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110 comments on Drumbeat: November 14, 2009
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110 comments on Drumbeat: November 14, 2009
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GAIA Host Collective
How does simply raising the gasoline tax not accomplish the same thing?
Set the tax high enough to maintain the previous/expected/needed revenue stream from given a national automobile population made up of cars which get similar gas mileage to the Toyota Prius.
Unfair to folks driving cars that don't get the gas mileage of a Prius?
Too bad, too sad...the dual goals of the tax would be to pay for road maintenance (and contribute to the general fund) and provide incentives for folks to buy cars with gas mileage which is equivalent to a Prius(or better).
I've heard plenty of folks say 'put out the right incentives, and the free market will take care of the rest'. Well, wrt to the dual goals of collecting revenue and increasing auto gas mileage in general, the above idea would work just like that.
And if folks can't afford to play, then they ride the bus, rent Zip cars, bicycle, carpool, or do without.
Win-Win-Win
The real purpose of the mileage tax (as envisioned in the US, anyway) is not to discourage driving, nor to encourage fuel efficiency. It's to get money to maintain the highway system. Fuel-efficient cars still cause wear and tear on the roads.
Now, you and I may think the highway system is doomed, or should be, but there is no way mainstream America or our politicians would even consider that. They need money to maintain our roads and bridges. Traditionally, that's been through the fuel tax. People are looking ahead to the future - when most cars are electric or some such thing, and a Prius is a gas-guzzler, if it still exists. How do you get money to maintain the roads and bridges then? That's what the mileage tax is about.
Fuel-efficient cars still cause wear and tears on the roads
Actually, not so.
Wear & tear is proportional to the 4th or 5th power of the axle weight (engineering sources vary, with 4th power more common).
In practice, wear & tear of roads is caused by trucks, buses and salt/freeze/thaw cycles (and snow chains where allowed). City civil engineers look at the truck & bus traffic and ignore passenger car traffic (perhaps Hummers & Expeditions should be counted) when figuring out future needs for repairs.
Attaching a meter to EVs and plug-in hybrids would be a simpler way of taxing them. Read and taxed once a year.
Best Hopes for NO taxes on bicycles :-)
Alan
That is simply not true. Even if no trucks or buses used the roads, they would still need to be maintained.
And city roads are very different from highways.
I disagree. A case in point.
One of the very few highways where heavy trucks are banned is the Natchez Trace Parkway (a linear National Park). A limited access 2 lane highway with some sections built by the WPA in the 1930s. Fairly heavy local auto & pick-up traffic plus tourists.
I have taken it many times over the last 3 1/2 decades and never seen any potholes or road maintenance being done. Once asked a park ranger and he said that "it held up pretty good".
Where the asphalt does get thin (mainly aggregate showing) it does so evenly and not just in two tracks where tires wear. My conclusion is that environmental exposure is oxidizing or washing away the asphalt.
Alan
PS: I am aware that acceleration & braking affect wear on a street (in New Orleans bus stops are poured in concrete while the rest of the road is asphalt), but I am not aware that speed per se increased wear. Cars traveling at 25 mph should create as much wear & tear as those going 50 mph or 80 mph AFAIK. Weight is the primary determinant.
Weight, speed, and distance traveled all contribute to wear. I suppose speed doesn't matter much to city engineers, because city roads are usually low-speed.
FWIW, charging per mile is supposed to make sure trucks pay more than they do; supporters of the mileage tax argue that trucks aren't paying in proportion to the damage they cause.
Leanan,
Roads are designed for a certain life calculated in 18,000 lb. single axle, dual wheel truck trip equivalents.
6250 Hummer trips = 1 reference 18,000 truck trip
A little useful information from my Flexible Pavement Design notes.
In other words, restricting traffic to light vehicles multiplies a road's potential service life by a factor of 100 - 500.
Hamster
That could well be true, but that doesn't change the fact that roads must be paid for, and they cost money to build and maintain...no matter what vehicles are using them. Even before cars were invented, roads had to be built and maintained. (Much less money was required, of course.)
they cost money to build and maintain...no matter what vehicles are using them.
Car, pick-up and SUV only roads would require almost no maintenance (if salt is not used extensively) if built to current standards.
Best Hopes for lighter and fewer trucks,
Alan
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that there are some roads in Australia that are for trucks only, and taxed separately. Speed limit is low, but loads can be massive.
Interesting. I suppose that's another tack we could take. We actually could build roads that stood up to truck traffic. It would be more expensive and more time-consuming, but it could be done. And it might be argued that, in a peak oil world, trucks are more essential than passenger vehicles.
Roads will always require maintenance. Even if no one uses them, they won't last forever. New York state has some roads where trucks are not allowed, such as the Taconic State Parkway. Until 2000, even pickup trucks were not allowed. Amazingly, they still require maintenance. New York State has spent millions on it.
I spent a half hour with Google (i.e. not an exhaustive search) and found speed to have an effect on bridges and the rate with which speed bumps wear out, but it was not noted as being a factor for wear & tear for general streets and highways. Some interesting information in the new "double wide" heavy truck tires (which reduce truck fuel consumption by 1% to 2% vs. dual tractor trailer tires).
Any links ?
Civil Engineering is not my field,
Alan
Yes, tires can make a big difference, too. Some areas even ban the use of certain kinds of tires because they are so damaging to the roads. Even if they are on small cars.
From a comment Björn Abelsson posted at Truth About Cars:
(You may know him. I think he works a lot on rail projects.)
One section of the Garden State Parkway in NJ used to ban trucks and buses. That section carried an enormous volume of commuter traffic, and IIRC, the reason for banning large vehicles was that "all car" traffic flowed much more smoothly. A side-effect was that the roadway required much less maintenance than sections where trucks were allowed.
As Alan correctly notes elsewhere, damage goes up as the fourth power of the weight increase on an axle (ie, double the weight on the axle, damage goes up by a factor of 16). To the best of my knowledge, no state imposes taxes or fees on large vehicles in proportion to the damage they do to the roads. The usual arguments made by the trucking industry in opposition to proportional taxes/fees is that (a) the costs will simply be passed on to consumers, so general tax revenue should be used instead, or (b) in the case of increased fees, trucking companies will relocate so they can register their vehicles in states with lower fees, costing lots of jobs.
The per mile tax has perverse effects on efficiency. If they are gonna make we pay $x to drive a mile I'm gonna make sure it is in a Hummer. And the guy who drives the same make of vehicle with a featherlight foot probably uses 20-30% less fuel than the heavyfooted driver. I bet the relative wear on the roadway and costs for emergency and policing services probably varies by several times that. So a per mile tax is really a subsidy for gas hogs. Can you imagine making someone with an electric Aptera pay as much as the guy in a Ford Epedition. These sort of things need to be resisted as the evil that they are.
Of course raising the gas tax to cover it has to be made adaptable. Rather than increasing the tax by X per gallon, the size of the tax needs to be automatically adjustable, if less gas is burned than the tax rate goes up next month or next quarter. But our foolish legal and bureaucratic system seems to be uniquely alergic to adaptive policy.
The fuel tax was supposed to be a substitute for taxing vehicles by the damage they do to the roads. Higher weight, higher speed, more distance traveled = more fuel consumed.
But it turns out that a fuel tax puts a disproportionate burden on cars.
I don't see this as that big an issue, because in the end, it's the consumers who pays anyway. At least, it's not worth the increase in complexity actually taxing vehicles by the damage they do to the roads would require. Several states have tried it, and the result was either not worth it because of the expense of monitoring and enforcing it, or mass cheating. Classic Tainter, really.
I don't know about the difficulties of getting it roughly right, but if road construction/maintenence is a big issue, this represents a severe distortion of the market. By that I mean that economic decisions that are far from optimal are being made because the price signals are grossly wrong. Perhaps more axles (or more tires per axle) is an optimal solution. By why would the market provide this, unless the price signal is there.
Probably the biggest obstacle is not technical, but political. Those who are in effect getting a substantial subsidy will raise a huge stink if you try to make them pay.
If you're really interested in this issue, you might be interested in this report. It's pretty old, but it explains some of the issues involved in highway user fees.
http://archive.gao.gov/t2pbat3/151856.pdf
Why do fuel taxes not work for this?
According to Ed Tennyson, the increase to the 80,000 lb limit "appeared" in the conference committee reconciliation (between House & Senate) at the last minute without one word of debate, expert testimony, etc.
Simply rolling back the weight limit to 65,000 lb for any highway receiving federal aid would significantly reduce damage and extend road lifespans.
And make rail a bit more competitive with trucking.
Best Hopes for Lower weight limits,
Alan
Maybe on a smooth surface, I live about 500 meters from a bumpy parkway and I can tell if something is moving fast when it hits a bump -- I can feel it, lots of kinetic energy being transferred up to those bumps. If something fast and heavy hits a bump I hear creaks and pops in my house.
Yes, road surface can make a difference with dynamic loads. I once saw an elevated highway where a "ramp effect" at a rough joint was vaulting vehicles ever so slightly airborne. The thump when they landed ended up collapsing that section. It only fell a few inches, but the highway had to be closed while repairs were made.
Another issue is "pavement polishing." The friction between the tires and the pavement makes the surface so smooth that skidding becomes a problem. This most often happens on high-speed curves. The fix is resurfacing, or sometimes "gnurling" - they grind grooves into the pavement to make it rougher.
This is one reason I find the idea of a solar-panel road utterly ridiculous. Yes, I know, they say the glass surface of the road will be textured so cars don't skid. But how long is that going to last?
(The other reason I find it ridiculous is water. Water is extremely destructive, and anyone who can find a way to seal joints to keep it out of roads and bridges and patent it will never have to work again. Good luck trying to keep it out of a road that's basically a glass box of electronics.)
While I agree that the idea of paving roads with PV is a bad idea, there's still the overhead option. Adding PV covered roofs over the freeways would also make it possible to catch the rain/snow before it hits the pavement. This would vastly reduce the wear from rain and make it possible to forgo the use of salt on the roads during the winter. Winter commuting would be much safer as well.
You can send my gazillion bucks for this great "new" idea thru PayPal to my e-mail address...
E. Swanson
That is the theory behind covered bridges.
The problem is that it's wicked expensive to build roofs over the roads (never mind solar-panel roofs).
The solar road people seem to be arguing that solar-panel roads will be cost-competitive with regular roads because they'll last longer. I think they're deluding themselves. As originally conceived, our highways were supposed to last for 20 or 30 or 40 years, too. Reality proved recalcitrant, as it often does.
The M6 Toll road round the North end of Birmingham in the UK gives a pointer to the real financial relative cost of HGVs (heavy trucks) as opposed to lighter vehicles, in terms of road wear.
The M6 Toll is the UK's first privately constructed, maintained and operated motorway. Up to its construction all motorways in the UK were constructed, maintained and operated by the government using tax revenues, and did not attract tolls except in the case of some tunnels and bridges.
When the M6 Toll was opened in c.2003 the price charged for an HGV was set slightly too high to make it economic for HGVs to use it. This is believed to have been a deliberate policy on behalf of the operators of the M6 toll. One can assume that they did their sums and decided that it was more profitable to discourage HGVs from using their shiny new road than collecting their tolls.
The original reason for constructing the M6 toll was to relieve the older M6 through Birmingham, which was grossly overloaded with both cars and HGVs. The older M6 nowadays still has a large number of HGVs using it. They can clearly be seen from the train below! They can't all be moving around within Birmingham itself, so one can only assume that they are still avoiding the M6 toll.
Interestingly, the M6 toll operators appear to want to discourage motorcyclists as well, charging them a fee when most other toll operators in the UK don't.
http://www.m6toll.co.uk/default.asp?mainmenuid=1
http://www.abd.org.uk/local/m6_toll.htm
sf
Interesting, and logical.
If the future fleet were to be very efficient gasoline/diesel-fueled vehicles, I would still submit that raising the per-gallon tax could normalize the revenue. If the vehicle fleet today gets an average of 'x' MPG and we pay 'Y' amount of taxes per gallon, and the vehicle fleet 10 years in the future gets '2x' MPG...then the government charges '2Y' amount of money per gallon, and everything is even.
However, I can see that all-electric vehicles upset that applecart.
One potential fix would be to require specially metered outlets at stations, at homes, and at businesses, which would charge the customer the desired amount of tax per unit of electrical energy. The EVs on-board computer could participate and talk to the utility's computers and authenticate that the electricity drawn was being put into an EV battery.
Of course a per-unit of distance tax would work as well...were it not for the high likelihood that most Americans would be vehemently against Big Brother potentially monitoring and tracking how much, where, when, and how fast they drive. The protests would dwarf anything seen to-date, and I would be in the protesting camp on this.
I would not personally mind a method which purely tracks mileage (maybe downloaded once per year somehow)...but I think an on-board near-real-time GPS tracking contraption opens he doors to too much loss of privacy.
I agree, it's creepy. There have already been cases where people lost their jobs or their divorce cases based on what their EZ-Pass showed about their movements. But it doesn't stop people from using EZ-Pass.
Personally, I think it will be difficult if not impossible to impose a big new tax like a mileage tax in the current environment.
It's interesting to look back on how the gas tax was passed. It was of course opposed by many, including farmers and Big Oil. But it seemed like such a small amount, and gas prices were dropping rapidly at the time, due to new technology, so it didn't seem particularly onerous. But probably the biggest factor was that people genuinely wanted highways - including the farmers.
I'm not sure it's possible to get that kind of support today. We've already had some fairly dramatic infrastructure failures, but people still aren't exactly clamoring for more transportation funding.
But it doesn't stop people from using EZ-Pass.
Use of the EZ-Pass and similar devices is no longer voluntary. If you're not a very-occasional visitor traveling in the wee hours, it's likely to be forced in at least two ways, depending on time and location, and it's likely to be "encouraged" in a third way:
1. Gargantuan lines in the cash lanes - there simply aren't that many hours in the day. The Illinois tollway built huge side-lanes in which to store endlessly waiting out-of-town drivers and their cars.
2. Huge charges for paying cash - the Illinois tollway charges double. For any sort of regular user - the person perhaps most likely to suffer adverse consequences of 24/7/365 snooping - that adds up to real money in a hurry.
3. Persnickety demands for "exact change" in coins only and in decidedly non-round amounts. This is not so much coercive as just icing on the cake, designed to get the point across.
And GPS tracking, of course, is a whole lot more comprehensive. What's really creepy is people's blind trust in power-mad government.
Ah, yes...the 40 cent tolls in Illinois. Conveniently located every three miles. I have fond memories of desperately searching my car for exactly One quarter, One nickel and One dime, every five minutes as angry commuters honked behind me.
They want to make the tax location and time dependent, so if you drive in the morning or evening rush you need to pay more. Also going into highly congested areas will probably be priced higher.
I don't know how easily the gps system can be jammed, but if it can I would expect this might happen
Netherland is a small country and raising tax will just make people fueling their car in Belgium or Germany, resulting in tax loses...
On the other hand, I wonder if it will be legal for Netherland to tax people for their travel outside their country. Most Dutch travel a lot out of Netherland and in summer the go to South France, Spain or Italy...
Note that the propose system offer people buying such equipped car a 25% discount on the car price (no tax). On a 20,000 euro car, its a 5,000 euro discount...pretty good. And driving 20,000 km a year (quite a lot for Europe) would be 600 euro of tax a year, so the car owner will save money on the car for over 9 years.
Given the time value of money that would probably hold for the lifetime of the vehicle. Think of this as banking the 5000 euro in a high interest savings account, and paying the tax with the interest/principal, it will take much longer than nine years to drain the account.
In the UK congestion charging is done by registration plate recognition cameras, if you don't pay the zone entry charge by midnight you get a hefty fine many times the congestion charge - the same cameras are also used to fine speeding drivers since there is a minimum time between two cameras on the same stretch of road to be within the law.
1984 comes to mind!
Keep in mind what this will do to the tens of millions of people who live at or near the poverty level. They will never be buying a Prius, most can't even afford a cheap new car. There are many poor working Americans who live far from their jobs because they can't afford the housing prices in the areas close to their jobs. A mileage tax would be a huge problem for them.
A common theme throughout TOD discussions is forgetting about the working poor when we talk about transportation solutions. We tend to focus on technology. But without looking at what people can afford, we sometimes underestimate what technology can accomplish. Gas tax increases and mileage taxes hit the poor extremely hard. They won't be the people who benefit from new technology like Hybrids and Electric Vehicles that substantially reduce fuel expense. They will continue to drive the older generation vehicles for years to come.
Unfortunately, because of the greed of the super rich, this segment of the population is growing larger every year. The thought of the poor being further taxed so those with a Mercedes can have a smoother ride, galls me. (No offense to those who own a Mercedes who are good people, you know who you are:)
I hate to say it, because I was in the transportation industry, but a mileage tax should be restricted to vehicles with a GVWR (total vehicle, passenger and cargo weight) of over 10,000 pounds. That tax should go up on a log scale to account for the rate of damage caused by increasingly heavier vehicles. This is already done with annual registration fees, but, in my opinion, the rate of fee increase is not fast enough. We should also have a purchase tax on vehicles that is not a fixed percentage. The higher the vehicle price, the higher the tax rate.
There is an easy obvious solution for that. Target some or all of the new revenue to tax relief for the poor (if they don't pay taxes because they don't make enough, give it to them in cash). Of course this is anthema to the free market ideologues, but the progressivity/regressivity of the entire system can and should be adjusted, not the progressivity/regressivity of the individual pieces.
For instance, it would be a big improvement if we cut federal income taxes -especially on the lower incomes, and made up for the revenue with a carbon tax. Because it would reduce our import oil bill, a revenue neutral change like that would make the nation richer. The only thing preventing such logical choices like this are ideological rigidity.
Rapidly/explosively expanding mass transit, especially rail based, would help many. For others, dislocation will be the price to be paid.
On the streetcar, talked with a tourist who works in a dental office and commutes 40 miles each way to her job in central Massachusetts. Economically car, minimal traffic make it practical from her POV.
Post-Peak Oil, a dentist may be able to afford such a commute, at least for a few years, but not those below that income level, a new job or new home will be required.
Post-Peak Oil, many will suffer, but the Suburban/Exurban working poor most of all (as a group).
Reality.
Subsidizing dental assistants in their 40 mile commutes will not be good public policy.
Alan