Thursday Open Thread...
Posted by Prof. Goose on February 2, 2006 - 9:21pm
Simply because it's just so thread-a-licious...
...but if you want a topic, how about this: "normative v. empirical, are they mutually exclusive?" (It just so happens this was one of the topics my grad students had to handle this week...but I would like to hear what you all think, especially with regard to the peak oil/energy framework.)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/2/1/1875/40557
Based on TOD's coverage of same.
I copied these two images the other day:
This one was from TOD:
and this was from PeakOil.com:
They look like identical charts apart from the numbers at the side.
Which one is 'right'?
Here's the link to the PeakOil.com chart, if it helps:
http://www.advfn.com/p.php?pid=staticchart&s=NYM^CLJ6&p=0&t=7&dm=0&vol=0&cb= 1138080214
Aug - Q, Sep - U, Oct -V, Nov -X, Dec - Z
April crude is about 75 cents higher than march -seasonal factors, etc (Natural gas months are very different depending on time of year, crude are very similar)
or perhaps they are looking at April? can you dig out the url from the source?
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fi-powerprop2feb02,0,1984870.story?coll=la-headlin es-frontpage
http://www.ag.ca.gov/initiatives/pdf/sa2005rf0138_2-s.pdf
Pretty technical, but basically it sets up a board to distribute the funds, and lays taxes on all private oil production according to the following scale:
Successful engineering projects are characterized by a lot of passion in one or more key project leaders. When that passion is missing, it becomes a mechanical exercise in number crunching or software coding and a morass of mutual "I am waiting for this" excuses. Nothing gets done. The knowledge of peak oil is sapping the passion out of my projects. How are you guys coping with this? How do you deal with your vice presidents and marketing directors and others that can not afford to professionally acknowledge expensive energy?
Societies do not go backwards well. Progress, both for the many economic chairlegs we are already missing that requires it, and for the psychological effects a lack of it would have on humanity (you think psychotropics are overprescribed NOW?!?!?!?!), well, it's kind of important...
I have also been trying to think of an analogue of other past societies (going back to the black death post) that actually saw the precipice coming. Is it the case that they just ran faster toward it, or can we come up with any that actually put on the brakes in time before going to their own destruction, even if it was a slow jaunt down a hill?
An Anatomy of the Prehistoric Rapa Nui Cultural Collapse describes a two-phase collapse:
Several lines of evidence now support a two stage prehistoric cultural collapse. The evidence comes from the statue quarry at Rano Raraku, the roadways leading from it, and two types or patterns of ahu recycling and construction.
The first stage seems to have lasted no longer than a generation or two, perhaps 50 years, during which the Islanders themselves knew they were in short supply of resources, in particular, trees. The traditional culture tenuously held on to the previous habits but knew they were going to have to prepare for a new order. Culturally unable to reforest, priorities redefined statue form, statue moving, ahu construction, and disposal of the dead. At least two major ahu illustrate large scale cooperation in their new constructions though the workmanship is very poor and incomplete. Several others show a similar reduction in workmanship but maintain large scale cooperation.
The second stage seems characterized by a free-fall collapse in cultural organization, dominated by conflict, the formation of discrete districts, territorial to the family level, warfare, and ultimately cannibalism. It is proposed that this change reduced population to a level commensurate with the carrying capacity of the defoliated island, slowly leaching and eroding soils. Small family-built semipyramidal ahu became the norm and multiple whole body burials were inserted. The Tangatamanu cult resulted from the cultural need for a time of truce, an annual temporary escape from what may have been the constant threat of revenge warfare.
Interesting that the first phase of collapse was marked by greater social organization - larger groups working together - but poorer results (due to the lack of resources). It ties in nicely with Tainter's findings of more centralized control as collapse approaches.
One things for sure its an exciting time to be alive:)
Indeed. I have personally lost all interest in work, except as as a place to collect a paycheck. I do just enough to not get by, nothing more. Instead, I spend a good deal of my time reading TOD and similar sites (Energy Bulletin, Kunstler, etc), doing research, pricing PV arrays, and occasionally ordering survival gear (like a PV/crank powered radio) online, and trying not to get overly pessimistic.
I've about given up on trying to wake the sleepers from their self-induced trance. Some get it. Most are clueless. Others become antagonistic when presented with facts. My wife, god bless her soul, is actually excited about the prospects of a different society, a different way of living, and helps me plan for the days ahead by reading up on canning, planting fruit trees, and buying books.
My father-in-law who is a retired (and enlightened) minister says we are headed for another Dark Ages. It not just what we belive that is the problem. It is how those belief's are being used by powerful people for gain. Maybe weave that concept into your future post.
My father-in-law and I have amazing discussions with great consensus, even though he comes from a very spritual viewpoint and I from a logical scientific one. They are not mutually exclusive but are made to seem that way by many Conservative Christians today.
I have found a lot more freedom and happiness the past few years by trying to get rid of "stuff" and make my life simpler. Planting a garden, playing with the cats, riding my bike etc. Can't claim perfection, but it seems like the right path. BTW I am a scientist, not really attached to any particular religous viewpoint.
I'm a software engineer for a company that writes software for a primary industry (meat processing). Since our customers are less likely to disappear in a slow squeeze, I'm not too pessimistic about the job. I'm also one of three managers under the two directors out of a company of 20, so I'd like to think that I'll still be here even if half the company disappears.
I have to try hard to keep focussed on doing the job because I'm reliant on the wage (and the 6.5% of the annual profits) to help me carry out some plans to mitigate the Peak Oil effects (solar power, insulate our home more, buy fruit trees for the garden, etc.). That's what driving me now. I want to make sure that we cushion any post-peak effects.
The clients, the end users, generally want more insulation. They're starting to get that. But the builders aren't there yet, because the insulation costs more every day.
I do a lot of retrofit, so potentially, I could have a lot of work as people modify their buildings to adapt to the slow squeeze (or whatever). But I wonder if it will really happen that way, or if people will modify on the cheap.
I don't think there's going to be anyplace to hide. I think that eventually we will all be forced to become political. Otherwise, we'll all just go down killing each other. There's no other way out. I'm not advocating some particular political platform---except for the idea that we don't kill each other for oil or follow those who propose that we do. But those that do rule the roost for now, and I believe have seen but just the beginning. If there weren't such a hostile political climate, adapting to peak oil could even be fun. It's the mutual slaughter stuff that is hard to get used to.
I hope it helps you as much as it helped me.
I don't really have an answer for you except to say you are not alone. Probably most people here have struggled with it and found the solution that best fits their perspective, or are still fumbling for it. Struggle with the problem, things will clarify and you will begin to see positive actions to take.
Being self employed I have a lesser problem, but my income has diminished. I'm adapting by growing my own food, saving seeds, learning skills that will be useful like medicinal use of herbs. I've been augmenting money by spread betting on financials, can be up and down but overall positive so far, and it's something I can do from anywhere while the net and financial markets exist ( = as long as money is relevant).
You must find the path that best fits you and your family responsibilities. If you are free of ties you could change everything, even if you have a family you could join a sustainable community (or even start one if you live in or move to a viable location).
First you need to decide how bad and how fast YOU think things might change. If you think slowly and / or softly then you will probably have time to change once things begin. If you think things could be hard and fast then perhaps it is time for a more serious think, for the start could be quite soon.
I believe that anyone who is liquidating their current lifestyle to prepare for a future of certain collapse is taking a massive risk. To the degree that their are others, particularly children, involved in these decisions, it could be highly destructive and irresponsible. I am open to the counter argument that doing nothing is equally irresponsible. I don't belong to either camp. My point is that the future is uncertain and there is a chance you find yourself living in a hole with a stack of gold coins and canned food for the next twenty years while the world somehow adapts.
Some commenters seem to say that they are becoming unable to perform in their job because of fears of imminent doom from peak oil or climate change. analyse the situation. One one hand, I think this is like any other distraction that comes from outside; family problems, money, etc. Sometimes, you just have to leave them outside the door. I would suggest, without evidence or reference to any specific case, that the cause could be underlying psychological factors as much as reality.
One the other hand, there are major changes facing us in the future. Based on your perceptions of the probability of various scenarios, it is rational to adjust your lifestyle to be best prepared. There are some steps that are gradual. Moving investments towards alternative energies, taking classes or new job opportunities that you are confident have a future, balancing your debt levels, etc.
I don't think worrying for the sake of it has much benefit. I believe that many of those that run for the hills will crawl back later, may regretting it. No one knows what will happen and making life changing decisons based on a hunch is a big bet. Maybe you will be right, but maybe you will be wrong.
I read this site everyday. I have been moving my career and lifestyle gradually in a direction that can be sustained post peak, but will also keep me happy if we transition to a new fuel system and everything turns out OK. I don't know what will happen and don't write off collapse. But I am doing what I can to adapt and don't spend too much time fretting.
Francois,
It sounds like you are going through a psychological phase.
Sure, the books tell you about denial, anger, depression and acceptance ... but that's mostly book theory. Everybody goes through their own private hells and coping mechanisms.
OK so you are bummed out today and feel there is no future.
This too will pass.
This world is filled with many parallel universes.
Today, as you moped over Peak Oil,
Somewhere in a hospital, a young mother gave birth to a baby. It was a most joyous moment filled with hope for a bright future and dreams about all sorts of possibilities.
Across the hall, in another ward, an old man took his last draw of air as pneumonia ravaged and drowned his lungs. It was an ugly and horrid day, finally ended in grief and a last gasp realization that this whole life is nothing but a brief joke (on us). Around the corner, a surgeon was stitching up a gang member's knife wound. It was a violent day, full of hate, bitterness and maybe understanding about what it means to have bought in to the herd mentality of the gang.
So what does that have to do with your loss of passion for engineering?
Maybe tomorrow, you will wake up with a new design etched into the back of your head, a way to save the world. Don't give up on us yet. There are many parallel universes and many parallel answers.
I do think people need to take stock of where they are at with their careers. Anyone whose job depends on the discretionary income of others will be most affected, I think.
I also think most people would benefit from reading through Ted Trainer's "The Simpler Way". While some would find it too radical to implement all of his recommendations, there are always little ideas that you can take away to help simplify your life. The Rocky Mountain Institute's "Energy" library section, and especially the "Home Energy Briefs" category, have some great documents about making your home more efficient. In my opinion energy will be more expensive in the future, so efficiency can be easily justified financially.
I try to think positively about Peak Oil as much as I can. There are some silver linings even on the darkest of Peak Oil 'clouds'.
I'm reluctant to buy a house for a variety of reasons. The housing market is bubbly in my area - I've seen home values crash 50% here in the past. My employer is considering moving to a lower-cost area. I'm not sure if, when TSHTF, a farm in the country or an apartment in the city will be better options. My family lives far away, in an area I suspect will be a terrible place to ride out peak oil, and I'm torn between joining them and hoping I can convince them to join me.
I need a peak oil-aware financial planner.
Personally, my way of dealing with uncetainty is to assume that there is a 50% chance of a major dieoff within five years and a 50% chance of business pretty much as normal for the next fifty years. Either outcome is unlikely, but I am prepared for both.
For decades I have worked on the accumulation of useful skills as a way of preparing for the worst. It is easy, for example, to get a fine bow and superb arrows; it takes time and much practice to become an expert bow hunter. Gardening is another example: heirloom seeds are easy to get and amazingly cheap, but what is hard is figuring out how to beat the pests without pesticides and what grows best in my particular soil and climate. My most brilliant move was to get a property with some scores of sugar maple trees on it and learn how to do sugaring; now I have a valuable and renewable good for trade, regardless of what happens in the future.
Seeing that the people I work with are bissfully unaware of possible major problems does nothing to give me confidence in the decisions they make. But in my particular case I didn't have much confidence in my company anyway. The biggest effect for me career wise is that I have re-evaluated my plans. I'm not really looking to change from my present situation into another that is similar, so I have scaled back my job hunt. I'm focused instead on how to make a living closer to my home, which may entail a career change. I'm thinking more seriously about starting something on my own, or with a few others, and I would love for it to be energy related. It will take some time to accomplish this, but then the job market for engineers stinks anyway.
When I'm at work, my motivation to do a good job comes from my own desire to do what is right, and that I care about the people I have worked with for a very long time. But I don't get worked up about it anymore, as I fundamentally believe that my present employment situation is temporary regardless of my performance, on a scale of say 5yrs or less, due to factors both internal and external. So I'm basically one foot out the door, it's just that I have no idea what's on the other side.
My personal philosophy is to minimize the consequences of being wrong. If we were to chose modernity and peak oil caused cascading system failure, it would be a disaster. If we were to move even further into the country and adopt a neo-Amish lifestyle, then our children would have a sub-standard education in many respects and we would be cut off from the intellectual culture we value. Peak oil (or financial crisis, which is an even bigger concern for me in the short term) might make that a price worth paying in advance, but there is no guarantee. I would hate to have drastically narrowed my children's options prematurely.
Basically, we have been seeking a dynamic balance between two very different lifstyles - a balance which provides quite a reasonable degree of control over the necessities of our own existence, while being sufficiently flexible that it can be shifted in one direction or the other as new information becomes available. My partner and I work as power system consultants and are trying to build a renewable energy business (biogas and microhydro). We offer expertise in energy policy and legislative review (me) and also in simulation and control engineeering as applied to power systems at the transmission level and at the level of individual generators (my partner). One of our children is training to be an artist, and another an opera singer. All of that is very much grounded in modernity.
At the same time, we raise sheep, alpacas, chickens and sled dogs on our small farm. We live in the country, but close enough to major population centres that good schools are accessible and the occasional trip to town for work or for pleasure is not out of the question. We grow our own vegetables and cut our own hay (with a little help from our friends). We have our own water, sewage system and power generation. Our recreation tends to be inexpensive country pursuits all year round, and our children are learning many traditional skills as well as school-based intellectual ones. Our third child wants to be farmer. We carry no debt and can live quite cheaply as we provide for many of our own necessities. We have no financial investments as we are convinced that a deflationary financial crisis will destroy many asset classes.
We feel we have done our personal best to take control of an uncertain situation, and that is psychologically empowering. Life is hard sometimes and we don't always get much sleep, but having a reasonable grasp of what we are facing as a society allows for psychological preparedness, and that - mental acceptance of a higher level of risk - is half the battle.
TOD is great for enhancing psychological preparedness in a logical and dispassionate manner, which is why I spend so much of my precious time here. It's a good antidote to the mass-hysteria I expect to overtake the unprepared masses in the next few years. That form of irrational panic (the polar opposite of and natural follow-on from the irrational exuberance of recent years) is my biggest concern for the next couple of decades, and the one I have the most still to do in order to prepare for.
We all have responsibilies. I wanted to head for the hills at first, but what's the point of that? I like society, I like culture, and I like technology!
On the other hand, I don't like consumerism, and rooting that out of my life is a big part of my preparations. So this is good.
I know from personal experience that some people are predisposed to obsess over these issues. On the other hand, depression can have external causes, and Peak Oil is one hell of an external cause. Besides, sometimes the only way out (of obsession) is through.
Welcome to the club.
I try and use the information I learn here to bring some perspective to long term projects. A focus on the energy costs really helps other people make decisions. You don't have to convince them that we will peak, only that energy is going to get a lot more expensive. Everybody now believes this after the last two years of increasing prices. Build that into the plan.
As many have stated, don't give up. Even with a lot of change we need unique ideas to solve problems. Some wonderful ideas are not being implemented now because it is too early financially. Just knowing there are options will help in the future.
One thing that makes this more difficult is that there is so much to know. I have had to seriously study energy production and economics (20 hours a week?) just to understand the arguments on this site well enough to evaluate them. Yes, I am obsessed. But, I feel this may be the most important issue of our lifetimes, so how can I say "enough".
A personal difficulty I have is that I have this controlling urge. Like, if I can learn enough, I can somehow make it all better. Objectively I know that is false, but I don't want to let go, somehow.
Two things help me; working on preparing, and most especially time with my family and friends. Financial preparation and learning self-sufficiency skills give me a sense of control, that I am doing something. Family reminds me to lighten up and get some perspective, and that I am loved.
No, but seriously. You want to cope? Be glad you are one of those who "knows," brother. You were put here to guide the less fortunate. Get busy.
No, I don't think so. I think in the end all decisions are normative, but that does not mean they cannot be based on study of empirical data. It's just that the empirical part only gets you so far. Beyond that you're fooling yourself, or perhaps just delaying making a decision. This is my approach with peak oil, in that I'm trying to learn as much as I can, but I fully expect that my decisions and actions will be made using normative judgment.
At my company, I am subjected to increasing amounts of "process" - it appears to be our best product. And I've wrestled with this for a long time, because obviously one needs a certain amount of effective processes to make things work. It's not all quackery. But it seems that ultimately all these efforts end up end up trying to eliminate human judgment, and I have come to believe that good judgment - the normative part - is precisely what makes people effective and their work valuable.
You sound like a person who is tormented by the fact that your brain started "thinking" again and started "questioning" the stuff that slips past most people as situation normal.
Maybe knowledge of Peak Oil made you start questioning things. The corporate management gurus come into the meeting room and start babling about new "process" and re-engineering our re-engineered selves. Am I close to target? (Not really sure what "process" or system operations management approach you refer to. Every company has their own language. But bullshit is bullshit, whether it's Enron spin or Ford's Way Forward or GM's Way into the Wayback machine or whatever.)
As the management heads babble on, you start thinking to yourself: "What is wrong with these people? Don't they know Peak Oil is coming? Don't they realize this new 'process' is a meaningless gesture?"
Well no. They don't. They are in their world. You are in yours.
Behavioral economics has tested the premises of normative (mainstream) economics and found them less than perfectly correct. Whether assumptions of rationality and related topics in today's normative economics are close enough to reality to save mainstream models is a question on the front burner.
Personally, I am a disciple of Herbert Simon and believe in bounded rationality and the concept of "satisficing" [dreadful and misleading word] as described in the famous book by March and Simon. Also, as a sociologist I believe that mainstream economists have missed the boat by sneering at "meer description" and in one case saying that economists would be no better than botanists (and I love botanists!) if they focused on the empirical.
Another good attempt to integrate the normative and the empirical is to be found in the work of Schumpeter, and also in the instituionalists, from Veblen to the present day. Yet another good example of the integration of normative and behavioral is to be found in the work of one of my old profs, Daniel McFadden.
I have been thinking of putting together of the satisificing (and related social psychology) research as well...it's not related very well to my own research agenda, so I don't know it all that well, but every time I read something or go to a conference, there's satisficing. IT's probably something I should know more about.
There were some forty independent libraries on the huge Berkeley campus back in the sixties (Ah, what a decade to be at UCB--but the fifties were good too.), and what I did was to ride my old $15 Raleigh 3-speed bike up and down the hills to all the libraries and to talk to department chairmen, etc. about where the best articles were to be found. What were my results? Astonishing. Nobody had read anything outside their own discipline. The psych people had a social psych subdepartment, but those dudes knew absolutely nothing outside of publications in psych journals, of which there were few. The sociologists were equally bad, and to avoid profanity I shall omit the political scientists. But guess what a pleasant surprise I found as I visited the 27th library in a little temporary building left over from World War II: A fabulously good library and intelligent and knowledgeable profs in the engineering department. With hindsight, it became obvious: Engineers have to know how to make good decisions, or bridges fall down . . . or the Twin Towers collapse for no good reason.
The Business Administration department was way better than the Econ department when it came to serious examination of decision and organization theory.
In my opinion the most serious problem we face is not peak oil or global warming: It is organization. We do not know how to organize very well. There has been little progress in theories of organization or decision-making (despite thousands of publications and some Nobel Prizes) during the past fifty years, and that fact scares me.
I'd like to see our brightest people go into organization and decision theory areas, because if we can figure out how to organize, not only will we flourish past the end of fossil fuels . . . . but then the dreams of the 1940s and 1950s science fiction writers can be realized: The stars will be ours.
I have very bad news for you, your wish has been granted.
The "bright" people did go into those areas.
They work for Madison Avenue.
They work as lobbyists on K Street.
They learned how to manipulate the masses
and "organize" the masses so that the sheeple engage in "decision making" that brings profit and power to the elite who hire our brightest (namely those who ply their skills in organization control and decision control from their fancy offices on Madison Ave and K Street).
Plato asked ALL of the right questions. Because he was a genius, he also recognized that he did not have most of the right answers. Aristotle also asked all of the right questions, and he got more right answers than his teacher, Plato, had. For example, Aristotle explained quite lucidly why pure systems such as democracy or monarchy inevitably self-destruct. He advocated a mixed system to avert these problems and got into empirical research by having his students go to some dozens of Greek cities and collect written copies of their constitutions. Then he critically compared and contrasted these constitutions to try to figure out what worked and what did not work. When the library at Alexandria was burnt for the last time, the last copy of Aristotle's findings on these topics went up in flames (or so it has been speculated). Damn shame. Nobody as smart as Aristotle has been asking all the right questions for the past 2,400 years.
Aristotle understood that everything was connected to everything else; his first love was marine biology, and from a biologist's perspective one can go far in many directions. He knew all about collapse of societies from destruction of topsoil, knew of the essential importance of population policy, worried at length about what to do about poverty and the undue concentration of wealth and came up with answers that made good sense. Brilliantly, he tackled the most difficult issues, such as what should be the qualifications to vote, and why.
Did he make mistakes? Heck yes. But consider this: For Aristotle the topics of ethics and politics were considered to be one big ball of wax. In many ways our thinking has dengerated over the millenia.
Oh, BTW, both Plato and Aristotle believed law schools to be criminal enterprises, because they taught tricks to the young to convince people that the weaker argument was the stronger. Banish the lawyers . . . excuse me, I mean sophists. And the difference between a sophist and a lawyer?
The lawyer has a degree to prove what he has learned.
And what is a politician in our society?
Often a failed lawyer.
Since my regular bias is what the data shows, I'd like a fuller explanation of what the opposition you are setting up is so I may think about it further.
thanks, Dave
I bring up this juxtaposition of normative versus empirical for a couple of reasons. But, first let me define my terms.
normative:
adj 1: relating to or dealing with norms; "normative discipline"; "normative samples" 2: giving directives or rules; "prescriptive grammar is concerned with norms of or rules for correct usage" [syn: prescriptive] [ant: descriptive] 3: based on or prescribing a norm or standard; "normative grammar" [syn: prescriptive] 4: dealing with or based on norms; "a normative judgment"
empirical:
adj 1: Relying on or derived from observation or experiment; 2: Verifiable or provable by means of observation or experiment.
For instance, (from a wiki) jurisprudential theory is usually divided into two major modes of analysis: analytic/empirical jurisprudence, which studies what law "is," and normative jurisprudence, which studies what law "ought to be."
One of the things I think we do here at TOD, perhaps better than many, is provide an empirical case for our arguments, and then we use evidence to both edify and disconfirm other folks' hypotheses...strengthening the body of knowledge that we have here in our collective experience by trying it in the empirical world. It's one of the ways we are very "different."
So, I leave all of you with a ponderance or two:
Normative: subjective, value laden, emotional
Here's my favorite example: you can make all the empirical measurements of a swimming pool you want. How deep is it? How cold is the water? How high is the diving board? But when your toes are dangling off the edge of the board you have to make a normative decision about whether you dive in or not.
My opinion is that the data plays itself out, crises are not anticipated and then there's a mad scramble to get ourselves out of whatever mess we find ourselves in. I try to stick with strictly empirical views of what's going on in the world. I hardly ever post on what we should be doing although I know in many cases what that should be (eg. Coal Gasification with Carbon Sequestration) for US/China Power Plants. I did indulge myself a bit when I wrote about Pond Scum or Planet Savers? about algae farming.
best, Dave
A: When we finally see the global peak in our rear view mirrors, then, at long last, it will be "empirical". Until then it's just "normative."
On the other hand, as we scan past one country and the next that has already peaked, then on a country-by-country basis, Peak Oil is clearly "empirical". The markers are there.
This "empirical" versus "normative" debate seems to be similar to the kind you play with yourself as you drive through a cemetery, passing one tombstone after the next. Each grave marker is empirical evidence that "it" happens. But when it comes to the normative pondering over what "ought to happen", well that's different. "IT" ain't going to happen to me, and even if it does, it will be way off in the far far future. There is a good example of "normative" modeling.
In natural sciences and in empirical sociology and psychology the intuitive approach does not get us very far. In normative disciplines, especially logic, mathematics, linguistics, semiotics and philosophy, the intuitive knowledge about normative phenomena is all we have, so we have to build on that.
I was merely attempting to drop in a little epistemological thinking into this post, to get folks to ponder these angles. We are mostly scientists of some sort around here, and that's why the arguments are usually so well constructed. Usually the best arguments are normatively derived (they matter because they come from what ought to be) but empirically argued...but that's not to say that this is the only way to do things, eh? :)
Very interesting discussion. This question between normative and empirical was central to my own research in history. As you know, I was trained as a medievalist. I spent a lot of time exploring political power. The medievals divided political power into law and governance. Law, for them, was what we would call empirical, since human law was merely a branch of the law of nature and could be discerned through scholarly effort. Governance, for them, was the normative part. After all the lawyers, theologians, natural philosphers and other learned experts advised the king as to what the law was in any given matter, it was the king's job as governor to decide what to do.
Can you prove that? I would guess the membership is more diverse.
It seems to me(normatively speaking) that the energy buzz or excitement which the listeners came away with is related to switchgrass. Any merit to this as a non polluting partial or full replacement for carbon emitting fossil fuels?
All you really know for sure at this point is that it will probably be more expensive than producing ethanol from corn, because the harvesting, materials handling, and biological processing of cellulose is more involved than corn sugar and starch. On the other hand, it may be able to use land that doesn't have the water or soil quality for corn. So who knows? Somebody's got to do a pilot plant size operation to find out.
Seriously, please don't start another discussion thread about switchgrass when we have just finished a thread in this post with over two hundred comments, containing nesting down 14 levels and a great deal of animosity.
I suggest you read all the 200-odd comments in that post before asking any more questions here.
Lets just leave it as: Yes, it is a possible solution, but nobody has done enough research to know if it will be a) economic, b) scalable, or c) sustainable.
Sorry, I don't want to be rude, I'd just rather we move on from that particular circular argument.
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/1/27/14471/5832#comments
If anyone knows of a thread that beats this, please let me know.
(I hope TOD readers will indulge my boyish fascination for this kind of thing; remember, I'm the guy who recently ordered samples of crude so I could look at them and then show them off. I've already had one friend of mine look at me funny when I told her about it....)
Switchgrass, as an element of a cellulosic ethanol future ... is a bit far off.
On the other hand, I think regardless of our fine technical arguments, biomass (including possibly switchgrass) will catch on in the next few years for home heat ... just because it will probably beat natural gas on price.
So, I think it is good that switchgrass gets a plug (how many people heard it for the first time this week?), but expect to see it sold by the bag before you see it by the gallon.
IMNSHO.
We're left to argue switchgrass, because we don't get to argue CAFE II, or how high the new gasoline pump tax should be.
Officials at the refinery where the 575-foot Seabulk Pride was being loaded said the ship's cargo tanks were not breached, but that an unknown amount of fuel spilled into Cook Inlet southwest of Anchorage.
The tanker's owner, Florida-based Seabulk Tankers, Inc., told Tesoro that the ship's cargo tanks were not breached, she said.
According to the company's Web site, the Seabulk Pride is a double-hulled petroleum tanker with a carrying capacity of 342,000 barrels of oil."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/02/02/national/a121147S65.DTL
"The double-hulled tanker was carrying more than 100,000 barrels of different oil products. There were no immediate reports of any leak."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4675372.stm
Hope this isn't Valdez Part Deux.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_47/b3909079_mz054.htm
A similar peace is also informing how major Russion oil companies are unnoticably raising their reserve estimates:
http://www.mosnews.com/money/2004/04/30/oilreserves.shtml
So, officially we have 70 bln.bbl. (BP), but according to the industry itself Russia's true recoverable reserves are between 150 billion bbl. and 200 billion bbl.
So with 92 billion bbl. of commulative production, that would mean that the original recoverable reserves have been between 242 and 292 billion bbl. or Qt currently between 31.5 and 38%. Reserves in the order of SA are pretty consistent with the fact that in its best years Russia produced 12mln.bbd which is higher than SA's record of around 11 mln.bbd. If this is true then we may expect Russian production to rise significantly in the years to come, especially if they pour enough money, which they seem to be doing already.
Personally I pretty much deem these figures completely possible. Russia was a comunist country when the original estimates were made, and when it passed what appeared to be a Hubbert peak at this time. This means several important things:
"As long as sucking natural resources goes, capitalism has no rivals."
Looking forward to your response.
How about Bhopol? Or Gulf Minerals when they opted to not fix the scrubbers based on economics and contaimated the valley? Or rivers catching fire in the US?
All of the above are the actions of Capioltism working to maximize profit. These days in the US, there are laws to hopefully prevent the off-loading of production expenses on the common space or on resources with no defined owner who would take action.
http://powerlink.powerstream.net/002/00174/051222bp/BPAnimations.asx
I mentioned that it was more effective economical system, hence the faster drainage of resources. Just an observation, mind you I'm not advocating socialism, once per a lifetime is more than enough. If I make a thought experiment of Soviet Union continuing to exist now, I'd say that it would have suffered much more from the resource shortage due to the implicit inability of the system to adapt changes.
But you know - you don't know what you win when you lose and vice versa. Russians did not have good life but left a huge portion of their resources unaquired and now are positioned to cash them much wiser.
The assertion was to show that no matter that capitalism is the best economical order known to humans it obviously has the shortfall of clashing with the environment - that is it is not perfect and obviously not the final answer or order. Isn't this what we are researching in this blog in the end?
-- from Ayres
Hence, it wasn't unbridled capitalism on the Russian's part, but on our part.
The false issue is whether capitalism or socialism is good or evil. The genuine problems are to work out variations on themes that work. Capitalism is a theme that can work with great variations, from Denmark to Taiwan. Socialism is a theme that can work with variations from the Labor governments of England and Israel to the dictatorship of Castro. Indeed, one of the most remarkable and successful adaptations to a rapid decrease in use of oil is to be found in Cuba. It wasn't easy. People got hungry and literally lost a lot of weight, but they made the transition--and all this despite historically low sugar prices [on a scale of centuries] and the stupid trade embargo imposed on the U.S.
It is, but he did not say as much.
It would be no surprise to me if Russia had more probable reserves that it already knew of than it has let be known. Yes, a mite conspiratorial but ask yourself what would be in their best interests if they knew what we know (and presume they do). I personally think there are signs that Russia is perhaps intentionally slowing down in developing and exporting its energy resources.
LevinK has a point. Russia is exporting more than enough to finance a controlled development and societal enrichment, to produce more would cause more problems than benefits. They, like China, have probably modelled what will happen to the US economy given its present policies. Ten years is short term in their context.
IMO in Russia the role of politics and economical inefficiencies/disruptions have made HL pretty much unapplicable. For example a private owner would without doubt apply latest EOR methods at the point they become available. Which clearly was not the case in Russia.
-- from USGS
USA prohibits speculative estimates due to reporting regulations. But because of this very conservative estimation technique the original estimates are often 10 to 15 times off after 90 years. I hope that they aren't applying a +10X growth blindly to the Russian fields.
If I recall correctly EOR methods may account for up to 80% of the recoveries. During the period examined russian producers never felt the need ro re-assess their reserves. The production was owned by the state, there were no stockhoders to please. Only after mid-90s oil companies were privitised, and started being traded in the stock market in the late 90s. Not surprisingly private Russian companies soon started acting just like their US collegues, as evidences by the second link in the original post. If I were at their place I'd gradually grow the reserve numbers with time until they reach their original realistic values.
-- from USGS
So now that they are privatised they start making speculative estimates? Does not compute. Unless they are free-market capitalists and want to take people for a ride. Which I can probably believe; Russia is like the wild-west in terms of a mature well-regulated economy. The USA would never allow a speculative jump of 50%.
As far as the 80% number, I would like to see a reference. This would actually account for the difference if true. I wonder why USGS's geologist Verma did not flat-out state that. It is a big enough difference to account for the discrepancies. I wonder if that is why the Saudi's and Kuwaiti's are increasing their reserve estimates lately. They have the water injection covered pretty well, so that I assume when they give up with the water injection that we can assume another 4X = 80%/20% recoverable reserves from Ghawar and elsewhere, due to these fantastic EOR techniques?
What US companies did is to underreport their reserves intentionally and slowly to "re-evaluate" them to keep stockholders nice and warm. The Russian story is different - the new russian companies "privatised" (usually for pennies) enormous assets which were:
Russia is very much on the defensive geopolitically. It has two weapons: oil/gas and nuclear weapons. Their is no question that their paranoia is justified, with the Western instigated "color" revolutions gradually encircling them.
But I take no comfort in any of this, because the guys here are quite determined to get their hands on whatever reserves there are, anywhere, no matter how dangerous a game they have to play to do it. And the game played with Russia IS a dangerous game, because Russia is a huge, very weak country with lots of oil and gas---and nukes---nothing in between---no other means of defending itself. In a case like this, focusing on the positive impact it will have on PO misses the point---I think.
But look at it this way: Russia has for long been a loyal supplier and defacto an ally to the West on the energy front. They have a vested long-term interested to be such, which does not stop them from hinting what they could do if we step too much over their feet or do something stupid like invading Iran. After US finally looses its war on oil (oops terror, I always forget) in 5-10 years and 20$ per gallon finally persuade us that we have to get rid of our coke, we are still going to need a reliable supplier that will "finance" energetically our way out of oil. Russia having 160 Gb instead of 60Gb is a great news probably equal to the difference between total collapse of the society and just a little economic pain.
(but don't take my words for granted, today I'm having my optimistic hat on, tomorrow I could be advocating self-sufficiency LOL :)
The new missile, the SS-27 Topol-M, uses a mobile launch system (back of a large truck) is too fast (the fastest missile ever built) to be hit by an interceptor, is manueverable in flight (3 cruise engines), is hardened against lasers and other EM defensive measures, and has launchable decoys.
Writes Scott Ritter, a former intelligence officer and weapons inspector in the Soviet Union and Iraq in the Christian Science Monitor, "The Bush administration's dream of a viable NMD [National Missile Defense] has been rendered fantasy by the Russian test of the SS-27 Topol-M. To counter the SS-27 threat, the US will need to start from scratch."
http://www.csis.org/component/option,com_csis_events/task,view/id,880/
I never realized that there are only 4, and they're all in the same region.
Also, how would the oil get out of the SPR to California and the West Coast? Oil tankers around South America, or by some sort of pipeline? Slide 15 didn't explain this.
For a moment I thought I recognized a fellow peakoiler.
Are you out there Will?
What TV show was it? I'd really love to know what the other book was. Maybe there's a transcript online, if it was a news show.
Bill Gates interview to RTP
The first two minutes are a short bio, you won't understand anything of it.
Books are talked by 5:15. By the way the second book is "Bottomless Well", maybe not a peakoiler after all... :(
One always heres how oil is used to make so many products. So let me ask, which products below go into manufacturing? As a percentage, there does not appear to be any that are very heavily used.
US Oil Production 7,649
Oil Imports 13,145
Total 20,794
NGLs and LRGs 2,264 11%
Other Liquids (30) 0%
Finished Petro Prods
Finished Mogas 9,105 44%
Finished Avgas 17 0%
Jet Fuel 1,630 8%
Kerosene 64 0%
Distillate Fuel Oil 4,058 20%
Residual Fuel Oil 865 4%
Naphtha Petro Feed 390 2%
Oth Oils Petro Feed 366 2%
Special Naphthas 27 0%
Lubricants 141 1%
Waxes 15 0%
Petroleum Coke 524 3%
Asphalt & Road Oil 537 3%
Still Gas 704 3%
Misc Products 53 0%
Total 20,730
Evans admitted that global oil production was about as high as it's going to get.
Evans demanded that them scientist fellows out there do their magic and produce new sources of energy for us by using math and that other stuff. That will solve the oil shortfall problem.
As a science major, I was heartened to see how this wizard of Washington grasps the science stuff. You got it right fella. We use that fuzzy math stuff to create new energies. So, all we need is more math teachers and the world will be put right again.
The transcript from the Feb. 2, 2006 show is not up yet, but should be soon.
Don Evans stepped down as Bush's Secretary of Commerce shortly after the 2004 elections.
More here and here
Rainwater was persuaded after reading Jim Kunstler's most recent book. (TOD is one of Rainwater's favorite websites). Rainwater has an uncanny knack for successfully predicting future events and trends. He was the brains behind the hundred-fold increase in the Bass family's wealth.
Rainwater says that making money off Peak Oil is a no-brainer; however, he is more concerned about the survival of the human race than about making money.
Here are some snips:
Also tonight, President Bush`s good friend and former secretary of commerce, Don Evans, will talk about what the president meant by his "addicted to oil" remarks and the administration`s push to secure our standing in the global economy.
MATTHEWS: This is a--you`re an oil guy, the president is an oil guy, his father ran Zapata. Dick Cheney, the vice president, is an oil patch guy with Halliburton. Why are we going to something besides oil now, or what are we going for as an energy source?
EVANS: Well, you know, Chris, what we`re going for is a diversified energy source. The president knows the energy industry extraordinarily well and he knows that we cannot continue in the direction that we`ve been on for the last four decades or five decades.
When we came out of the mid-40s, America was producing about two-thirds of the global supply of oil and we were consuming about half of that. Today we consume about 25 percent of the oil in the world and we only produce about five percent of it.
And so we cannot continue that, and basically what the president was saying was we have to move on a course of freedom from overdependence on foreign sources of energy, and the route to doing that is through advanced technology and alternative sources of fuel, and putting more emphasis on sciences and math and engineering and innovation.
... But, Chris, you don`t wake people up until prices move to much higher levels, they can get painful, and the president has just straight talked to the American people, we cannot continue on this course.
...Countries like China and countries like India and other countries around the world that are trying to grow their economies so they can lift people out of poverty are going to be demanding more and more energy in the years ahead, and the president is just simply saying, we cannot stay on this course.
There is not enough supply of oil to continue to allow this global economy, as long as--as well as the domestic economy, to grow at its full potential, and so we have to change courses and we have to really begin to apply some new technology and bring some alternative sources of energy into the mix.
...What he`s saying is it is all about jobs, jobs, jobs, in terms of the direction of this country in the years ahead, jobs for your children, for your grandchildren. And what he`s saying is we need to change courses. We cannot continue to go down the path that we`re going down, because there is not enough supply of oil in the world to grow our economy or the global economy at its full potential. And so what he`s saying is, "Let`s focus on American competitiveness and let`s put a hard focus on sciences, and math, and engineering," so that they can develop the kind of new technologies and the new industries for jobs for your children and your grandchildren.
And I can tell you that one of the key areas of that will be in energy where we`ll see a lot of new industries develop in this country, that will be providing jobs for people all across this country, will be in developing new sources of energy, and new forms of energy, as well as conservation of energy, and guess what? That will apply all around the world. So it is all about jobs, jobs, jobs. His initiative is all about jobs, jobs, jobs, but you know, it`s not a geopolitical statement that he`s making, he`s stating what the reality of the facts of 2006.
..Chris, that is my bottom line. The world is producing oil, the Middle East, every country at its full capacity and it`s very unlikely that we`re going to be able to see supply in the world grow from the levels where we are right now. There`s a debate about that. I`m one that falls in the camp that says it`s going to be very, very hard to do that. But what I do know is China needs to continue to grow, India needs to continue to grow, America needs to continue to grow. So what that simply says is we`ve got to develop new forms of energy for the United States and the world.
In my opinion, we can compare Texas to the Lower 48 to the North Sea to Russia because whether we are capitalists or communists, we tend to find the big fields first. And IMO, HL is primarily plotting the rise and fall of the big fields.
In Texas, the Lower 48 and the North Sea, HL has been consistently right and CW has been consistently wrong. HL accurately picked the Russian plateau in the vicinity of 50% of Qt (estimated total recoverable reserves), and actual post-1985 Russian production is 93% of what HL predicted. As Russian production gets closer to where cumulative production should be, based on HL, production growth is slowing, from 11% to 9% to 2.7% last year (which DunanK showed graphically).
I have conceded the point that Russian will increase production from lightly explored basins, but IMO the massive effect of crashing production from the BOF's (Big Old Fields) will overwhelm the new production---much the way that the falling production in the Lower 48 overwhelmed the increasing production from Alaska.
As I described elsewhere, I am extremely concerned about net export capacity. Although overall world oil production may show a relatively gradual decline, since we are at 50% of Qt worldwide, the top four net oil exporters are collectively at about 65% of Qt.
In summary, you can believe the CW "happy talk" about Russian reserves, but remember: (1) CW has been consitently wrong and HL has been consistently right and (2) HL accurately predicted 93% of post-1985 produciton, and the rate of growth of Russian produciton is slowing as they get closer to where cumulative production should be.
Also, net exports--as recent Russian oil company statements have shown--will be squeezed by increasing domestic consumption.
IMO, we have months--not years--before the full force of the Peak Oil crisis hits in the face. And I think that it will be worse than most of us have been anticipating--because of the net export factor.
Worldwide, there has not been a one mbpd or larger field found for 30 years--since the Cantarell Field, which is in terminal decline. Its it possible that we will find one? Yes. Will it make a difference? No--for the same reasons outlined above, it takes time to develop the field and worldwide production will probably be falling at the rate of 3-4 mbpd per year pretty soon.
Jay Hanson: Interview
Kona, Hawaii / June 21, 2003
by Scott Meredith
"Like some bold seer in a trance, Seeing all his own mischance"
- Alfred Lord Tennyson
Introduction
The "Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come", in Charles Dickens' classic story, leads Ebenezer Scrooge to his own future gravesite - the desolate, neglected and evidently disgraced outcome of his life. The scene is chilling:
"Before I draw nearer to that stone to which you point," said Scrooge," answer me one question. Are these the shadows of the things that Will be, or are they shadows of things that May be, only?"
Still the Ghost pointed downward to the grave by which it stood.
"Men's courses will foreshadow certain ends, to which, if persevered in, they must lead," said Scrooge. "But if the courses be departed from, the ends will change. Say it is thus with what you show me."
The Spirit was immovable as ever.
Try googling Ken Alibeck and read books about bioweaponry by Richard Preston such as "the Hot Zone". We have had long discussions about this with Jay on the Yahoo forums: Dieoff_Q&A, and AlasBabylon--check the archives. Google how much money is being spent on building the most secure Biosafety Level 4 Labs. Smallpox, bird flu, or whatever gene-toy they finally release is infrastructure friendly, and biodiversity friendly--only kills humans-- in short, a much better choice than resorting to the full-on nuclear gift exchange. Time will tell. It is the only choice to roll back the clock on the filling of the global petri dish-- my guess is that we are at 11:59 now--12:00 is too late.
Jay has again backed out from regular participation in these forums, he only pops back in occasionally. Basically, just kicking back on the Kona beaches and working on his own personal survival plan. A very smart and lucky guy.
Bob Shaw in Phx,AZ Are Humans Smarter than Yeast.
It's almost certainly an exercise in futility, but what I also want to do is to get a national figure come out in favor of eliminating the US payroll tax (Social Security + Medicare) and replacing it with a petroleum fuel tax. At least it would be an attempt to TRY to do something.
Proposal: Replace Payroll Tax with a Petroleum Fuel Tax
I used to say that the suburbs are dead; the suburbanites just don't know it yet.
It's probably more accurate to say that the suburban commutes are dead; the suburban commuters just don't know it yet.
This is probably a pipe dream, but in my opinion an excellent proposal is to abolish the payroll tax (Social Security + Medicare) and replace it with a liquid transportation (petroleum) fuel tax. We can take the assets in the "Trust Funds" and use them to pay off the liabilities that the Treasury Department has. Of keep them--it doesn't matter, there is no real value there either way.
The majority of American households pay more in the payroll tax than in the income tax. This would be a tax cut for most households and it would a massive tax increase on those who are profligate in their use of energy. No matter where you live, your cost of goods would go up, but if you lived close to where you work, your effective tax rate would go down. Of course, those who persisted in long commutes would pay the price.
There would of course be very powerful forces opposed to this idea--the housing industry; auto industry; airlines; trucking--the list goes on. But the fates of these industries are sealed. It's not a question of if they will contract/collapse; it's just a question of when. The sooner it happens, the better off we all will be. This idea would cause an immediate across the board push for greater energy efficiency. As energy consumption falls, we keep jacking up the tax rate to keep the money flowing for Social Security and Medicare, which causes an even greater push for energy efficiency, and the cycle goes on.
A high gasoline gas does not necessarily equate to a lower standard of living. Norway, with the highest gasoline tax in the world, has the highest standard of living in the world, perhaps partly because their car ownership per 1,000 people is about half of what it is in the US.
There would be some other benefits. As we turned to walking, biking and mass transit, our health would improve. There is pretty much a linear correlation between obesity rates and total miles driven (here in the US, we are the world champs in both categories).
Also, the tax could be levied on just petroleum derived fuels--and not on ethanol, which would cause demand for ethanol to skyrocket.
Jeffrey J. Brown
Independent Petroleum Geologist
This sometimes happens.