e. the iconic portion). The last bit is coming up with symbologies, which represents the true analogy, and graphing the concept is a big part of this.
These are really right/left brain concepts I am exploring here.
WHT, I would suggest that historical analogy can be a simple but powerful argument for a general audience. This is used effectively by some of the TOD "peak oil overview" presentations, in which the production history of the U.S. is shown to graphically illustrate the up-and-down nature of resource extraction. Once that point is made, extrapolating to the notion of a worldwide peak is a relatively minor step.
This is reasonable, unfortunately the quantitative part is not there. This means we lose any depletion management numbers, except for some heuristic extrapolation from the USA. Cornucupians will try to attack this approach as relying too much on rank empiricism.
I think the best historical analogy we've ever used here at TOD for peak anything is the whale oil story...
The whale story ultimately fails as a great analogy solely for the fact that whales reproduce and the population recovered somewhat. If whales actually went extinct, it would work as a "running out of" example, yet even that is not accurate.
It also reinforces the possibility that an economically exchangeable resource for oil exists. Since petroleum replaced whale oil, the argument would stand that something better will replace oil.
fair points both. however, I know that when I use the whale oil story in class with the entire historical context they get the dynamics (and I emphasize that there is no substitutability, etc.)
I emphasize that there is no substitutability
Prof Goose, this is a bit off-topic, but...I can't stand it. Again - why do you think that wind/solar electricity can't replace oil?
They don't lubricate very well.
Cheers
Lubrication is small enough that it can be replaced with oils synthesized from biomass.
Heck, liquid hydrocarbons can be synthesized from electricity and atmospheric CO2 right now - it's expensive ( roughly $10/gallon), but doable.
Here's a discussion of conventional synthetic motor oil - you begin to see how it can be synthesized from almost any hydrocarbon stock,including biomass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil
It also reinforces the possibility that an economically exchangeable resource for oil exists. Since petroleum replaced whale oil, the argument would stand that something better will replace oil.
WHT, this is a bit off-topic, but...I can't stand it. Again - why do you think that wind/solar electricity can't replace oil?
It can't fly airplanes, for one.
Unless perhaps everyone travels by hot-air balloons.
That's true.
But in the larger picture, air travel isn't important enough to say that oil can't be replaced, right?
Further:
1) air transport is only about 5M B/day
2) at least 60% of air travel is recreational, so the current 5M B/day could fall to 2M B/day, and not affect "commerce as usual"
3) oil production can maintain a level of 10M B/day for 100 years or more
4) kerosene (jet fuel) could be replaced by existing tech over time, even though it would be annoying and expensive - existing tech includes hydrogen, or synthetic fuel - fuel can be synthesized from electricity and atmospheric CO2 even now - it's expensive ( roughly $10/gallon), but doable
5) in 100 years we're likely to have new energy storage tech
6) even if we don't, the combination of higher efficiency air travel, synthetic fuel and high efficiency PV would work pretty well, albeit at a cost per seat-mile that might be, say, twice what it is now.
2M B/day, and not affect "commerce as usual"...............
What a load of tripe.
And what do you think would have happened to the economy to drop air travel use by 3M B/day?
What would be the cost of business travel if passenger occupation dropped by two thirds?
Do you expect airlines would carry on commerce as usual?
What would happen to the tourism industry along with the myriad of supporting roles by other industries and businesses?
Point 3 is as pointless, useless, meaningless and ridiculous a statement you have ever made, I'll trump it and say it can maintain 20M B/day for 200 years or more......so what.
Points 4,5,6 are as naive as ......edit and deleted too nasty.
And what do you think would have happened to the economy to drop air travel use by 3M B/day?
I agree - such a drop isn't likely any time soon. I was addressing a long-term perspective.
What would be the cost of business travel if passenger occupation dropped by two thirds?
Actually, business travel subsidizes recreational travel, so business costs might fall. Air travel has relatively low overhead (no rail or roads to maintain), so air travel could shrink quite a lot with relatively little impact on economies of scale.
Nick, I suspect many here will not reply seriously to your question because they will think you must be a bit of an etc.
However, here goes from one to another, so to speak.
At present, wind and solar constitute an utterly piddling proportion of energy supply. It could be ~sort-of~ argued that that could be vastly scaled up in future years if people just had the vision. Well, putting aside the fact that they won't have the vision...
Firstly that vast scaling up has not yet happened. Things rarely work out as easy as expected. That vast scaling up would require a huge redeployment and retraining of the people to carry it out. It would require a massive investment/ commitment of lots of money and personnel resources. It would require the conversion/replacement of millions of costly machines that are currently oil-powered, along with establishing the alternative supply infrastructures. Again masses of people would have to be retrained in the new tech.
All that might be fine except that there is an ongoing crisis of credit. People and governments can barely afford just ticking over let alone this major investment to replace a setup that has resulted from decades of prior investment.
Add to that the problem of urgency. It's no good envisioning what might be possible for 20 years' time if meanwhile the system has a cash-flow (energy-flow) failure beforehand. And the issue of now is how to substitute for the decline of several percent p.a. from right now.
I don't see that as remotely possible and I'm rather obviously far from the only one here. I think it therefore rests with yourself, to make a case that there is some credible substitution scenario.
You might want to include in it some consideration of the fact of the USK government/s supporting of manufacture of yet more ff-autos, rather than reduction of dependency.
[PS--ccpo's nit about lubrication was merely a piss-take undeserving of a reply and it might be best if you delete your reply to it.]
At present, wind and solar constitute an utterly piddling proportion of energy supply.
Not really. Wind is 2% of US electricity, and 40% of new generation (8.5GW last year).
that vast scaling up has not yet happened.
It has, actually. Wind is very much a large-scale thing now. Growing to, say, 25GW per year would be no big deal.
That vast scaling up would require a huge redeployment and retraining of the people to carry it out.
Not really. We're talking manufacturing and construction. We have plenty of well-trained unemployed in both areas.
It would require the conversion/replacement of millions of costly machines that are currently oil-powered
Manufacturing is mostly electrically powered. The diesel required for the transportation and installation is pretty trivial.
People and governments can barely afford just ticking over let alone this major investment to replace a setup that has resulted from decades of prior investment.
Utilities have good cash flow, and wind has the advantage of very short lead times. Besides, the original question was: "Is there a good substitute for oil?". Whether we're going to have total financial collapse due to bad social structures is a separate question (not that that's likely).
It's no good envisioning what might be possible for 20 years' time if meanwhile the system has a cash-flow (energy-flow) failure beforehand.
For better or worse, we have plenty of coal and natural gas to get us through an electrical generation transition. As far as oil goes, we can easily reduce non-commercial travel (solo commuting, especially) enough to reduce oil consumption by 25%. Commercial travel (trucks and ships) can reduce their consumption overnight by large percentages, just by slowing down. We really don't have a physical shortage of BTUs.
nd the issue of now is how to substitute for the decline of several percent p.a. from right now.
There's no sign of decline yet. We're on an extended plateau, which may last another 3-5 years. After that..things will get harder. Still, there will be more than enough oil to fuel the really essential things.
I don't see that as remotely possible and I'm rather obviously far from the only one here. I think it therefore rests with yourself, to make a case that there is some credible substitution scenario.
The idea that there is no substitute is very much the non-mainstream idea. Nevertheless, I'm happy to make that case: see http://energyfaq.blogspot.com/2008/09/can-everything-be-electrified.html
You might want to include in it some consideration of the fact of the USK government/s supporting of manufacture of yet more ff-autos, rather than reduction of dependency.
The US is pushing it's car industry towards electrification - see articles on the Chevy Volt, money going to other EVs like the Tesla.
ccpo's nit about lubrication ... undeserving of a reply
Good thought. I edited my reply to be purely informational. Even the silliest of comments is a education opportunity for lurkers...
Thanks Nick for taking this trouble to reply. I think best if I just say I (and obviously some others here) don't find much persuasiveness in those rejoinders, and leave it at that for now. (Hopefully a more suitable page will come up before long.)
Well, please feel free to leave comments on my blog. I'd be delighted to have this conversation there, at as much length as you'd like.
One of the reasons I blog, and comment here, is to fine-tune my understanding of what's going on, and I appreciate your and other's responses very much.
I don't like the popcorn anology, as near as I can understand it, because I don't think it is accurate. Your curve still looks like the standard bell curve. I think this is highly inaccurate. I believe we are well past 50 percent depletion. Take Russia for instance.
19 percent and growing! How can a decline rate that high be growing? Easy, in order to keep production rate high they are just punching a lot more holes in their old reservoirs and sucking the oil out a lot faster. This keeps production up but increases the decline rate from all other wells in the same reservoir. This will mean that when Russian oil does start to decline, it will plunge like a rock in a pond.
And this very same thing is happening in most other old reservoirs, especially OPEC reservoirs. Saudi Arabia has decreased their decline rate from an average of 8 percent to 2 percent simply by sucking harder on their old reservoirs.
And theis is why the peak oil curve will look like a shark fin, not the standard bell curve. This will become apparent to the world by no later than 2012.
Ron P.
I lost you with my argument because you are on the production side of the equation. The popcorn popping is only analogizing the process of discovery. I realize that you know that the two processes are distinct but for some reason this point didn't come across.
The basic analogy is this: all the reservoirs lying beneath the surface of the earth are kernels ready to pop. We supply various rates of effort and the reservoirs supply varying degrees of resistance to be discovered. Those represent the internal variations of the popcorn kernels and the external variations of the shells. I find it amazing that there exists that much variation in popcorn such that you get what amounts to the drawn out Logistic curve of a popping time histogram. And we apparently take this for granted everytime we pop corn.
The key take-home message is the fact that no one recognizes that this variation is even more striking in oil discovery than it is with popcorn popping. You think that popcorn kernels are homogeneous? Well, just think of the varying geology, societal technologies, etc. The only thing consistent that ties it together is an overall accelerating rate of effort. Yet, no one wants to analyze the Hubbert discovery peak this way (except for me, that is, IMHO).
Not to say that production doesn't figure into the discussion. But that is a job for the oil shock model, which has some other more appropriate analogies.
WHT
I think your popcorn analogy is good enough to run with. I guess I have been hanging around TOD long enough to have a least a little bit of a clue about discovery peak issues. Even so, this analogy helps.
Thanks, and the graft on accelerating effort would be of interest
So true Leanan. As you are aware, several days ago I prompted readers to post their stories/metaphors about peak oil. This sort of thing typically brings on the chiding from, as I called them, the "pocket protector" crowd. A few posted thoughtful and enlightening metaphors. It takes time and work to create a story that resonates, to create a compelling vision. I grew up on the mantra that ideas are a dime a dozen, it's the follow through that counts. In 2005, after attending the first ASPO-USA conference, I was inspired to take action and do everything I could think of (including running for U.S. Congress) to raise the awareness of this issue among my elected peers. Leaving Denver in 2005, I believed that others were equally inspired and the word would spread like wild-fire. Since then I have spent a great deal of time trying to understand why this fire is choked of fuel.
TOD is largely an echo-chamber--albeit one I have enjoyed immensely. I hope it continues but I also hope it does so with an audience that wants to share the "doing" rather than just the conversation. Nate has taken us beyond the technical discussions of peak oil, to consider the human element. How can we implement that understanding as we attempt to move more people from the spectator stands to the playing field.
The first snow of the season is falling here in Mammoth Lakes. I'm not ready to hang up my hiking boots just yet because the fall (aptly named) is unpredictable. The TOD team is especially needed during these unpredictable times and those of us who feel a kinship here need to ask ourselves what value WE can add to its continued success. My thanks to everyone who has added value to my understanding and knowledge.
With that I will close with an example of a communication tool that is better suited to reaching the "normal folk." http://vimeo.com/6823943
The problem with science and particularly scientific theories on this level is that you need a controlled experiment to test against. Unfortunately, we are in the middle of the biggest controlled experiment known to mankind, and ultimately the only controlled experiment available to test the hypothesis is the one we are in.
Therefore one way to convince people is to use metaphors and analogies of other controlled experiments and compare the trajectories of those against the observations of our own oil depletion path.
I think the video is good but it doesn't help as a management tool as much as a model would. For example, a model with a good analogy can be used directly as a depletion management tool. It could actually be used for prediction and possible outcomes. This could help shape policy. Since have impressive experience in politics, of course you realize the importance of policy in politics. ;)
Well, maybe, but I dunno..."normal folk" don't go to the Corcoran...never mind whether they even have ready access to something like it...they're too busy shuttling their kids to the endless sports meets, or, if the kids are grown up and gone, they're maybe going to football games or (in summer) the cabin up north, or, if they're really poor, they're staying home...
Worse still, according to the video, the picture show appears to be little more than an artistically self-indulgent exercise in equating large scale with iniquity and doom. One perhaps supposes the desired alternative to be, as usual, some sort of mythological ancient agricultural landscape where everything is done on a small scale, in order that the viewer should see it as "humanized", meaning in part that the dirty bits, rampant disease, starvation, and so on, should fall neatly out of the frame. Alas, it just seems so hopelessly fatuous in the face of a population of seven billion and rising with no end in sight. Wherever and whenever populations become large and dense, we seem to encounter large scale.
Indeed, we encountered large scale millennia before the arrival of 'fossil fuels' in the modern sense. So even a stack of emotionalized photographs tall enough to to use as a space-elevator might be unlikely to make it go away. And we should be careful what we wish for - concepts such as "capping global carbon emissions", for example, will become meaningless should global social structures become severely compromised or break down.
My favorite analogy to explain "why" would be a Slurpee analogy.
The first half of a Slurpee is easy to drink as the juice comes right through your straw. We could even share it with someone else with two straws. Eventually the easy to get juice declines, and the ice starts to pack together. There is still plenty of juice, we just have a harder time drinking it. We have to shake the drink up a bit, or poke the straw in multiple times, or stir it, or blow into the straw to break up the ice, or just wait till it melts. It comes out slower no matter what we do, and the juice we unlock is not as tasty as the first juice when we first got the Slurpee.
Very good analogy for some of the details such as reserve growth and secondary recovery. The next issue is how to extend that from the qualitative to the quantitative.
Sorry, joining the conversation late.
Debbie, your request strikes me as no different than people who are looking for the silver bullet that will solve the energy problem itself.
Isn't it possible that changing a societal conversation is really hard especially when there are so many physical structures that support the current one? (i.e. the gasoline is still coming out of the pumps, 401k statements pull people toward a growth economy, etc.)
We could have a wonderful analogy and the distribution and action problems would still be there: how to get it in front of enough people, how to burst the bubble that protects people from understanding it, then how to motivate them to actually do something when they finally do get it.
Getting peak oil widely known will never happen in time and likely never will happen. Wishing it is some other way is like complaining that the basketball hoop is too high or the football field has too many yards. A football field has 100 yards, not one yard more or less. Since those are the rules of the game, the only fulfilling option is not to fight that but instead to embrace it and have fun playing the game as it is constructed.
Not to mention that the shamans who are the ones who have the power to cast magic spells and foretell the rosy future are using all of their powers to conjure up the everlasting growth is good, growth will continue mantra.
Greenspan predicts economic growth to hit 3 percent or higher
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/04/u.s.economy/index.html
There is a picture of Alan Greenspan (worth a look) that reminds me of the Wizard Saruman from Tolkein's Trilogy. The one power Saruman does not lose after his fall is his silver tongue.
Too bad Saruman wasn't the US cental banker, at least he would have made sense.
Greenspan was an incomprehensible hack. I don't know who is worse, him or his toady Bernanke.
I am trying to promote the sharing of ideas. I don't care how hard it is. There is too much moaning and groaning here.
obviously, what you guys need is a two-tier system: scientific explanations for the techies and to stay credible with science, and a translation section for the non-techies.
for instance, what are you really trying to say with the popcorn analogy? for an intuitive understanding, for a non-techy, it has to be both simple and intuitive:
I submit that what you are trying to say with the popcorn analogy is two things:
1. The production of oil starts with a few slow "pops", or finds, then speeds up to a peak where there are so many "pops" they run together, then it slows back down to a few "pops" or finds, every once in a while, until there are no more, or if you keep waiting for more, you spoil the batch.
2. Those last few "pops" don't mean that there's a big peak coming again, they're just small pops.
This works because a) most people think in analogies and b) most people are very familiar with popcorn
You just can't get into detail with analogies, because a) that's not what they're for[analogies are to produce insight, insight has to do with overall process, not detail] and b) no analogy holds up when you get into detail.
I hope that explanation helps you geeks.... :-)
I prefer the mound of dirt or haystack full of basketballs, baseballs and marbles. What you gonna find first? Could be any of the three. But which are you gonna finish finding first? Basketballs, by a wide margin. Next? The vast majority of the baseballs, also by a fair margin, though the actual last field or two to be found might be baseballs. Marbles last.
Make it beach balls in a pile of dirt on the beach... whatever. The nice thing is, it's the same action: digging for something buried. Hell, make it buried treasure. Cannons and treasure chests, cannon balls and goblets then ingots.
Whatever.
Cheers
Yes, that is the best analogy for oil finds.
But it doesn't really bear out. Deffeyes did a study of the size ordering in his earlier book and didn't find much variation. It is perhaps a second-order effect.
The obvious thing is that no one ends up searching for the large fields first -- they find what they find. Of course, the cross-section for larger fields is larger but how does it operationally manifest itself?
The population distribution of cities in the USA maps very well to the size distribution of reservoirs.

Now imagine that you were flying overhead in an airplane and you were searching for cities out the window. I dare say that you would spot all cities of size at least 1000 on first glance. Hence, if you look at the correspondence to oil reservoir sizes, you could then presume that you might also find lots of the medium and up size reservoirs. Once you get those, all the smaller reservoirs don't amount to much cumulative volume in the end.
So I contend that the size analogy is not the best approach. It doesn't hurt to push that, but you can safely ignore it and you still get a good conservative estimate just by using the dispersive discovery (popcorn) model.
I read your response about the popcorn and your critique here. In both cases, "Huh?" was the overriding response. The analogies aren't for you, they're for us.
Trust us when we tell you, simple us good. I don't need to know jack poop about Dispersive Discovery to understand Peak Oil. Point out finding fields is like the frequency of popcorn popping or the liklihood of finding various sizes of needles in a haystack and I know all I need to. I know we've probably found all those basketballs and a lot of baseballs and are in deep doo-doo.
Cheers
There is another factor and that is that the analogies are essentially random search while the real world i.e. the cities and the oil fields are going to be searched according to geographic features (rivers and other reasons to expect large populations for cities) and geologic (reasons to expect oil to be there).
So cities and oil fields won't be searched for randomly. I know that people don't search for oil randomly and the city example you gave I am not sure if you based on a random search or not but if so it is not a fair comparison.
The different sized balls in a sand pile is pure random so other than being a good physical analog it also may not be the best process analog.
All math aside the best we can have is a correlation that could in the city example be very coincidental but in the sand pile example at least the physical comparison makes sense.
On another note.
It would be very interesting if anyone could come up with a guess for how much undiscovered oil might be lurking in Iraq.
I understand that it has never really been fully surveyed.
Neither Phoenix or Las Vegas are where one would expect cities to be, much less 5% to 6% of the US population.
Alan
touche but if you followed the aqueducts?
Granted they are man made but still a clue.
How do you come up with 5-6%???
The coasts are where I would expect to find people and low and behold that is where most are including the great lakes so I don't know where you are coming from except the outliers you mention.
Edit: I miss-interpreted your comment. I see now you meant that at least 5-6% of the population is in Phoenix and vegas and not at all where you would expect based on geography.
But my response here is still valid just not a direct answer to you.
Your response is valid, but irrelevant when discussing outreach to the general public. They simply don't need to understand the explicit point you seem to think is important. All the lay person needs to understand is that most, if not all, of the easy oil has been found. From these simple analogies they can also understand receding horizons because it should be obvious that having one operation with many rigs is more cost effective than having many operations and many rigs.
It simply doesn't matter if they understand the dispersive part. To top it off, many lay people would end up just as confused by the full popcorn analogy as the actual technical explanation.
Besides, dispersive is kind of handled by gravity if you stick with the haystack instead of dirt: most b-balls, baseballs and marbles will predictably be on the floor, being much heavier than the straw.
Cheers
If you Google "Finding Needles in a Haystack" you get a nice analogy in the top 5.
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2712
I have worked on these analogies quite a bit, primarily to verify the math but also to get people to think about the subject.
The large vs small field size issue was discussed on a Dispersive Discovery post

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3287#comment-269887
Note that finding large fields first does not empirically hold, as it is pretty much randomized. Why somebody wants to push what amounts to at best a second-order effect as the principal cause, I don't know why. I guess I am just pointing out the inconvenient truth.
OK. I stand corrected it looks like no matter how the searches are conducted the finds follow the same trend. Interesting.
Kind of like Jed Klampit exploration.
Probably makes sense - even large fields are small in relation to the Earth's land area, and offer few clues to their existence. It appears that in more recent decades the Actual moved a little closer to the Large Fields First line, which might be the influence of newer technologies. Seems like a small movement for all of that - still not much better than poking holes at random.
Deffeyes used the analogy of throwing darts at a dartboard.
I suppose speaking like a caveman works wonders with a segment of the population.
Us no understand what you talk.
I tend not to trust people who turn a typo into a lack of intelligence. It takes a degree of meanness.
Cheers
OK, I am sorry. Typos are hard to detect when you speak in a colloquialism.