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23 comments on Sen Clinton's speech to the CleanTech Venture Forum

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veganmaster on October 26, 2005 - 1:05pm Permalink | Subthread | Comments top
"the perception that oil companies are making windfall profits and gouging the consumers"

It is not perception, but fact.  The major oil companies are posting RECORD profits.  Why should the welfare-fed corporations get to steal so much money from taxpayers?  I mean the entire Bush record is one of increasing corporate profts at the expense of 99.9% of the people and the environment.  But maybe you intend to show that the profits are not so much coming from consumer gouging, but in the form of government giveaways?  Either way it is the taxpayer getting reamed.

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Twilight on October 26, 2005 - 2:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Agreed - using the word perception is an attempt at spin.  Unlike most of the things contributors try so hard to quantify on TOD, the issue of whether the big oil companies made huge profits or not is quite easy to quantify.  And from what I'm reading, they certainly appear to have.  And of course this is not a problem at all, because if you don't like it you can just stop using their products.

Do I believe that there are real supply issues?  Of course, and I'm trying hard to quantify when and how significant the impacts of this will be on my life.

Do I also believe that those in a position of power will take whatever advantage they can of the situation, and that this will not be prevented, but actually encouraged by others who want in on the feast?  Yup.  There are no limits to greed.

I'm not expecting any enlightend policy proposals out of either party anymore, and probably won't waste my time reading it, but let's not pretend there isn't a problem.  And if we are to start dragging out dumb energy policy ideas, I'm betting I could come up with one or two from the right that would qualify......  

This entire thread smells to me like one with the potential to stir people up, piss people off, and accomplish nothing worthwhile.  It will be a good test of the tolerance and maturity of the TOD community.

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Yankee on October 26, 2005 - 2:19pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Fine. The oil companies are making a big profit. I won't argue with that.

What I will argue with, and what I hope to take up soon, is that this is the end-all-and-be-all of our problems. Many politicians that I've seen seem to think high oil prices are due to the oil companies gouging the consumer, which I hope we all know is NOT the only problem (or even the crux of the problem, in my opinion). Furthermore, many Democrats seem to believe that our primary priority should be investigating the oil companies and penalizing them if necessary, in order to lower the price for the consumer.

I feel very strongly that it is totally counterproductive to try to lower the cost of gasoline for the consumer. Just the other day many TODers favorably discussed the possibility of a gas tax, which would RAISE the cost of gasoline for the consumer. I would also be in favor of a gasoline tax. (Natural gas may be a different issue, since as someone pointed out the other day, high gasoline prices are a pain, but high natural gas prices cause deaths.)

This thread is not an attempt to piss people off. It's an attempt to discuss why the political response to high energy prices is off-target and frustrating. It's an attempt to get at the real energy issues that governments should be addressing--even if that's a pipe dream right now.

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Twilight on October 26, 2005 - 3:21pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
There are no solutions to the problem that do not involve fundamental changes to our way of life - essentially requiring big sacrifices.  The public has been kept in the dark about the whole issue (intentionally, I think), although many people in positions of power are obviously aware of it.  We've gone so far down the wrong road, that to suddenly announce that we've made a big mistake and everyone is going to have to pay for it is just too much to ask from politicians.  Perhaps the most disgusting thing about politicians is that they are mostly a reflection of ourselves.  

Our entire nation was built with cheap and abundant resources, from wood to coal to oil and NG.  Our way of life depends on it - this is what I believe Cheney meant when he said "The American way of life is not negotiable."   Thus we have decided to use all our wealth power to control as much of the remaining petroleum sources as we can.  I'm trying to imagine an alternate scenario where we mobilize our nation to create a new energy infrastructure that is more sustainable.  We all sacrifice for the good of the nation - it becomes our national mission.  There are incentives to train more Engineers and Scientists, funding for research, etc.  We forgo tax cuts, prevent corporations from incorporating on Caribbean islands to escape their tax responsibilities.  We rebuild the rail systems and develop agricultural practices that do not require so much oil & NG of transportation.

Nah - that would be too much work.  It would take leadership and a population convinced that such a goal is needed and worthwhile and attainable.  The latter requires that we answer some of the very questions that people on this site are wrestling with - how long do we have?  It seems like it is much easier to put a gun to the head of those that have the oil and take it - although in the end it will fail.  Rather than act, we can blame someone - either the oil companies, or the environmentalist who won't let us build refineries, or the foreigners who want to take that oil that is ours by birthright, or whoever.  And if it's too late, then those who can will just take as much as they can before the party's over, and hope that insulates them from the impacts.  

Taken as a group, we get the government we deserve, and they're out there telling us just what we want to hear.  Everything's fine, it's not your fault, go shopping (here's some money, you can pay it back later).  I have this idea that there was once an idea of a common good in this country, but I wonder now if it was just another national myth.  We won't have a responsible government until we have responsible populace that demands it.  There is no point in looking there for answers until then.  

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step back on October 26, 2005 - 4:03pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Taken as a group, we get the government we deserve, and they're out there telling us just what we want to hear.  Everything's fine, it's not your fault, go shopping (here's some money, you can pay it back later).

I disagree with the concept of blaming the victims (us) by saying, "Well there you go again, heh heh, you deserved it, you had it coming."

Each of us was born into it.
We didn't ask for it.
We were born.
There it was. The infrastructure was already in place.

You can spend your whole life being a child and "blaming" someone, like your parents or yourself.

Alternatively, you can accept the cards that were dealt to you and do the best you can with that hand of cards. You are not going to get another one.

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Twilight on October 26, 2005 - 6:14pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
That is why I said "as a group".  Individually, we may act differently.  Those who frequent a site such as this are likely more open to alternate ideas.  But as a society we crucify any politician who tells us the hard truth, no matter how obvious.  We cannot now expect the politicians selected out by this system to now turn around and do otherwise.  That cannot happen until large portions of the voters are ready to hear it - and THAT will probably take a bunch misery to occur.

And I'm not advocating wringing my hands and blaming myself or others at all - I'm trying to figure out how best to prepare.  I just wouldn't be surprised at the public policy approaches that emerge, or expect much real help from that quarter.  They're pretty predictable.

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step back on October 26, 2005 - 7:10pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
What if teachers in schools started teaching kids about
PEAK WOOD
http://anthropik.com/2005/10/peak-wood/

It would be a first step in getting the voting public to come to grips with Peak Oil

(First Graders do bring their homework home !!!)

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JRS23 on October 26, 2005 - 9:33pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think this would be a great idea. However too many parents would complain about the brainwashing and liberal propaganda taught in the public schools. First grade wouldn't be a good level to teach it either. As soon the children come home and talk about peak oil their parents will "fix" their beliefs and any benefit would be lost.

I think peak oil should be tied in with studies done on bacteria cultures in petri dishes with substrate. The bacteria with double until about the 7th generation when almost all the substrate has been consumed. The bacteria are oblivious to the pending doom and it is too late. There is a major die off; if not total extinction of the culture.

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Gloomy on October 27, 2005 - 2:46pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
That would be a real precedent.

Every education system keeps deep silence or at most mentions reluctantly about the various ecological disasters caused by humans in the course of history.

On one side the child is taught that human activity (e.g. economy) is "good" and the child sees that it is good by getting to know the plenty of wonderful civilization advances. How do you effectively explain the same child that the same human activity can actually be bad? Can being fed and warm be bad?

Well there are those ecological courses at school but they look more like the rituals we played in the distant past to mercify gods - hug a tree, show some concern about the environment and then go on the way you did before.

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tom deplume on October 27, 2005 - 3:20pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think teaching kids that every choice involves trade-offs from the start would teach them to ask better questions instead of accepting rote answers about life.  
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Stuart Staniford on October 28, 2005 - 1:43am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I have to defend the honor of my middle school Environmental Studies teacher (this is back in the late 70s). I can still very vividly recall the class where he went over the pond and the lilypad, and the connection to human population growth. Can't remember his name or anything else we studied in that class, but I remember that part. I think he even told us it was something we were going to have to deal with in our lifetimes. So at least some teachers have been doing their job, and I personally have no excuse of not having been warned of the potential hazards of exponential growth in a finite system.
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