Breaking Down Prop 87

Introduction

California's Proposition 87 promises to reduce oil consumption in California, at no expense to the consumer. I am quite sympathetic to the goal of reducing petroleum dependence. This is a goal to which we should all aspire. But I have my doubts that the promises being made by the Proposition 87 campaign can be kept. I also dispute many of the claims made by the Prop 87 proponents. Finally, I have a problem with the way the oil industry is being portrayed in order to win support for this measure.

[editor's note, by Prof. Goose] Don't forget the reddit and digg tip jars if you enjoy the piece.

While I do not intend for this to be a point by point rebuttal of Ana Unruh Cohen's recent essay in support of Prop 87, I do intend for it to debunk a number of claims from the Yes on 87 campaign. As I turn a critical eye toward the claims of the pro-87 contingent, I invite Ana to do the same to the anti-87 contingent if she wishes to write a follow-up to this essay. It is not actually my intent to argue that you should vote one way or the other, even though it may sound like I am staking out a solid No on 87 position. My intent in this essay is to look into my crystal ball to see what Prop 87 will really do, and to set the record straight with respect to the oil industry. My prediction is that Prop 87 will receive at least 60% of the vote, but that 10 years from now California will still be just as dependent on oil as is the rest of the country.

Where I'm Coming From

I struggled with whether to put this section at the beginning or the end. Ultimately, I decided to open up with it, because I want you to know up front where I am coming from. You may consider this section a personal rant, designed to explain why I get upset with some of the rhetoric that is directed at my industry. I understand that this rhetoric plays well in Peoria, and everywhere else for that matter, but as an oil company employee I feel that this is unfair to a great many people.

Many people think of oil companies and see the face of Lee Raymond, ExxonMobil's recently retired CEO. I see the faces of the many men and women who work very hard to make sure the transportation industry can get the fuel they need to deliver food around the globe. I see the faces of many people who juggled operations to make sure that the airplanes recently used to fight fires in Montana and Washington had the aviation fuel they needed to do their jobs.

I admit that my views are shaped from working inside the oil industry. But that doesn't mean that my views are wrong. When people write that oil companies are evil incarnate, they aren't just talking about Lee Raymond. In fact, they are talking mostly about people like Tim Crank. Let me tell you about Tim. Three years ago, Tim was working on a pump at a refinery in Ponca City, Oklahoma. A release occurred while he was working, which resulted in an explosion and fire. Tim died from injuries received as a result of the fire, leaving behind a wife and two young children. This tragic incident will always be imprinted in my mind, because I witnessed it. I know how his family struggled to cope with his death. Furthermore, I know that just about everyone in this industry can tell a similar tragic story.

While some may see this personal story as a cynical or insincere ploy to generate sympathy, the reason I told this story is to let you know why I get angry when my entire industry is characterized in venomous terms. The vast majority of oil companies are made up of people like Tim Crank, just trying to do their jobs, and tragically sometimes losing their lives in the process. People outside the oil industry often view us with disdain, because they think of Big Oil and see Lee Raymond. I get defensive because I see Tim Crank, out there working to make sure the public gets their fix of cheap gas. That's why I won't sit idly by while people speak of my industry with contempt. The Prop 87 campaign has been guilty of this, and this is why they have my undivided attention.

Fact or Fiction?

One of my biggest pet peeves has to be misleading claims or fiction that masquerades as fact. Following are some examples from the "Key Facts" page at the Yes on 87 site.

Yes on 87 "Fact": Oil companies that oppose Prop 87 posted record-setting profits in the last five consecutive quarters -- $78.3B in 2005 and $20.5B in the first quarter alone of this year.

Reality: Oil companies have in fact done very well lately. The oil industry is cyclical, and the current 10% earnings on sales is much better than the historical 5-7% earnings on sales. Of course these numbers pale in comparison to companies like Microsoft, who are earning 26.5% on sales. Microsoft recently had profits of $2.89 billion on revenues of $10.9 billion. Oil companies would love to see those kinds of margins. The overall numbers are larger for many oil companies, simply because the companies are much, much larger even than Microsoft. But record-setting profits are pretty meaningless unless placed in context.

Yes on 87 "Fact": CA is the third largest oil-producing state, but the only one where the oil companies don't pay oil drilling fees like they do in other states.

Reality: This claim is false. There are a number of states in which no drilling fees are paid. Furthermore, according to this article:

Except for California, most oil producing states rely on a severance tax for the majority of oil revenues. Yet contrary to popular belief, California does not place an abnormally light tax burden on crude oil producers. Considering both tax and royalty revenues, state government revenues from oil production in California amounted to 13.4 percent of the value of nonfederal production in the state, well above comparable rates for Oklahoma, Texas, and Wyoming.

Yes on 87 "Fact": Oil companies are gouging California consumers at the pumps with the highest prices in the nation.

Reality: As you will learn in this essay, the reason Californians pay some of the highest gas prices in the nation is that they have some of the highest gasoline taxes in the nation. Besides that, I dispute that anyone is being gouged. First, provide a definition of "gouging", and then I will get back with you on that one. I suspect we would find that pretty much anyone who sells into a rising market would be guilty of the same kind of gouging. Most people in California who have sold a home at a nice profit would certainly be guilty of gouging.

Yes on 87 "Fact": Oil companies are blocking our access to cleaner, cheaper fuels.

Reality: This is a ludicrous claim. Oil companies have made big investments into solar, wind , and biofuels. In fact, the only company running a large scale cellulosic ethanol trial, Iogen, is receiving major funding from Shell.

Yes on 87 "Fact": Prop 87 makes it illegal for oil companies to raise gas prices to pass the cost along to consumers.

Reality: Prices are affected by supply and demand, not by propositions that declare it illegal to raise gas prices. Hawaii recently tried an experiment in price controls, despite warnings that consumers would be harmed. When the warnings came true, Hawaii abandoned this experiment.

Yes on 87 "Fact": Requires strict accountability; nonpartisan, expert oversight and no new bureaucracy.

Reality: Where I see no accountability at all is if this measure fails to achieve the desired results. In my opinion, it will raise gasoline prices for California consumers, while penalizing shareholders of oil companies. Where is the accountability to those groups for their lost dollars should this measure fail?

Yes on 87 "Fact": California deserves its fair share and the oil companies can afford to pay it. But the opposition is lining up, contributing millions of dollars to spin, scare and deceive voters.

Reality: Following this essay, you can decide whether California is getting a "fair share". You will also see that some Prop 87 proponents are guilty of spin and deception.

Truth in Advertising

I am confident that Prop 87 will raise gas prices in California. That's fine with me, because this should increase conservation. However, the Prop 87 proponents are promising Californians that there will be no increase in gas prices. Californians are being promised a free lunch; that in fact this new $4 billion tax will be borne entirely by oil companies.

I don't see it that way. Each year, oil companies decide where they will allocate capital based on expected returns for various projects. After the initiative passes, it will be less profitable to extract oil in California. The expected returns for some capital projects in California will decrease. California will get just a bit smaller capital allocation from corporate budgets, which over time will squeeze supplies. Not only will the returns from California be lower, but initiatives such as this are viewed as hostile toward the industry, providing another disincentive for investing capital in California. As investment slows and gasoline capacity fails to keep up with demand, higher prices will result.

Some proponents have declared this scenario unrealistic, because oil and gas prices are set on the global market. For example, in a recent report, ABC news reporter Mark Matthews asked the following question: "But will 87 raise the price of gas?" He then answered the question with "The price of oil is set on a world market, not state by state." What many people don't seem to understand is that there isn't a single price for oil. Oil prices vary greatly in different locations based on a number of factors, as Ana rightly pointed out in her previous essay. Prop 87 will improve the economics for importing oil into California, simply because it will increase the operating costs for California oil producers. So, even though West Texas Intermediate, for example, is set on the world market, the price for crudes produced in California will reflect California's specific circumstances. And those specific circumstances are set to change with passage of this proposition.

In fact, it seems that the only people who think gas prices won't be impacted are the Prop 87 proponents. According to California Politics Today:

Proposition 87 may prohibit an "oil tax pass-through," but everyone but its sponsors agrees it will raise gas prices at the pump.

Protecting consumers from price increases at the pump based on the levying of this tax is the implicit promise of Proposition 87's proponents and the form in which they are promising California voters the always-popular something for nothing, not to mention, as will be heard in the interviews below, promising to repeal the basic economic law of supply and demand, which, in this context, amounts to the same thing.

Making "it illegal to pass the cost to us" is not the same as guaranteeing that passing Proposition 87 won't, on its own, cause gasoline prices to rise.

As can be heard in the four interviews below with a range of experts and advocates in the fields of energy and economics, adding to the cost of oil produced in California cannot help but cause an increase in the price to consumers in California of gasoline.

So, in the interest of truth in advertising: Prop 87 will widen the gap between gas prices in California and the national average. Guaranteed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since this will promote conservation.

Make Them Pay Their Fair Share. And Then Some.

Proponents of Prop 87 paint a picture in which oil companies operating in California are not paying their fair share for extracting California's resources. They will note that Texas has an extraction fee, and argue that California is getting a raw deal from the oil companies. However, to get an accurate comparison, we have to look at the entire taxation picture.

There are a number of ways that states receive revenue as a result of oil and gas transactions. Extraction taxes are but one example. Corporate income taxes are another example. So, even though Texas has an extraction tax of 4.6%, versus none for California, Texas does not charge oil companies a corporate income tax. California, on the other hand, charges oil companies an income tax rate of 8.84%, one of the highest in the nation. When times are good and oil companies are making big profits, states like California share in the "windfall."

According to the Long Beach Chamber of Commerce:

Oil producers pay the state corporate income tax on profits earned in California. California's corporate income tax rate is among the highest of the top producing states. Texas, in fact, does not have a corporate income tax at all which provides producers a competitive advantage over California in trying to attract capital investment. California producers also pay a regulatory fee to the Department of Conservation (regulates oil production in the state) that is assessed on production, with the exception of production in federal offshore waters.

So, despite the claims that oil companies in California are not paying their fair share, they already pay a much greater percentage of their income to the state than they do in Texas. I bet oil companies would have no problem at all with the proposed extraction tax if California wants to waive the corporate income tax as Texas does.

Of course taxes on gasoline sales also provide a large revenue stream for state governments, but these taxes are paid directly by consumers. In California, not only does the state get $0.14 a gallon, they also assess a sales tax of 8.75%. When gasoline is $3 a gallon, this means that California receives $0.32 a gallon in combined sales and excise taxes. Here is the breakdown of gasoline taxes, according to the San Francisco Chronicle:

If you're paying about $3 a gallon at the pump in Alameda County where the sales tax is 8.75 percent, here is an estimated breakdown of who gets what:

-- Fuel price per gallon: $2.40

-- Federal Excise Tax: $0.18

-- State Excise Tax: $0.18

-- Sales tax for state government: $0.14

-- State bond debt payment: $0.01

-- Sales tax for local government: $0.10

I can tell you without a doubt that the government take is significantly higher than the income that oil companies earn in California. In fact, according to the same article:

Since 2002, sales tax revenues on gas have been growing annually by $300 million to $400 million to reach $2.86 billion in 2005, according to the California Board of Equalization.

"There's a lot of blame to go around (when it comes to high fuel prices), but the government certainly should be on the list," said Bill Leonard, a member of the Board of Equalization. "The government is the biggest profiteer of them all."

Higher prices at the pump are one reason the state will see a sizable revenue windfall this year. When Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger updates his budget proposal Friday, he is expected to announce that the overall tax revenue is expected to be $5 billion more than his earlier estimate in January.

Isn't it interesting that the government is receiving the biggest windfall of all? It would seem that the logical place for the Prop 87 proponents to grab alternative energy funds would be some of this government windfall, given that this tax is already in place.

It also appears that the high state gasoline tax is the primary reason per capita usage of gasoline in California is low. After all, there is a very strong correlation between the states with the highest gasoline taxes - New York, Hawaii, California, Nevada, and Illinois - and the lowest per capita users of gasoline. While low per capita gas usage is certainly a good thing, it indicates that high state taxes result in lower product sales for oil companies in California than if California had Texas' $0.20/gallon gasoline tax rate. Again, I am sure oil companies wouldn't object much to Prop 87 if there was going to be a reduction to the sales tax rate, because they would sell more product. But the point is that the high gasoline tax is also affects the profits of oil companies in California.

The bottom line? Texas adopted one model: No corporate income tax, low gasoline taxes (leading to higher consumption), but an oil extraction tax. California adopted a different model: High corporate income tax, high gasoline taxes (leading to lower consumption), but no oil extraction tax. To suggest that oil companies are not paying their fair share in California simply because they don't pay an extraction tax is a grotesque mischaracterization of the actual tax situation.

A Transfer of Wealth

While the stated intent of Prop 87 is to make California less dependent on petroleum, let's be clear on exactly what it will do. Prop 87 is a transfer of wealth from one industry to a competing industry. In most cases, various subsidies are funded by taxes that we all pay in, and in fact many of the alternative technologies that Prop 87 would fund already receive very generous government subsidies. But on top of that, the proponents argue that it is appropriate to take from one special interest and give to another, because oil dependence is not good for us.

Let's put this in perspective. Fast food isn't good for us. Would most people consider it appropriate to place an additional tax on McDonalds and Burger King, and funnel the proceeds into health food stores? Would it be appropriate if I funded an initiative to achieve this, while at the same time investing in the health food stores that would benefit? Does anyone have a problem with that? Wouldn't it be more effective to assess a tax on the people who frequent McDonalds, if my goal is to reduce dependence on McDonalds? Why is it appropriate to assess an additional tax burden on one industry and funnel the money to a competitor? Why is it not more appropriate to funnel the windfall that government has received to fund alternative energy projects?

Most supporters of this transfer of wealth don't have a problem with it, but the money will mostly come from average working families and retirees who invested their money into company shares or into a mutual fund that owns company shares. These are the owners of Big Oil. It isn't primarily the Lee Raymond's that you are taking money from. The $4 billion comes from shareholders, and the "free lunch" comes at their expense.

And where is the accountability here? Let's say that Prop 87 does not have the desired effect of reducing petroleum consumption. Furthermore, let's say that it does indeed increase gasoline prices for California consumers, despite the assurances of the proponents. Ignoring for now the fact that Big Oil will of course be blamed for the increase in gas prices, how will Prop 87 proponents rectify this with the people of California? How will they rectify it with the shareholders from whom they extracted the $4 billion? The truth is, they won't be accountable for the failure of this measure. It will just be a $4 billion "oops", that is going to end up financially hurting a lot of people.

Lessons from Proposition 42

In 2002, California voters approved Proposition 42. According to this analysis of Proposition 42:

Proposition 42 would permanently dedicate revenues from the state's share of the sales tax on gasoline to transportation projects. This sales tax on gasoline is already collected at the pump and generates roughly $1.3 billion a year.

Now that seems like a pretty good proposition to me. Take the sales tax that is being collected, and dedicate some of those funds to reducing the demand for petroleum (sort of like Prop 87, except you aren't taking money from the shareholders). 20% of the funds were supposed to be spent for mass transit and intercity rail. Fast forward to 2006:

Sales Tax on Gasoline a Bonanza for State

We find that the words "permanently" and "dedicated" are quite easily dispensed with:

Revenue from state sales tax on gasoline is supposed to go for transportation projects under Proposition 42, which voters approved in 2002. But in recent years, legislators and the governor have invoked special provisions of the ballot measure that allowed them to dip into that fund, moving about $2.5 billion to pay for other expenses.

Hopefully, Prop 87 funds can't be similarly diverted. But it does make me wonder whether the legislature might be able to divert these funds into other areas.

Conclusion

I predict Prop 87 will pass, primarily because people see it as a way to stick it to Big Oil. I think the measure will decrease gasoline consumption in California, by making gasoline more expensive. Furthermore, I predict that the measure will be abandoned well before $4 billion is raised as the price disparity in California's gasoline market widens over the national average.

I actually favor higher gas prices, though. I think that will extend our supplies of oil. But I do have a problem with deceptive claims, especially when they are aimed at my industry. If I was in California, I am still not sure how I would vote. I think proponents missed an opportunity to write a much better proposition. I understand their need to write a politically palatable initiative, but I am turned off by hollow political promises. In conclusion, if you cast your vote for Prop 87, at least make sure you are voting based on facts, and not on spin.

Disclaimer: Once again, I want to make it clear that to my knowledge, my company is not fighting this measure, nor have they contributed any money toward doing so. I don't believe that we extract oil from California.. So, I have nothing to gain financially from supporting or opposing this measure. I am also not a resident of California, so my comments are those of an unaffected party.

I feel the same way about the public view of the oil industry. I was the third generation of my family to work for Phillips Petroleum, now ConocoPhillips. The public has forced the oil industry to work so quietly, the result has been a public that has no understanding or appreciation of it.

The work that the oil industry has done over the past 100 years easily rivals the space program.

I disagree with your and Robert's defense of the oil industry. When people criticize oil companies, they aren't complaining about Sally who answers phones in shipping, or Joe pulling pipe in Louisiana. They are talking about the people at the top, the policy makers, the influence wielders. You can't call up examples of noble rank and file members as a defense against policy critiques. Even Enron I'm sure had mostly good employees spread throughout the company.

My father worked his whole career for Unocal, and I worked in the oil fields while in college. I'm a nice guy, and maybe my father was, but that doesn't mean anything at the level where these criticisms apply.

When people criticize oil companies, they aren't complaining about Sally who answers phones in shipping, or Joe pulling pipe in Louisiana. They are talking about the people at the top, the policy makers, the influence wielders.

But Sally and Joe are part of that industry. When people hurl venom, do you think Sally and Joe are unaffected? When people pass misguided legislation aimed at punishing the industry, do you think it doesn't affect Sally and Joe?

My defense is not a blanket defense of the oil industry. There are many areas that we need improvement in. There are many areas that we need to change. My defense in this instance is aimed at misinformation and misguided finger-pointing. It is aimed at the charges that we are ripping people off.

So we can't blanket criticize ANY industry, because there always exist bottom tiers who havn't participated in wrongdoing?

Bull.

I'm tired of all this "Criticizing the war is attacking our courageous troops" bull, and I think everyone else is too.  Of course we're not attacking the people at the bottom - they have no power in decision making.  One gets angry at the brain of an entity(the CEO, the commander in chief, etc), not its toes.  And when people percieve they are being screwed, they have a right to get angry.

If someone alleges that the oil industry is {profiteering/pricefixing/gauging/jaywalking}, they're talking about the decision making bodies of the industry.  If Sally the Gas Pumper or Joe the Geologist can't seperate themselves from the bigwigs mentally, that's their problem - and because of it(and the PO-related events coming) they might not be suited to the industry.

Bit of Hypocrisy on my part cause I fall into the same trap, but yes I would say blanket blaming an industry is not helpful, counter productive, and more often than not wrong because the generalizations are painted far to broadly.

The CEOs, and Heads of State like most any man or woman, are a mix of good and evil, wise and foolish, and lucky and unlucky, just like any OTHER human being.

The reason so much attention gets focused their way is because every action they make gets magnified in importance because of their position but what many seem to forget is that just because they have moved into a position of power doesn't make them super-human.

A prime example of a man who I think is being crucified far beyond what is needed, or even permitted by law is Ken Lay.  Did he do some stupid and corrupt things?  Given the evidence it certainly looks so.  Did he also do some good and benevolent things, yes he did.  He was very civic minded, and also gave lots to Houston local charities churches and programs.  He was a blend of good and bad traits like most human beings, but the only thing you will ever hear about are the bad.  Its unfortunate because despite his mistakes, he did have many positive impacts as well.

What's worse, is the desire for blood is rabid enough, that post-mortem, there is an attempt to re-write law in order to continue a prosecution against him.  He's dead.  By law that means there is no case, and as far as his involvement in things it should be buried along with him.  But people feel so cheated out of their revenge, they are willing to sacrifice a major principle of our justice system, the right of the accused to be present, in order to get at him.

This is what blanket blaming leads too.  Irrational and seething anger, to the point where it blinds people to very evils they are committing to counter whatever it is they are angry at.  If you got a problem with the way something is being handled then try to be specific.

Personally I support the war in Iraq, I think it was a needed action(regardless if 9/11 had happened), I think the ideals set forth by Bush at its inception were good ones, and I think our troops are doing a pretty bang up job considering the uphill battle they seem to be caught in.  My criticisms of the war have more to do with our policy makers in how we are to go about the mission(that includes Bush and crew).  And when I try to explain my position to people about the war, I try to frame it in a manner that directs my frustration at the portion of the war machinery I find faulty.  But I don't say, I hate the whole war, or support the whole war as a blanket statement.  

Admittedly I'm not perfect about this approach on every subject, and its something that probably has to be re-trained in the way we think.  By human nature we divied and classify things, the problem is sometimes we don't divied and classify into sufficient detail and that is where the mistakes in our inputs end up resulting in the mistakes in our conclusions.  Detail and precision are everything when trying to correctly analyze problems.

Lots of people say the world is a series of shades of grey.  I've come to the conclusion that if grey is being seen, then chances are the focus isn't detailed enough.  Chances are that grey is actually a bunch of blacks and whites if one were to bother focusing on the pixelation of the issue.

PS: if RR did get mugged for merely being part of the oil industry would you still feel the same way about blanket blaming?

Personally I support the war in Iraq, I think it was a needed action(regardless if 9/11 had happened),

Ouch!
I suppose you are disappointed, are you?
If not, no need to reply.  
I you are disappointed can you tell us what you expected and what made you think that your expectations were realistic?

My reason for supporting the war in Iraq was that the pre-existing no fly zone and embargo we were maintaining was costly to us, costly to the Iraqi people and didn't do much of anything against Saddam.  His rule and powerbase still pretty much did whatever they wanted within the confines of the no-fly zone and unfortunately Iraq is strategically located for causing problems with the whole world.  

Further while Saddam was somewhat insane, his boys who stood to ascend to the throne so to speak were even nuttier, and dealing with Iraq during the rule of the evil we knew I think was more advantagous, than dealing with Iraq during the rule of the evil we didn't know.  And Saddam was getting up there in years.

At the time, and given the intelligence provided I thought the case for WMDs was sufficient, especially as I was watching the UN become the laughing stock of the world because it lacked the teeth needed to enforce its own resolutions (not just the ones on WMDs but also the ones on humanitarian, and treaty clauses from Gulf War 1, and the internal corrupt oil for food programs).  Essentially the lead up to Iraq, and then outcry of the UN against the US led coalition sealed the UN as just another League of Nations in my book.

But back to Iraq.  My initial expectations were pretty much fully met with the initial offensive.  A crushing roll over within a few weeks of operations.  The subsequent rebuilding phase is where I think things are being botched, and where I think by our actions we have emboldened Islamic extremists and in the end given the appearance of a paper tiger(whether that appearance is true or not is irrelevant).

With the militants uprising around Iraq, and the soft response to those uprisings, the extremist Muslim mind sees in us a people unwilling to wage war to its fullest, and so as a result they now think that if they wage war more fully than us, they will win.  A philosophy that I worry may end up proving true.

My first opinion on how to handle Iraq's rebuilding differently would've been to split the country into its 3 ethnic portions and help each portion form their own constitutional democracy/republic (a variation of Sen. Biden's plan if I remember correctly).  This would've provided a useful tool to the Bush administration as it would've allowed them to first avoid rival power grabbing(and subsequent violence) from the sects, and further provide three examples of varying states of success and failure, and use those examples for both public relations to the American people and the world, and for a prod to those sectarian portions who were failing.

This would've also had the side benefit in that the Kurdish province(which had already hashed out a fairly good start to a working government ,with the beginnings of a basic constitution, during the no-fly zone period) could be used as a tool against Iran who controls several Kurdish dominated provinces and if properly supported, the US and Kurds could be doing to Iran, what Iran and the Shiites are doing to Iraq and the US now(a tool which might have helped to diffuse the current Iranian nuclear situation, or at least provided us another bargaining chip).

The other advantage in breaking up Iraq would've been a prevention of the entirety of Iraq falling into civil war as it risks currently doing.  If the Kurds, or Sunnis or Shiites had regional infighting in their portions I think the containment of that infighting would've been more easily handled.

Further, I think the use of force and reward would've been more dynamic in a split portioned Iraq.  In a province say like Falluja(sp?) where uprising had been fierce, a response of cordoning off the city, providing a 48 hour time table for civilians to leave(with the subsequent searching of weapons on those leaving), followed by a barrage of C130 gunships putting one bullet every square foot in the city(something that looks absolutely amazing in time lapsed photogrpahy), and therefore killing any person left inside would've removed the paper tiger the Muslims think they see now.  In otherwords the Muslims respect and fear strength, so show them American strength, but with the 48 hour evacuation we maintain our humanitarian obligations by allowing civilians to get out of the way.

In reverse, for those provinces which showed stability, peace and progress, rewards of additional aid and infrastructure would provide further encouragement to work with the US.  Essentially a re-enforcement of the "We can be your best friend or worst enemy" image.

Basically the lack of willingness to use overwhelming force and unequivically win peace through victory, combined with the lack of forsight in forcing 3 hostile factions to come together in one government not being ruled by tyrannical force is my problem with the administration of this war.  Two strategic policy mistakes in my opinion, which may cost us the whole shebang.

The untenable situation that existed with the embargo and no-fly is true, combined with the thought that the two nutty sons would rule with access to increasing oil wealth does make a good case that something had to be done.

However, invasion and occupation I don't think was evaluated as to the risks involved with it.

Your idea to level villages that have uprising, after humanitarianly warning the citizens might have some effect, however I'm not sure in practice it would be possible to carry it out in a humanitarian way since the bad guys would probably force the civilian population to stay and be slaughtered by our gunships through force, coercion etc.  But, it would do something and such tactics are what have been used by other occupations.  The Romans, I have been told would - if even one Roman soldier was killed would burn the village, sow the fields with salt and execute every adult male (age 12+ ?) and sell the women and children into slavery.  Successful occupations are brutal and not really something i think most Americans want to be in the practice of.  

I've had to go round about with a few arguments both pro and con about leveling a city in such a fashion.  Its not an easy thing to consider and I'm not suggesting the idea in a off the cuff cavalier way, but it does get a point across.  Also I'm not saying that leveling a city in every instance of war is the move to make, but against Islamic Extremists who respect and respond to naked raw power, its something I think needs to be considered.

One of the problems I think exists with modern warfare (that is war after WWII), is that the countries who are striving to keep peace amongst civilizations have tried to bring civilization to war.  War by its definition is a most uncivilized practice.

Tyrants and dictators have become less and less afraid of becoming aggressors and brutal killers.  I think a lot of this is because they know the UN, and those nations which give the UN its muscle(as little as that is) won't fully prosecute a war to its most terrible conclusions.  They hide behind the very rules of war we(Europe and the US) formed after WWII to try and limit civilian casualties.  This puts civilians directly in the path of harm as they become human shields.

I sometimes wonder if more civilians would be spared if we just made it a point to all aggressors that if they violate the rules of war, then we toss them also, and show true unrestrained destruction upon them and their armies.  Problem right now is we keep our hands tied while they fire Anti-Aircraft guns beside homes, or take up sniper positions from inside family's houses, or launch rockets from beside a UN watchpost, or suicide bomb markets, and disco studios.

They know we will play by the rules even if they don't.  And in their minds us staying by the rules is not a sign of strength and humanitarian restraint(as we view it), it is viewed as weakness, and an exploit in our armor.  And they will keep picking out at that chink in our armor until they finally cause us to seriously bleed or die from it.

Also I'm not saying that leveling a city in every instance of war is the move to make, but against Islamic Extremists who respect and respond to naked raw power, its something I think needs to be considered.

Well, we've done it before in Dresden and Hiroshima. I didn't approve of those either. I do believe in the protective use of force however. Just not the current administration's interpretation of it.

They know we will play by the rules even if they don't.

Yeah. Like Abu Ghraib. Like Guantanamo. (both violations of the Geneva Convention). Like cluster bombs. Like Falujah. I wish we did play by the rules rather than pretending to.

I'll disagree with you on the use of force on Hiroshima and Dresden, but that is another ball game.

As for Abu Graib, the people who committed those acts are being punished.  The system works, and we kept ourselves accountable.  If they had been ignored, then I would say the US failed its obligations.

As for Guantanamo, that subject is being hashed out right now in the legislature and courts.  Again the system is in the process of working it out.  It may be slow, and it may be imperfect but at least we have processes and law that we at least try to follow.  I doubt the terrorists give a flying flip about law.

Cluster Bombs, I don't think are illegal.  They are disdained and there is now fresh criticism of their use because of the Isreali-Lebanon situation, but technically I don't think any laws broken.  If I'm wrong please feel free to point out the section in international law banning their use.  I'm always up for learning something new for the day.

Falujah?  Please elaborate what greivance you are trying to insinuate here.  Preferably back it up with a reference so I can read for myself and come to some conclusions.  Falujah is in the news a lot, so just stating the place doesn't specify an incident.

Anyhow I'm off to go chill out for the evening.  SQL and the poorly maintained database I was converting has fried me out.

"As for Abu Graib, the people who committed those acts are being punished.  The system works, and we kept ourselves accountable.  If they had been ignored, then I would say the US failed its obligations."

Oh Really?  Care to prove that point.

Other than some low level scapegoats, show us one senior ranking civilian that has been tried and convicted for war crimes relating to AG.

I'm sorry, Prole. The only thing this proves is either your ignorance about Abu Ghraib or overwhelming partisanship. At least that's what I think. If you want to have a start-from-scratch, real debate/conversation about this issue - then please - start right here.

I'll keep it exclusive. Just me and you. If you need some help, I'll let you have Angry Chimp and AlistairC. Trust me, you will need them, they are good. I'll take Jack Greene to fact-check me. Other than that, I think I can prove myself.

Here. Read Bing West's article in latest Altantic Monthly. (C'mon fishies, fall for the bait, fall for the bait).

So damned if we do, and damned if we don't?

Fail to prosecute those who made the infractions and we are the worst human rights violators in the world!

Prosecute them, and it turns out that they are just scapegoats for the super secret shadow government!

It would be inconceivable to think that maybe, just maybe, we happened to have a collection of psychotic bored off their ass nitwit MPs who thought it might be fun to put these prisoners through some good old fashion college hazing, and have a real life edition of Jackass using Iraqi prisoners.  And by the way before it gets misconstrued, thats not an excuse for their behavior, its an indictment of it, and of the idiocy the American Public has for watching sadistic morons on TV and thinking its "cool".

"The system works, and we kept ourselves accountable."

Good Lord man, put down the Kool Aid!  

Do a google search for "Jamestown Kool-Aid Massacre"

See anything familiar? C'mon let's start being friends again. It's so much easier that way. Otherwise, I'll just keep on pretending. I'm serious. Maybe we need Hezbollah to broker the cease fire.

wouldn't that be "Jonestown"?
Yes it would be. Forgive me. I can never get the two straight. Surprisingly one get's similar results in Google.
As for Abu Graib, the people who committed those acts are being punished. The system works, and we kept ourselves accountable.

It does not matter what YOU think (we kept ourselves accountable), what matters is what THEY think.
No "mind control" available to you in muslim countries, ol'Rupert doesn't own the MSM over there.

Don't forget to apply for the Nobel Prize!

All's fair in war.  We're deluding ourselves if we think otherwise.  

Before WWII, bombing civilian targets was seen as barbaric.  By the end of the war, both sides were doing it.  Topped off with our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Eh? All's fair between me and you. (I think). WWII was a serious proving gound and mental exercise in this respect. WWI really didn't broach the subject.

Korea. Vietnam. Chechnya. Kosovo. Iraq 2003. (and especially) Lebanon 2006. Have really honed our(the world's) thinking on this one.

I guess my point is that "bombing civilian targets" has always been seen as barbaric. Just to what extent? And what does it mean about "us"(again, the world). I think these are more important issues.

What do the Chinese think?

The good thing about posters like T is he'll keep the kumbaya singing element of the peak oil "movement" off the board.
The subsequent rebuilding phase is where I think things are being botched

So you expected "the plan" to be true to the public statements, "building democracy"?

My first opinion on how to handle Iraq's rebuilding differently would've been to split the country into its 3 ethnic portions

You had your OWN plan!
And you expected TPTB to be aware of it and act accordingly?

In otherwords the Muslims respect and fear strength, so show them American strength, but with the 48 hour evacuation we maintain our humanitarian obligations by allowing civilians to get out of the way.

You think that the "insurgents" would have been stupid enough NOT TO EVACUATE along with the civilians?
Actually this is what they mostly did except for a few willing "martyrs" meant to take revenge.

It is true that "[Arabs] (NOT Muslims) respect and fear strength" but they are also tribalists keen on revenge and vendetta.
Once you have killed/wounded even ONE tribesman then you cannot get rid of the tribe short of blood money or ethnic cleansing.
Do you condone ethnic cleansing?
Would you have your tax dollars thrown at the families of the "nasty insurgents"?
This happened BTW, another "lack of teeth"...

In reverse, for those provinces which showed stability, peace and progress, rewards of additional aid and infrastructure would provide further encouragement to work with the US.

With Haliburton and likewise gobbling up 90% of the reconstruction budgets on "security & misc. expenses" and achieving less than 10% of the goals?

"We can be your best friend or worst enemy"

I guess Iraqis noticed mostly the "worst enemy" (Warning, GRUESOME)

Basically the lack of willingness to use overwhelming force

How do you use "overwhelming force" against IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices)?

If there were a Supidity Nobel Prize you will be the FIRST nominee!

P.S. To avoid any misunderstanding let me remind you that I am strongly anti-islamic.

<quote>If there were a Supidity Nobel Prize you will be the FIRST nominee!</quote>

First of all, no need to be nasty.  You asked for my opinion and I gave it honestly.  I don't just dismiss and call names at the people who auto-react in an anti-Iraq tirade.  I listen to their arguments, if they have any and either refute or consider them.  It is in fact my open mindedness to view both sides of the situation which has led me to my current position of the war was needed, but badly prosecuted.  

Most "pro-war" individuals I've met have almost no criticism for the current execution and likewise most Anti-war individuals refuse to even consider that Iraq was a problem that had to be dealt with either by war or some other means.  Both sides in their extremes are putting the plugs in their ears and refusing to see either the issue that Iraq originally represented before the war, or the problems our current handling of the war is causing.

So give me some credit in that I'm not toeing the Bush line and being a Yes man to the administration's every move.

I've never claimed to have all the answers, and while I've given the Iraq situation some thought, I'm neither a professional General nor a politician(President or Congressman) with better information gathering abilities and advisors.  I'm simply a citizen who is looking at the situation in Iraq, seeing a problem and thinking perhaps that a different approach may have been better.  

<quote>You had your OWN plan!
And you expected TPTB to be aware of it and act accordingly? </quote>

Not saying my approach is perfect, or even refined, just that it was another option that was mentioned and debated (Sen. Biden like I said brought it up), and it was dismissed by Rumsfeld in a press conference when a reporter asked about the option.  So the administration obviously had heard about the plan but chose against it.  I don't know their reasons for choosing against it, but I do have to wonder why they would throw away the Kurdish attempt at self-government during the no-fly period, and the choice not to use a divide and conquer approach to handling Ethnically hostile factions during the rebuilding phase.  Especially since this scenario in many ways is similar to the former Yugoslavia and subsequent Kosovo conflict.  This observation is perhaps more in focus now that I see how events are unfolding in hindsight, but when I first heard of the idea being hashed out, I thought that it sounded good then.  

<quote>You think that the "insurgents" would have been stupid enough NOT TO EVACUATE along with the civilians?
</quote>

They very well may have evacuated.  But in the process how many leaders might we have snagged in the process of them coming out.  Not saying this will net us every grunt stock soldier, but it would've flushed out leaders into our waiting blockade, and further, would've forced them to leave behind weapons and supplies they needed to prosecute their uprising.

Further if you took that action in conjunction with the 3 provinces solution, you would also provide a motivation for those Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni militias and their leaders to do something about the militants.  If you were in the running to be a head of the new Shiite or Sunni state would you want your cities being razed?  Or would you order your militias to find those militants before the US decided to raze another one.  Not much use in ruling a nation if there is no infrastructure left.

Also with a tri-State approach, you remove many of the militants we are fighting now because now a lot of the militants are sectarian fighters.  With the borders drawn an attack by militias across border would be easily tracable and punishable back to the province that committed it.  Currently with one large State the US is tied because it can't risk alienating one faction or the other for fear of bringing the whole country in Civil War.

<quote>Once you have killed/wounded even ONE tribesman then you cannot get rid of the tribe short of blood money or ethnic cleansing</quote>

Active Ethnic cleansing no, but if their whole tribe wants to make itself a target by committing to a vendetta then its not going to bother me if they self select themselves out of the species.

<quote>With Haliburton and likewise gobbling up 90% of the reconstruction budgets on "security & misc. expenses" and achieving less than 10% of the goals?
</quote>

Pretty numbers... proof please?  Preferably a listing of the projects they bid on in comparison with competitors, their current government assessment of completeness would be nice.  I've asked for this before from someone who quoted similar numbers, and they never could.  Or at least they never could find evidence that supported their outragous numbers.  Not saying Haliburton is a bunch of angels, but I think their depiction in Iraq by the left is a little excessive.

<quote>How do you use "overwhelming force" against IEDs </quote>

You don't... you use it against the guys making them.  That being said, again a tri-State solution would allow us to leverage local friendly militias in our efforts to monitor roads.  Currently since the militias are hostile, or luke-warm at best, we can't employ them in our effort to subdue the more extremist militants, because we can't trust the militias because they are busy fighting each other.

Again, I'll admit I'm playing armchair General, but I've heard a lot of ideas on the current situation and seeing that we are running into problems I think looking at alternatives is a valuable excercise.  Do I get or even want to make the calls... not really.  I don't envy the position of the President or any of the people involved in rebuilding Iraq.  Its a tough series of decisions and one that I think would heavily on anyone with any sort of decency.

"So give me some credit in that I'm not toeing the Bush line and being a Yes man to the administration's every move."

I give you credit.  The tactics you suggest are the things that should be discussed in congress before going into a war of conquest and occupation.  The complete destruction of cities and its inhabitants may be an effective example-making response in an occupation to resisting forces.  In the modern age, however the video images that such things generate would ferment worldwide opinion (as opposed to the much local effect that the Romans enjoyed).  The question is do we want to take on that task?  The debate was never had.  That debate will probably not be had in this case.  

However, at some point, when the Shiite military is trained and outfitted with modern weaponry and armor, the question will arise as to our response when they seek to put down Sunni opposition with brutal measures.  Mabe Iran will lend a helping hand to them.   I'm not taking sides, I just lament that these kinds of really forseeable eventualities were not seriously discussed in our democratic system before launching these events.  

First of all, no need to be nasty.

Whenever I encounter suspiciously devious arguments I usually think that the author has some concealed agenda.
But in your case all what you say is SO OUTSTANDINGLY STUPID that I don't believe it can be faked.

Do you have any opinions that you would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your peers?

If the answer is no, you might want to stop and think about that. If everything you believe is something you're supposed to believe, could that possibly be a coincidence? Odds are it isn't. Odds are you just think whatever you're told.


You keep repeating that my ideals are stupid, but you have not offered up any other alternatives yourself.  For someone with a lot of name calling criticism, you have not offered up any alternatives or support for the effectiveness of those alternatives regarding this situation.  All you can do is say other ideas are bad without having any good ones yourself.  

Tell me, if you don't support a tri-state system what would you support instead?

If you don't think overwhelming force would help to put the militants down, then what would you do?

We are in Iraq now, and we need an exit strategy.  So tell me, how would YOU get out of this problem?

You seem to have a lot of venom aimed at tearing people down.  Now lets see if you have something constructive to add to the argument.  You don't think we should be in Iraq, so tell me how do we get out in a timely manner and preferably in a manner that won't leave that country and possibly the region in chaos?

Like I said, I'm willing to listen to the arguments, and I'm even courteous enough to keep my tongue civil, a disability I'm overlooking in your case in an effort to get a glimpse into the mindset of an opposing viewpoint.  So could you at least oblige my restraint and time spent on this argument with an alternative solution you think would work?

I'd love to learn more about the mindset you hold, that is if you even have one on this matter beyond a kneejerk reaction of anti-war, anti-war, anti-war.  Convince me...  Win me to your argument.  Here's a hint though: name calling won't get you very far.

You keep repeating that my ideals are stupid, but you have not offered up any other alternatives yourself.

Of course I "have not offered up any other alternatives", I am not here to "save the world", just to save my ass and a few things I like or love.
I only mind about my business, why don't you mind about YOUR fucking business, why doesn't the US mind about THEIR fucking business?

Tell me, if you don't support a tri-state system what would you support instead?

Actually I am in favor of the tri-state system, but I am not "supporting" it, I don't try to meddle in others business when I have no (or not much) involvement in it.

If you don't think overwhelming force would help to put the militants down, then what would you do?

NOT MY FUCKING BUSINESS, once more!

We are in Iraq now, and we need an exit strategy. So tell me, how would YOU get out of this problem?

I am European not American so I will refer to Henry Kissingers' wisdom "too bad they can't both lose."

You seem to have a lot of venom aimed at tearing people down.

That's only a personal inclination, why do you mind?

I'd love to learn more about the mindset you hold, that is if you even have one on this matter beyond a kneejerk reaction of anti-war

I am not strictly "anti-war", in some cases you don't choose, but if you have the opportunity to choose (NOT to attack!) it is usually NOT COST EFFECTIVE politicians are underestimating costs by an order of magnitude.

Here's a hint though: name calling won't get you very far.

Here's another hint, ask yourself WHY what seems "obvious" to you seem UTTERLY STUPID to many others.
To this effect I suggest you read the link I provided already, here's another quote from it:

When people are bad at math, they know it, because they get the wrong answers on tests. But when people are bad at open-mindedness they don't know it. In fact they tend to think the opposite.

  1. Would it be possible that you could string seven or eight sentences together to form a paragraph, without any capital letters except the ones starting sentences? Without any links or italics or underlining.

  2. Do you know any jokes? Or are you always this serious?
... Without any links or italics or underlining.

Italics nearly always are for quotations from the posts I am replying to.
All these gimmicks have a point, too bad they are resounding too much in your ebullient brain, it means they work OK for most "normal" people.

Do you know any jokes?

Sometimes, but you have to follow the links or read the whole post.

Or are you always this serious?

I am most often when I speak to criminals and bastards.
Please note that though I am making fun of you once in while I am not "attacking" you.

Not your business?  That is your answer?

Isolation...  That is your grand answer?  Hope nobody has to depend on you for saving their lives.  I'd hate for the last words they hear to be "It's not my business".

As for open mindedness...  Who here is being the more close minded?  The guy who responded to your question with an honest opinion and asked for a return dialogue, or the guy who has resorted to insults, and belittling.  I think you sir are the topic of the very article you keep throwing in my face.  Pot, allow me to introduce you to kettle.

At any rate, I may be stupid, but at least I'm polite, and caring of my fellow human beings, and its a tag I would rather carry around any day of the week, over being calloused and self-interested.

Anyhow have fun being Island.

I'm just trying to defend the human emotional institution of blame.  Blame is on a fundamental level dismissal of the good things a person has done, or the good people in an organization dominated by bad ones.  Everybody has a good side, somewhere - pure, utter evil is a construct of the second or third person perspective.  But accountability for their actions must remain for the functioning of society.  You prosecute a Nobel Peace Prize winner who goes on to commit murder, because there is no alternative.  What's the difference between that and going after a corporation that has practiced, say, price fixing, if it causes hundreds or thousands of people at the bottom to lose their jobs?

I would regard RR getting mugged as a highly unfortunate consequence of civil unrest caused by high gas prices.  Just as I would regard two patriotic soldiers who happen to be on opposite sides of the front killing each other, unfortunate consequences of a war.

Perhaps those high gas prices were caused by price manipulation.  Perhaps not.  Perhaps that war wasn't warranted.  Perhaps it was necessary.  But among rational discourse (rather than muggings), we call out the entire organization by name, and if we find fault, try to find where responsibilities were ignored (somewhere to place blame) at the top, the ones making the decisions.

Take the statement - "BP appears to have neglected their pipelines."  How would you render that sentence quickly, with your approach, while avoiding sentiments that might cause potential muggings of lower-level BP employees by people frustrated by high gas prices?  Especially when it's not crystal clear where responsibility lies?

I think our problem lies here - Corporations are created explicitly as a mechanism to make it easier to avoid blame[to limit liability].  We're trying to judge them and deal with them on moral grounds as monolithic decision making entities.  It's difficult, and might have collateral damage, but removing potential accountability entirely is not an option.  We can only try(imperfectly) to channel wrath at the people who most deserve it.

I think our problem lies here - Corporations are created explicitly as a mechanism to make it easier to avoid blame[to limit liability].

Exactly.  As my sister (a lawyer) says, corporations have all the rights of individuals, but none of the responsibilities.

Exactly.  As my sister (a lawyer) says, corporations have all the rights of individuals, but none of the responsibilities.

And there is where I think our law has failed the people.  The fact that corporations have more previlege than citizens is a gross injustice to our constitution.  I think the idea of corporations is actually a good one, but the law handling them needs a WHOLE lot of refinement.


I think the fundemental problem with most of the first worlds corporations lies in our tax structure not the corp itself.

They are taxed quarterly on profits thus the drive for short term gains there is really nothing like a 401k for a company to allow it to put money into long term programs and growth.

Second is the shareholder structure of public companies.

There is little incentive for companies to invest in both people and projects over a long term.

I actually think one of the few benefits of a post peak world is that people and companies will focus much more on long term solutions and projects.

In the past for example research paid off very well for most big companies but after the low hanging fruit was picked in research dropped dramatically. If you look at it it really was because it became more difficult for the inventor in corporations to create new technology on there own and the time lines for sanctioned research began to extend to far beyond the quarterly profit model of most corporations.

I think this example highlights some of the fundamental problems intrinsic with the design of modern corporations.

Its fascinating to consider how many of our institutions that we take for granted are tied to the concept of a growth economy.

You and the following posters just hijacked the thread.

Now instead of following the subject one has to listen to hashed over arguments about Iraq.  

DON'T WORRY!
It happens all the time, no cure in sight, not really a problem either...

Hijacking is a strange bird. It's not illegal. There are no real rules against it in cyberworld.

Hijacking is about redirecting the thought process. Some of us are still perfecting the methods. Advertising, we have learned, is perfectly useless.

It is a crime to be "off topic." Never a crime to hijack. Hijacking can be extremely subtle. In Fact, it is THE most effective when nobody knows. I know because I am the master.

I can get you to go wherever I want.

Just sit back and enjoy.

HP.
"Invent."
You bet.
Pretext.

Ooooh. You get it now.

"Personally I support the war in Iraq, I think it was a needed action(regardless if 9/11 had happened), I think the ideals set forth by Bush at its inception were good ones"

------

Oh boy.

I don't think Ken Lay is really being crucified anymore.  Once he died everyone pretty much forgot about him.  Bad or good, he's dead now and it's time to move on.  
So we can't blanket criticize ANY industry, because there always exist bottom tiers who havn't participated in wrongdoing?

The question is, just who has participated in wrongdoing? You are implying that there are few low-level people in the organization who are innocent. I say that very few people within most organizations have participated in unethical or illegal behavior. What we are being criticized for, mainly, is for making money. I would bet that over 90% of the anti-oil articles are focused on profits.

I'm tired of all this "Criticizing the war is attacking our courageous troops" bull, and I think everyone else is too.

What war? When people say "Big Oil is ripping us off", they ARE criticizing the troops. Big Oil is not a person. It is the entirety of the employees and shareholders of oil companies. I have no problem with criticisms of specific policies of oil companies, such as those who deny global warming. But I do have a problem with all of these blanket "they are ripping us off, so let's get even" claims.

And when people percieve they are being screwed, they have a right to get angry.

If someone is unhappy that it was cloudy this morning, they also have a right to get angry. But they don't have a right to hurl venom at and insult the weatherman. People's perceptions can be wrong. They often are with respect to this industry. They can get angry all they want. That right extends up to the point that they direct that anger in my direction. Then, I have the right to respond, as I have done here.

What we are being criticized for, mainly, is for making money. I would bet that over 90% of the anti-oil articles are focused on profits.

It's a grand old liberal tradition to criticize successful business for being successful and profitable, and it's one that I have no patience with in most cases.

However, Big Oil is different than, say, Microsoft: Big Oil is an extractive industry, which is to say that they convert a non-renewing natural resource for profit.  One can argue that non-renewing natural resources are, most properly, a common good.  On that basis, I would say that it is reasonable to put an upper limit on the profitability of such activities that one would not impose on a company that provided services, knowledge, or manufactured goods.

And, yes, of course this same logic would apply to mining operations, as well as non-sustainable forestry practices (i.e. most of them).

Having said that, I have no illusions that the public has any understanding of these fine distinctions.  They're just pissed off, and looking for someone to blame.

Perhaps I am reducing this too much, but it just seems like a case of the addict blaming the dealer for the price of his fix...sorry if that's too simple an analogy but I can't get any further with it than that.  If you don't like oil company profits, buy less of the product.
Hear, hear!

Now all we need is public demand for means of cutting or eliminating their consumption, and products and services to serve that demand.

My wife told me one day that sometimes she is embarrassed to tell people what I do for a living. I got angry. I told her that this does a disservice to everyone in the industry. It does a disservice to people who put their lives on the line to supply the transportation industry. I told her that she should never be embarrassed, but if someone gives her grief she can send them to me.

I wear my refinery jacket out in public all of the time, and I have had perfect strangers complain to me about gas prices. Sooner or later, it will probably get me assaulted. But I have a hard head and I am very feisty, so I usually engage the complainers. Nine times out of ten, they come away with a better understanding of why gas prices are what they are.

Can you imagine what would happen if the oil industry just shut off the taps for a month? The entire transportation industry would grind to a halt. People couldn't get to work. People couldn't take vacations. Food couldn't get to the stores. Forest fires would just have to burn. Our military would grind to a halt. Yet people take this industry completely for granted, and treat us with contempt. It sickens me.

By the way, do you still work for COP? In Texas, would be my guess?

I was born in Texas. My dad worked at the Borger refinery. H2S nearly took his life twice. I worked on the refined products pipeline that goes from Borger to Chicago. I also worked at the Sweeny refinery near Houston. I'm what they refer to as controls engineer, which is as you probably know, sort of a combination of an electrical engineer and a software engineer. I left that industry for the automotive industry some years back, and have been back to the oil business twice. Designing power generation systems for dynamically positioned drillships, and the gas turbine business. It's been a wild ride.

Great rant by the way.

"My wife told me one day that sometimes she is embarrassed to tell people what I do for a living. I got angry."

Robert,

I was going to add this as an addendum to one of my other posts. My sense is you are a bit sensitive about exactly this and thus going overboard in your defense of the industry, hence the rather poor argument that because you get to take a day off to build a home, your industry is thus socially responsible.

Look, who the fuck cares what people think? Heck the people giving you shit are probably the 40% who according to a CNN poll couldn't even name the year 9/11 took place.

You got to have a sense of humor about this stuff. Figure out some witty responses that slyly say, "fuck you asshole" but in a funny and cleaver way and have them ready when people start bitching. I'll think of some and post em here. I'm good at that type of thing. What is a typical first sentence they say to you? (Of course delivered sans my dashingly handsome good looks and general charm they might not have the same effect.)

Just to let you know, I'm looking at some land for my apocalyptic relgious cu . . . . I mean ecocommune and I'm hoping it will have a stripper well or two so I will still be able to enjoy some of the fruits of petroleum. If the lumpen proles come for you post-peak oil I will provide you shelter and a job at my cult . . . . I mean commune.

I was going to add this as an addendum to one of my other posts. My sense is you are a bit sensitive about exactly this and thus going overboard in your defense of the industry, hence the rather poor argument that because you get to take a day off to build a home, your industry is thus socially responsible.

That's not what I said. I specifically addressed the argument that corporations "lack any sense of social responsibility." Corporations do socially responsible things all the time. I provided an example. I could have provided many more, just from my own company. That does not imply that an entire industry is socially responsible, but it indicates that they don't "lack any sense of social responsibility."

Big deal. I'm sure even Dick Cheney himself gives money to some socially repsonsbile causes. Does that mean Dick Cheney has a sense of social responsiblity? On balance, I would say "hell no."
Matt,

Do you have a comment section on your blog? A message board?

Also, what is this about Dick Cheney? Do you have some other profound wisdom you'd like to share with us about Hitler? Cheney is easily the most hated person on the planet currently. So kind of you to pick a hard target.

"On balance?" I thought you were a lawyer. What the hell does that mean? "On balance?" You don't like Dick Cheney. That's your argument?

Start laying something more than this down or get off of Robert's back.

There's no need for this. There really isn't. You can't find some other time to rip the oil industry. You needed this opportunity? C'mon. What is going on with you?

As I pointed out in another post when talking about Ken Lay...  So full of anger and hatred do some people get that they cannot even see the fullness (good and evil) of the person they hate, or even the fullness of the actions they take because of those emotions, even when in some cases those actions do more to spite themselves, than the person they hate.
dude you are totally projecting here. I have no ill will towards these people, including Ken Lay and I live in California. Maybe that gets lost in the written word. My view is human beings are inherently self-interested, ie corrupt. And that all 6.5 billion of us evolved from a relatively small gene pool. Hence the subconscioous algorithms and their conscious rationalizations that dictate out behavior are virtually indistinguishable from person to person.  As weird as it might sound to some, we're all (almost) exactly like Ken Lay or George Bush just sans the massive wealth and power wielded by those men.
Then I have an issue with a fundamental premise you are operating on.

Why does "self-interested" have to translate to corrupt?

True a lot of corruption is motivated by self-interest.

But then a lot of good is motivated by self-interest also even if it is sometimes indirect.  If I offer to help mow the lawn of my elderly neighbor, I get a feeling of pride, I also get a better looking home (since my neighbor's yard isn't left in disarray), and who knows, I may even get some warm chocolate chip cookies from that sweet old lady.  In the end, that non-self-interested offer of help resulted in many self-interested objectives.

If I decide to take my bike to work in order to save myself a few bucks on gas and get some excercise, do those benefits mean its corrupt that I also happen to be helping the environment and our energy problem?

Self-interest in many cases has as much to do with quality of life of your neighbors as it does the quality of life for yourself.

I have to totally disagree with your entire premise.  Just by looking out at the world it should be easy to see that there is quite a wide variation in attitudes and personalities.  One of the worst disservices you can do yourself is to go around with the preconceived notion that we're all the same.  It's not true and it can put you at a severe disadvantage in understanding other people's motives.  

We all have good and bad aspects, and it's good to accept that.  But that's not the same as saying we're all just like Hilter or Bush or anyone else.  Not everyone will act the same way even in indentical circumstances.  Even identical twins have unique personalities.  

Furthermore saying all humans are inherently self interested is just bullshit.  We didn't evolve as social animals by just being self interested.  While it's "cool" to talk about how worthless humans are, the reality is we've evolved to work in groups and look out for each other.  We help ourselves by helping others.  Yes, we may stand to possibly get something indirectly in return, but that doesn't mean our only motives are selfish in nature.  

I'm not "ripping the industry." Sure I think it is being run as a criminal syndicate at the highest levels but that is true about pretty much anything big these days. (Microsoft, as an example) And I use cheap petroleum products as much as anybody and for that I am thankful to our overlords at Halliburton, Shell, BP, and others.

REally, unlike others, I hold no ill-will towards the oil industry. In some weird ways, my own fate is indirectly tied to the fate of the oil industry. The higher the price goes, the better the biggies do. And the higher the price goes, the more people come to my site, buy books, sun ovens, etc.

I do have a forum: http://www.latocforum.com

Thanks for responding, Matt. You've saved my day. I almost had to create a Resevoir Dogs piece with Robert, You, and I playing Mr.Blonde, Mr.White, and Mr. Pink. I hope you've seen the movie.

Maybe some other time. Now I can log-off in peace. And in one piece.

and Robert, the main point of my post was to tell to say to you, "fuck the haters, who cares what they think?"
"The work that the oil industry has done over the past 100 years easily rivals the space program."

In many ways, yes.  Particularly in the petro-chemical area with materials, medicines, argicultural etc. products.  The techniques to probe and extract are very impressive in their scale but a little less so in terms of technology.  The fuel use of of oil is the least impressive and probably has enabled the most problems, but that's not so much the oil company's issue - except to the extent that they conspired to create (or at least accelerate greatly) the market for individual transportation by, for example, actively working against public, electrical-powered transportation.

Yes but it's been a very profitable industry to be in.  Texas was built on it.

If you look at the world's 100 largest companies in 1900, it turns out that very few are still around.  however the major oil companies are in mutated form.

I don't denigrate what the oil industry has done, although, increasingly the evidence on global warming suggests that we made a very Faustian bargain, going for an oil fueled civilisation.

But it was done for profit, not out of some altruistic impulse.  If mining zinc had been as critical to industrial civilisation, the people and the money would have gone and mined zinc.

Robert, your case is convincing to me. As I am not a California resident, the proposition does not affect me directly.

Stepping back a moment, it has become apparent to me that there are two forms of political cluelessness about energy -- 1) liberal and 2) conservative. This dichotomy is a natural result of our polarized political system

Proponents of #1 seem good intentioned but they are really just bashing Big Oil. This is painful to me because my politics are liberal. When Amy Goodman, who can be good on social issues, talks about fossil fuels, I just have to tune it out. Wind, solar, biofuels. Sounds good, doesn't it? These are same fools that don't want wind farms off Nantucket sound or LNG processing plants anywhere near where they live. And everything is a conspiracy. When the oil & gas supply gets even tighter, they'll be the first ones begging for more. No clue on that side.

On the other side, the solution is to give more tax breaks and subsidies of other kinds to Big Oil or Coal. Magically, this business as usual strategy will solve our problems. More E&P and investment will always do the trick. Wrong. Politically, the current regime and those in the fossil fuels business are sleeping side by side. Hell, they are often the same people. There's a lot of corruption going on. I could go on. No clue here either.

So, Proposition 87 is a "liberal" fallacy meant to counter the dominant "conservative" fallacy. By the way, Californians are not noted for their firm grounding in reality. The state represents the ultimate "Happy Motoring" utopia. That's why people left areas like Pittsburgh, where I live, to go there after World War II.

Earth to advocates, Earth to advocates, this is Planet Earth calling, come in. Please respond.

it has become apparent to me that there are two forms of political cluelessness about energy -- 1) liberal and 2) conservative.

The political system may be polarized, but the average American is less so.  I think John Q. Public will happily cling to both liberal and conservative forms of cluelessness.  That is, he will blame Big Oil, tree-hugging environtalists and greedy Arabs.  And maybe government conspiracy, too.  

I was talking about political advocates but speaking of the people...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFZ7P2p1KrE

our governor at his day job

I agree 100%.  

It's really that there are short-term thinkers (enviros, and exploiters) and long-term thinkers.  IMO, you need to consider both time scales when making public policy, but in recent history, the pendulum has swung firmly to the side of the short-term swamping out the long term.  You can pretty much see the result in every aspect of modern life.    

It's really that there are short-term thinkers (enviros, and exploiters)

I would not think of most "enviros" as short-term thinkers, would you care to elaborate what makes you think so?

I don't know if I would say 'most' either.  What I mean is that some well-meaning people seek to address in a reactionary way the problems they see without considering what the long-term results will be.  Unintendend (but forseeable) consequences is another way to look at it.  Local optimization at the expense of the global is another.  Its ironic because usually people who do this type of thing think they are acting in the global good but I guess its a failure to recognize political, regulatory and human nature environment that they operate in.  

One example is getting development banned in an area or density reduced to 'preserve' it, only to have the development leap-frog to farther out areas contributing to the vehicle miles travelled rate of increase.  

I think in this example, the larger environmental movement has learned a lot from past failures and now works more realistically to promote a better systems approach to the solution rather than reacting to every problem so directly.  

Likewise, those that mine or drill for a resource seem to react to what they see as their interest (profit) in a short term reactionary way, rather than a long term, sustaining kind of way.  

I hate to compare environmentalists and for-profit resource exploiters (but those resources are valuable and useful to society I think) and there are certainly many many (most) ways in which they are uncomparable - certainly at the goals/motivation level.  But, we would all be better off if all segments of society would look longer-term, including the 'quarterly-report' mentalility in the for-profit world.  I mean, I think the 'companies' would be better off if they did that.  Is the problem the greedy shareholders ?  I must admit to being part of that problem at times.  
 

90 day bottom line.  The source of a lot of stupidity and resource wastefulness.

How many times do here of a company firing people to save cost without even realizing that the people they are firing are the ones actually helping them to make money in the long run.  But hey who cares, that 90 days of "profit" is all that matters.

But, we would all be better off if all segments of society would look longer-term, including the 'quarterly-report' mentalility in the for-profit world.

In the sense that NYMBYism and BANANA are the individual versions of corporate egoism, yes, but damage from corporations is currently orders of magnitude larger than direct damage from individuals.
Though it could be argued that ALL damage comes from individual egoism indirectly this does not stand a serious systemic analysis.

Is the problem the greedy shareholders ? I must admit to being part of that problem at times.

It may sound paradoxical but I don't agree that "greedy shareholders" are the problem.
Shareholders cannot be anything but greedy, WHY SHOULD THEY CARE?
The "ethical approach" to such problems is bound to fail EVERYTIME, don't we have enough examples?
It is the LAWS, STRUCTURES and INSTITUTIONS which should provide the balance to individual greed with a long term goal of bending the usages such that the ethical concerns DO TAKE HOLD after a while, but this can only be after a while.

Leannan, you're right, the people will blame everybody else instead of looking at their own behaviour. Peak Oil isn't very important to a NYC resident that doesn't own a car and rides public transportation.
  I think it behooves all of us to examine our own energy behaviour and change so that we set a good example for others in the world-particularly people in the oil patch.
In which case said NYC resident isn't thinking systemically.

NYC is full of goods in shops: they got there by transport.  I may not drive to WalMart, but the goods I buy come to me, the restaurants I eat in, etc.

The NYC region is a major port-- again transportation.

And of course the region has 3 (3!) of the world's largest and busiest airports.  Again, a petroleum-fuelled activity.

And the lights come on when they flick the switch: part of that is combined cycle gas turbines, and part is coal, fueled by coal brought by diesel-fueled barges and trains.

It's true that the average NYC resident probably burns less fuel, directly or indirectly, than the average US resident.  But that doesn't mean that NYC is somehow immune from the problems of the world oil industry.

And of course there is global warming.  Plausible predictions say by 2050, parts of NYC will be under almost constant flooding threat from storm surges.  On the latest data from the Greenland ice caps, sea surface temperatures, etc., it could all happen a lot sooner than that.

I predict Prop 87 will pass, primarily because people see it as a way to stick it to Big Oil. I am not so sure about this. You forget:
  1. California and Big Oil have always been together. Oil has been produced here in large amounts since the 1870s. Chevron had its headquarters in downtown San Francisco until 2001 when they moved to nearby San Ramon because it was cheaper. There are still huge amounts of oil produced from wells all over the state and the industry has lots of employees here.
  2. Californians love to drive and hate paying more to do it. Don't you remember this? "Gov.-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger says his first action upon taking office will be repealing the car tax, one of the factors in Gray Davis' demise as California's leader." http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/09/recall.main/index.html
  3. The Central Valley of California is an agricultural area that uses lots of gasoline. Before I moved here, I had no idea how much agriculture exists here. For things like fruits and vegetables, there is no region that comes close. I wonder if they would support this proposition.
I grew up in blue collar, gritty Buffalo, NY, and I had a lot of ideas about California that proved incorrect when I moved to San Francisco.
For things like fruits and vegetables, there is no region that comes close. I wonder if they would support this proposition.

Your comments are spot on. Agriculture appears to be in opposition:

WHY THE CALIFORNIA AGRICULTURE INDUSTRY OPPOSES PROP 87

Of course, most California agriculture is built on water pumped in from somewhere else (even intra-state water).  Without massive state intervention, and big energy use (for the pumped part), agriculture in California would be very much smaller (and different)-- most of California is actually a desert.  Some day, I suspect, it will be again-- it's not efficient to grow lettuce and rice with massively subsidised water.

Noting gasoline consumption per person in California, which is something like the 10th lowest in the country, it would appear that Californians, despite being car bound, do something about saving gas.  Given the GDP per head (very high), this surprised me: as they say in NYC 'who knew?'

Another few thousands of hand-wringing words about prop87. OK be as thoughtful/ranting as you like. In the end it matters little to me. I will vote for the proposition because it's critical to me that oil consumption be reduced by any means practical. Effects of taxes and other goverment policies are always a mixture of good and bad and maddeningly inconsistent in their promotion. One could easily spill just as many words about income tax, sales tax, water policy, forest management, etc, etc.

The perfect is the enemy of the good.  Let's try to reduce oil consumption. The literal survival of millions of people may depend on it.

I will vote for the proposition because it's critical to me that oil consumption be reduced by any means practical.

Which is the only reason I didn't provide a harsher assessment of the proposition. :-) I do believe it will reduce oil consumption, just not in the way the proponents claim. This is not going to hit the oil companies the hardest. It will hit those who can barely afford gasoline the hardest.

One could easily spill just as many words about income tax, sales tax, water policy, forest management, etc, etc.

And they probably do at The Water Drum and The Forest Drum. :-)

That's correct high oil prices will hit those who can least afford to pay the hardest. So what. Then its up to them to lobby their representatives to support public transportation. I'm sorry but till its to painful for a far fraction of Americans to drive we are not going to get the transportation infrastructure we need for the post peak world. I'd love to see a 2 dollar a gallon fuel tax across the board today. Sure a lot are going to be hurt but better hurt now while we have the oil at a stable price to change then later when oil is swinging by up to 30 dollars in price. I'm sorry but I have little sympathy for Americans over oil regardless of personal wealth. We as a country have really shafted the world and our own children and its time to act responsibility for our actions. We are also a democracy and if responsible energy policies cause difficulties for the majority of Americans then they can damned well vote for representatives that will support actions to ensure they can can continue to live a reasonable life under such policies. Sorry for the rant but sooner are later we are going to start making some pretty hard choices.
Problem with such a tax is that the politician that dares to utter it, is likely to get voted out of power by those very same pissed off Americans.  Therefore a tax like that is probably a pipe dream.

Bread and Circus anyone?

I think that tide may be turning, despite the Club for Growth and its best efforts.

Americans will pay more taxes, if they can see the benefits.

That's correct high oil prices will hit those who can least afford to pay the hardest. So what.

My point is that the Prop 87 proponents are promising just the opposite.

Otherwise, I agree with your position. It will take pain before we begin to seriously deal with the problem. $3 gasoline was not enough to take a serious bite out of our consumption. I would also like to see much higher gasoline taxes, but I think you should offset those taxes with some tax breaks for lower-income Americans in order to have a chance of passing it (and to give people some time to transition). Odds are they wouldn't spend this money just to make up their gas tax; they would begin a shift toward public transportation and fuel efficient vehicles.


We all know the Oil companies will find a way to pass on any costs associated with Prop 87. I've not even consider the remote possibility that this will not happen.

As far as spreading the pain and trying for tax break.
I don't agree a flat 2 dollar a gallon tax is whats needed.
It can of course be ramped up over a period of years say 25 cents every 6 months over two years. At worst ramp up over four years.

Use the money to build light rail upgrade city housing for low income people subsidize rail/bus passes for low income.

The beauty of an aggressive and heavy tax is the money can be spent in this country to convert if you wait till oil is very expensive then the cost of conversion increases enormously. If we are serious about peak oil then a heavy immediate tax with the monies going back into our infrastructure is a must.

From the American redneck's view point you could say the tax is very American since by spending the money here today we won't be sending it overseas to the Arabs later.

Continuing to support the gasoline addiction of Americans esp ones who can barely afford it today is not and option.

One of the first things that has to come to a end in America is this concept of codling people we need to focus on defining a new decent low energy way to live and make it the new American lifestyle.

I think that if someone with the economic background could analyse the costs of developing the electric rail infrastructure we have discussed using various scenarios you would find that the approach I'm suggesting is not only reasonable but far better then the alternatives.  In all cases it will be painful.

Consider a aggressive tax with current prices.
Rising prices no tax.
Rising prices tax applied late but with subsidies.

The problem is the rising price of oil is like the central banks interest rates. It tends to greatly inflate the cost of every thing since it effects every step of manufacturing and transportation.

I'd like to add that I'm not heartless but I have lived overseas and lived in Vietnam for a year so I've seen real poverty and starvation that makes the lives of most Americans look like a dream so maybe my perspective is different but I think its realistic.  I realized that Americans today really don't understand how bad life can get.

Nothing against Memmel personally BUT...piss off on your tax and gas increases!!!!!!

We are not all soccer moms and bloated assholes out here.

Some of us po boys have to make a survival living by putting ourselves into the system in order to pay bills and support ourselves.
Sure I am retired and I could get by (barely) but I work daily with men who can barely feed their children, have no medical, are working long long hard hours in agricultural and associated jobs,breath grain dust and destroy their lungs. Life in the hinterlands is not the same as the burbs.

Sure kill the fuckers off who are screwing the planet and then what do you do with the 'poor,white and pissed off' residue? The Christian Right Wing Nuts with Guns(likened unto those who were our founding fathers)?

Running the price of gas and diesel way up just to screw the yuppies and fatasses is not solving the problem. As many state , those who can afford it will still keep paying the price. The corollary is those who CAN'T afford it will find greatly reduced living standards and the price of everything will continue to rise.

The working classes of this country are what Joe Bageant speak of so eloquently. Might give him a read on this.

www.joebageant.com

And btw phuck Kalifornia as well.  

Are you telling me not everybody in AMerican is rich enough to have spare time to discuss political matters on the internet?
I'll guaran-dAMn-tee you that.
Rich Merkuns vs rednecky folks.

Don't know bout 'all' AMericans but for the farmer/operator types you might want to check this website to see how they lean politically,noting that these are a bit further up the food chain than the lower castes fishbait down below in the silt at the bottom.

http://talk.newagtalk.com/category-view.asp

IMO Begeant pretty much nails it down. He does rant somewhat but hey, "I love the smell of a good rant early in the morning."

DUVALL

Kilgore: Charlie don't surf!

Kilgore: You either surf or you fight.

Kilgore: If I say it's safe to surf this beach Captain, then it's safe to surf this beach. I mean I'm not afraid to surf this place, I'll surf this whole fucking place!

Kilgore: Smell that? You smell that?
Lance: What?
Kilgore: Napalm, son. Nothing in the world smells like that.

Kilgore: I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' dink body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...

Exactly where I lifted the quote.

I like DuVall(Duvall?) and the movie. I also watched Syriana and read both of Baer's books.

I also thought Jarhead was its equal or better and played out on the set of oil lands and deserts, apocalypatic if you will, both of them.  

Aside: Someone asked me why marines enlist.Since I used to hang with some marines back in the ye cold war dayse, I replied "the reason is that they 'want to kill'"(the enemy that is) but basically that is their teachings. Exemplified pretty much truly by the movie Jarhead and Full Metal Jacket, as well to a lesser degree.

In Jarhead they run the movie Apocalypse Now in the dayroom  and the gyrenes go rather nutsy. THis followed by a video 'Dear John' that was classic,absolute classic.

Some of us po boys have to make a survival living by putting ourselves into the system in order to pay bills and support ourselves.

Sure I am retired and I could get by (barely) but I work daily with men who can barely feed their children, have no medical, are working long long hard hours in agricultural and associated jobs,breath grain dust and destroy their lungs. Life in the hinterlands is not the same as the burbs.

Let's talk about this. It is certainly the many retired and lower-income working people who will be hurt the most by price increases. They have been hurt over the past year by price increases. But what do you think is going to happen to people after oil production peaks? They are going to be crushed by high prices.

This is exactly why so many of us favor higher gas taxes now. It would encourage people to start using less fuel. I, along with many others, believe there is a way to implement such a tax without hurting the retired and lower-income workers. Let's work together here and see if we can come up with a solution that you could agree with.

First, I presume we are on the same page that fossil fuel consumption, in general, needs to be reduced? The most efficient means that I have seen for reducing fossil fuels is by increasing prices. I have lived in Europe and I have seen how very high gas prices have affected their way of life - for the better. Public transportation is cheap and available everywhere, cars are fuel efficient, and they don't have suburbs constantly encroaching on the farmland.

So, let's say that we agree that higher gas prices would in fact encourage a move toward a more sustainable lifestyle. Let me know if you disagree. I believe that we need to make any such tax increase revenue neutral for those who can least afford it. So, what I want to do is to figure out how much money this will take from the average retiree's budget, and I want to give that back to you as a tax credit. You haven't been hurt by the tax increase, and you will in fact be in the money if you increase your fuel efficiency.

Where would you have a problem with this idea? Do you think it would work? If we don't do something like this, how do you think Peak Oil is going to affect most retirees?

must be adequately protected

I believe that we need to make any such tax increase revenue neutral for those who can least afford it.

Yes, a transfer tax, revenue neutral carbon tax is the way to go. Westexas supports it, Alan ftBE supports it, hell, even I support it. The response is always no politician would be seen dead raising taxes. How can we get beyond this response?

Robert,
Sorry for the delay in replying. I would love to discuss this issue with you but I do not have facts and figures, nor charts at my fingertips. In fact I have little except personal observations.

As to being a retiree , I am an anomaly where I live. Its where I was born and raised but most here never worked for large corporations nor have retirement pensions. Only those who hold some type of government state job, such as road workers or school teachers or work in local government.

Huge numbers are therefore on welfare of differing types. Those that 'retire' do so just solely on Social Security, as low as that is. Some just on SSI which is lower yet.

In any event we are the residents of small towns and communities scattered across the vast 'flyover'. We are basically your 'infrastructure' as regards farming. These are the ones who do not practice conspicious consumption for they tend to have very little left over after purchasing the essentials.

Since distances are long they must use fuel to even go to the shopping malls many miles away since the WalMarts and Target have pretty much destroyed the small merchants who used to provide their necessities.

So the price of gas and diesel play a very large part in their cost of living. It most definitely is beginning to impact even me. I now must plan each long trip in order to justify it. My gas tank never seems to get above 1/4 full. I ride my motorcycle as often as I can, even in chilly weather.

Most drive junker vehicles that don't get good mileage.

When rising the price is advocated  I don't think that many understand life out here in the rural areas. They want to hit the yuppies and boomers in their pocketbooks.

I only know of a few 'retirees' around here. Those who have worked all their lives here must continue to do so til 65 or else fake a situation in order to gain social security disability. Even then they mostly continue to work in some capacity.

Around here being a school teacher means one is  affluent.
Maybe make $24,000 starting. A very nice salary. And in many cases all farmers wifes usually work as well. In some cases it is not a choice.

In many cases they have to drive 38 miles one way to the nearest medium sized city in order to find gainful employment. Ramping up the price of fuel just means they have less and less to live on.

I would love to discuss this issue with you but I do not have facts and figures, nor charts at my fingertips.

We don't need any of that stuff. My dad's a mechanic, my mom's a secretary, and I grew up on a farm in a very poor area of Oklahoma. I think we can speak the same language.

I just want to see if we can agree on a few basic premises.

1.    Peak Oil is coming, and when it arrives it will have a devastating impact on those who can least afford gasoline.
2.    Raising the price of gasoline would help stretch our oil supplies, and allow us more time to come up with some solutions consisting of biofuels, conservation, etc.
3.    A gas tax can be offset with tax credits so that lower-income workers aren't affected.

My point is that if we don't act now, Peak Oil will have no mercy on those people you are most concerned about. We could potentially enact policies right now that would help ease into the transition.

If you disagree, what do you think will happen to those people who drive 38 miles to work once Peak Oil hits and gasoline prices skyrocket?

Robert,

I have thought a long time about a response. I tried several approaches and none seemed to be right. So here is my take on the situation you describe and your veiwpoint on increasing the price of fuel to reduce its usage or make society seek alternatives.

  1. Why must the working class of this country be the first into the fire? Why does it always seem to go this way?

  2. We do not practice 'conspicious consumption' here. There are no Starbucks, no strip malls nor malls of any kind in my hometown. We once had 4 gas stations, but now just two and only one grocery store yet we are the country seat.

  3. Very few drive those SUVs so prevalent in the burbs. Most drive pickup trucks. Mine in 19 yrs old and rusted out. Some farmers drive new ones with 4 wheeldrive since they have to go to muddy fields and carry real cargo, not just boom boxes!

  4. 38 miles to real medical care beyond the one Dr. here who didn't flee and still takes Medicare yet he can only do so much.

We all don't live in the town. I drive 6 miles to it. Many longer. We usually eat out of convience stores since their are few restaurants. Oddly enough the food is far better than the McDonalds filth. You can also pickup your cologne at the gas station. Yeah we live REAL high on the hog.

Consider this. Most city folk, burbfolk work on paper. They shuffle stuff. Stuff that resembles paper that transfers material. What do we do? We actually take that STUFF out of the ground. We deal in REAL products. All the rest is just barter up and barter down with chits , so to speak.

Without taking stuff out of the ground, there would be no jobs for the others. Oil is the same then as crops in that regard.

What you want is a soft landing perhaps brought about by gradually weaning us off oil products by pricing it very high and hoping that it will work.

I believe we will have a hard landing and then the ones to suffer most will be the city/burb folk and not the country folk, since we have the land and the foodstuffs and the water, and wood for heating and cooking.

Thats one big reason I still live in the country. The work is hard, the pay is bad BUT I have a better chance of surviving. With your scenario , its just slow death to us but not to the rest. I prefer it the other way around.

Let me add. Farmers do not farm for altrustic purposes. They do it for a livelhood. Everyone else gets to eat Corn Flakes at ridiculous price yet the farmer probably gets few pennies from each box , if that. Where is the justice here? It doesn't exist. The middle men(chit passers) get all the profit.

I dont' think my arguements will stand up to very much hard debate but thats the way I see it. Thats my story and I am sticking to it.

Cut our throats and you can kiss your Corn Flakes goodbye.

Does this make sense?

You should look at Prof. Domhoff's sites "Wealth, Income, and Power" and "Power in America."
With your scenario , its just slow death to us but not to the rest.

That's the whole point of the tax credits, though. We price gasoline higher, but we give you back tax credits. The net would be that you aren't hurt, with the upside that you can come out better off if you can make do with less fuel than you currently use.

I don't see a hard landing, I see a series of spiking prices. I see this past year as a preview of things to come. Prices will spike again and again, and it will be the people you describe who will be crushed. That's the was I see it, which is why I think we need a gas tax with offsetting tax credits.

That's the was I see it, which is why I think we need a gas tax with offsetting tax credits.

I think this should be your next thing(when you are not working on ethanol). I know that there are many here who support this. There was some discussion of this here for a while in the spring. Jerome a Paris was also pushing it. However the idea never seems to get any momentum.

I believe the Republican candidate for governor in Massachusetts actually has eliminating the gas tax on her agenda. When are you going to run for office?

Mhhhhh...tax credits then.

How given? At the pump or on a 1040(tax form)?  It might be that it would be hard to delineate those who do or do not qualify and I expect cronyism and other nefarious methods to possibly blow it all to hell. Think prohibition.

Yet it might be the best solution so based on how it would be applied I would support it.

airdale-- He turned and looked me in the eye and said "Son I only believe in two things, fighting chickens and white liquor" turned again and walked away. I knew this was someone I could respect but would he when the need arose place his mouth up againt that chicken's venthole and blow new life into his fighting cock? Or would he puts it's head in his mouth to suck out that stuck blood clot? I knew he wouldn't and that just made me respect the man more 'cause I knew I would do neither of the above ...So I left the pit and started my long night's trudge towards Bell mountain and home...back down that holler on the other side to the clear branch we all called Ottery Creek,near the now lost town of Edgehill,  and my old highschool girlfriend who once waited with a pot of cold white beans,vienna sausage, hard crackers and a can of warm 3.2 beer. She was dead now and buried ignomously by her husband , had committed suicide due to unrequited love...my fault for sure for I should have 'forced' her since thats what she wanted and gave me many chances to do so(catholic girls are like that) ...but....so she's really not there now, just the ghost that haunts me still and that quiet campspot where the hoot owl's constant gabblings can easily drive one mad of a night.
As I reached the peak of Bell I saw the full moon rising , the same that would light my path next night to the regularily 'called' meeting of the Lodge, whereby with secret signs and points the tiler would admit us to our appointed chairs and looking well to the East we would once more take up our long efforts to discuss survival, survival of the last remaining humans in this area of shutins in the ancient Ozark hills.

Forgive me,,I couldn't resist.

Airdale: Half the country votes Republican and you are wondering why the workers get screwed? Actually, more than half of the rural voters choose Repub candidates.Don't worry-the benefits of the upper-end tax cuts will eventually trickle down to you.  
I think to get America to change its tune on energy use and global warming, you will have to appeal to the American sense of moral superiority, of being the 'City on the Hill' not to guilt.

As Warren Buffet told George Bush about US aid on AIDS in Africa 'appeal to Americans' sense of greatness, not their sense of shame'.

This part of the American psyche winds up cynical and world weary Europeans immensely.  It contributes to them not understanding how Americans work.  America was founded, in part, by religious refugees who sought to create 'The City on the Hill'.

The task in the years ahead is for us to appeal to this American sense of greatness, of the Messianic, to save the world in both our interests.  Speaking from a European position, since we start, often, by being condescending, we are absolutely in the wrong place to ask Americans to wake up and smell the roses on Global Warming, and maybe Peak Oil (more of a believer, personally, in the former than the latter).

It will hit those who can barely afford gasoline the hardest.
That's been the argument against taxing fuel to promote economy since the 1970's.  It was the reason for a CAFE-only approach, which put "the burden" on new-car buyers... and the cheaper driving enabled leapfrog development and other troubles.

It's time to bite the bullet.  The crude-oil tax will at least have the property of marginally reducing global oil production and increasing world prices (and incentive to conserve the world 'round) while benefitting the state of California.  The reduced employment in the oil industry will hurt the state, but nothing's perfect.

RR, thanks for this. My personal complaint about the oil companies is that they are purveyors of global warming.

I would be a lot happier if they were migrating wholesale into renewables (eg getting out of oil at a rate of 10%/year for 10 years) while at the same time buying carbon credits on the open market (ECX etc) for the CO2 released in both the production of their products and the combustion of their products.

My personal complaint about the oil companies is that they are purveyors of global warming.

It is true that some major oil companies have vigorously denied global warming. I see this as a big problem. But realize that the purveyors have a very willing accomplice in the public, which demands cheap gas. If the oil companies decided to stop purveying global warming, where would we be? We certainly have to take steps to combat global warming, but the oil companies can't do it by themselves.

I would be a lot happier if they were migrating wholesale into renewables (eg getting out of oil at a rate of 10%/year for 10 years)...

Imagine for a moment that you could get all oil companies on board with this goal. Do you know what would happen? As they migrated to renewables, costs would go up. The public would scream, and say that oil companies are deliberately conspiring to drive prices up. The politicians would accuse oil companies of withholding products. Meanwhile, overseas refiners would start shipping finished gasoline to our shores and put the oil companies, with their good intentions, right out of business.

Re: We certainly have to take steps to combat global warming, but the oil companies can't do it by themselves

No, they can't do it by themselves but they might give it the old college try as opposed to ExxonMobil funding nonsense skepticism that in the past has confused the media and public alike. The rest of them (other than XOM) are only marginally better. Lip service. Sometimes the IOCs talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk, do they?

Don't go overboard, Robert.

Sometimes the IOCs talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk, do they?

First of all, I have already said that I disagree with any global warming denials. But, let's say we get them to stop denying that fossil fuel consumption is causing global warming. What then?

If you are the CEO of XOM, what is your plan to reduce global warming? That's my point. There isn't a whole lot you can do unilaterally. An oil CEO can't reduce consumption, unless they just start making less product. That would drive prices sky high, and the legislation would call for an inquisition. So, what do you do?

Re: So, what do you do? [as the CEO of XOM]

The IOC's have a "narrow" agenda. Produce oil & gas and make money for their stockholders. XOM has considered denying global warming as part of their agenda (although I don't know about Tillerson) because -- why? -- to push product? Like you've got to push oil on the market because otherwise nobody would buy it? What the hell!

Re: An oil CEO can't reduce consumption, unless they just start making less product

Robert, that's a straw man and you must surely know it. The IOCs run full-page advertisements in the NY Times, and elsewhere, all the time telling us they are solving all our problems. They are not. Why don't they spend more money on alternative energy? Because they are not in the business? Not good enough. Why don't they spend their considerable public relations budgets telling the public that they are concerned about global warming and actually try -- since they are energy companies -- to do something about it?

Jesus wept.

Robert, that's a straw man and you must surely know it.

A straw man means that I have misrepresented my opponent's position in order to attack it. I haven't done anything like that. I am asking for suggestions on how exactly an oil CEO addresses global warming.

Oil companies are spending quite a bit on alternative energy. Most companies have biofuels efforts. It will never be enough, because there just isn't an alternative that can replace oil. So, again, what would you do? You are CEO of XOM. You have acknowledged global warming. What are you going to do to mitigate the problem? You seem to admit above that acknowledging global warming won't stem demand. So, what next?

That brings up an interesting idea for a post. I would like to see more brainstorming/troubleshooting posts here. So, maybe for a future essay, everyone gets to be CEO of a Big Oil company. How do you run it differently than it is currently being run.

Re: An oil CEO can't reduce consumption, unless they just start making less product

That is a straw man, saying that the only alternative an oil CEO has is to make less product to reduce consumption. That then, would be my position as your "opponent" in this little argument -- that the IOCs must start making less product. Is this not clear to you? How can I make this more clear to you? In fact, the IOCs with their huge profits have many other alternatives beyond the fairly small efforts they have made up to now investing in alternative energy sources.

As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, you may be onto something there. Let's force people to consume less. That's my argument in Extreme Production Measures as it has evolved in my thinking. Countries should flatten out their production & imports and start taking mitigation steps towards a different future. Hirsch report, right? I have suggested that specifically for Brazil and Kuwait in World Energy Monthly Review (August 2006). The argument certainly applies to the United States since we consume 25% of the fossil fuels produced globally each and every day.

Every day. And about we are responsible for about the same percentage of global CO2 emissions. Or, as David Byrne once said, This ain't no disco, this ain't no party, this ain't no fooling around.

That's it, final word. Have a good one.

How can I make this more clear to you?

By actually suggesting a step that a CEO could take to reduce consumption. Flatten out production? Is that your answer? That would involve making less product, Dave. Not over the long haul, but over the short-term it will mean less product, and potentially product shortages (unless your competitors have the capacity to step into the gap).

So, again I ask you for a solution to the problem. You are an oil CEO. You wish to force people to consume less. You suggest that my "make less product" suggestion is a straw man, and then you offer a suggestion that would involve us making less product.

Is that it? Any other suggestions? If you think about it, you see that it isn't as easy as it might look.

OK, I lied, not my final word.

Now, Robert, you're way off-base here and I'm not sure what to say to you. You work for an oil company and I believe that has colored your thinking.

Your position boils down to "the oil CEO" is helpless. This position insults every single person on the Planet Earth working to fight climate change. I am relatively helpless, doing this journalism, walking to the store, riding my bike. I don't have the CEO's money, influence and prestige.

The oil companies, as important institutions in this society, could be leading the way in fighting climate change by

  1. Investing heavily in so-called renewables. These are growth industries, there's no conflict.
  2. Investing heavily in technologies that enable energy efficiency at all levels.
  3. Lobbying for subsidies for #1 and #2 above, the kind of subsidies they themselves have long enjoyed, so that sufficient quantities of oil & gas will be available to us as we make the transition-- oil & gas that I am grateful they provide.
  4. Leading the public campaign to fight climate change.
  5. Investing heavily in Carbon Capture & Storage (CCS) or in other methods or reducing CO2 emission in their own production processes.
And, I could go on and on. Now, I'm not bothered that you don't seem to have read much of what I've said to you because there seems to be a "blind spot" operating here. Hey, we've all got them. But what I will not abide, from you or anyone else, is a lame defense of the IOCs with respect to their past and current policies regarding climate change.

The deeper reason, of course, is that corporations, whether they are WalMart or Beyond Petroleum, lack any sense of social responsibility. Now, I know that this is hard for someone who works for a large corporation to admit. It's a very hard truth to swallow, especially when you are a hardworking, proud family man earning a paycheck.

Powerdown. It's not a joke.

Really, Robert, best to you --

Dave

Your position boils down to "the oil CEO" is helpless.

No, Dave, it is you who is off base. You aren't really even listening to what I am saying. You are just telling me what you want me to hear. You need to go back and see what I actually wrote, and what you are addressing.

I told you that oil companies couldn't do it by themselves. I told you that the CEO couldn't reduce consumption unilaterally, unless he simply decided to produce less product. You disputed this, so I asked what you would do as CEO. You have had difficulty giving me a straight answer, but essentially said you would produce less product. Finally, in this latest response you suggest a number of solutions, most of which the CEO could not do unilaterally. You confirm my comment that started this exchange, which was "We certainly have to take steps to combat global warming, but the oil companies can't do it by themselves". So, we've come full circle. You agree that the oil companies can't do it by themselves.

Your first suggestion is a good one, but most oil companies are investing in biofuels (as I already pointed out). But they don't see as much opportunity there for a long time. So, you, as CEO, are going to open yourself up to serious criticism from your shareholders by investing too heavily into a business model that may never be economic without subsidies. Look at the criticism BP is now taking over their recent snafus. People are criticizing their fascination with alternative energy, and suggesting this is why they neglected their pipelines (not that I believe that story). Oil companies certainly invest money into efficiency. Energy efficiency is very important, and gets a lot of capital expenditures.

But what I will not abide, from you or anyone else, is a lame defense of the IOCs with respect to their past and current policies regarding climate change.

Likewise, I won't abide someone seriously misreading my position, and then criticizing a misrepresentation. Reread what was said. You are way off the mark. I have not defended policies regarding climate change. You insinuation that I have is troubling.

The deeper reason, of course, is that corporations, whether they are WalMart or Beyond Petroleum, lack any sense of social responsibility.

Ludicrous. Corporations are composed of people who have social responsibility. They are owned by shareholders who have social responsibility. That doesn't mean they can't be wrong. But to suggest that there is no sense of social responsibility is just absolutely ridiculous. My company is a big sponsor for United Way and Habitat for Humanity. They are giving me the day off on Thursday to go help build a house. How is this possible, given that they lack social responsibility?

Robert,

You wrote, "Ludicrous. Corporations are composed of people who have social responsibility."

The people may have notions of responsiblity but the duty of the officers is to do what is in the best interest of the corporation. In most cases, as in 99.9%, this means make more money. What Joe in accounting thinks is irrelevant. What the officers think personally is irrelevant too. Try to do something socially responsbile but that is not in the interest of the corporation and you could be facing civil and possibly criminal actions.

Now sometimes doing the responsbile thing will make more money. But if that was the rule instead of the exception, we would not be in the global clusterfuck we find ourselves in.

As far as people bashing the oil industry in general, I laugh when people (including people on this board) do it. I mean dude you are typing on a coal powered computer and eventually the computer will find it's way to some third world landfill where it will help to poison an entire village and give several generations of villagers all sorts of cancers. So as Jesus said, "pull the twig oout of your eye or just sh-t the f--k up already." (I'm paraphrasing.)

As far as people bashing the oil industry in general, I laugh when people (including people on this board) do it. I mean dude you are typing on a coal powered computer and eventually the computer will find it's way to some third world landfill where it will help to poison an entire village and give several generations of villagers all sorts of cancers. So as Jesus said, "pull the twig oout of your eye or just sh-t the f--k up already." (I'm paraphrasing.)

I don't disagree with your depiction of what is going to happen to my computer.  But what good options does anyone really have?  It is virtually impossible to escape the "system".  There is no place to go where is doesn't touch you.  Taken to it's logical conclusion, none of us should offer our opinions on anything.

Put it this way: you won't hear me pointing the finger at Big Business of any form until I'm willing to give up the following just to start:

  1. driving
  2. using the air-conditioner
  3. eating beef
  4. all non-necessary electricity including the internet

I've already foregone owning a car but more to save the money than to take the moral high ground. But I have given it up so I guess I could use that to take the high ground and start howling about the evils of GM and Shell.

However, I'm typing on a coal powered computer while listening to the Giants game on a coal powered radio with the AC running and I've got a big fat juicy steak in my mouth. So it would be the height of dumbassedness for me to start railing on the evil of Big Business right at the moment given my personal actions.

Put it this way: you won't hear me pointing the finger at Big Business of any form until I'm willing to give up the following just to start:

You're going to have to add a lot more items to your list before you can criticize Big Business.  You might have to give up eating all together.  All forms of travel except for walking.  You'll have to give up wearing clothes.  The point is, you can't do much of anything in the good ole US of A without using a product or a service provided by a Big Business.  

The problem isn't using products and services from Big Business per se, the problem is you can't opt out of the system.  If entirely opting out is the pre-requisite for criticizing Big Business, this has the practical effect of insulationg Big Business from any criticism, ever.

That's why I said, "just to start"

I'm not sayingn "don't criticize Big Business." I'm saying "criticize Big Busines but get your own actions in line with your rhetoric to a reasonable degree."

Most of the people doing the critizicing haven't even made one significant sacrifice yet to get away from Big Business. Installing energy efficient light bulbs, btw, does not qualify as as significant sacrifice. I call bullshit on people howling who have not at least given up personal use of the car given how damaging it is. Of course somebody will say, "but I can't give up my car because of reason such and such." I say, well you are not willilng to make the sacrifices necessary to bring your actions in line with your rhetoric. Not unlike slaveowners who advocated freedome but refused to give up their slaves.

I'm not saying you should give up your car. I would need one if I had kids myself. But if you're going to howl, lets see the actions like up with the rhetoric.

Hi Alpha,

But if you're going to howl, lets see the actions like up with the rhetoric.

This is ridiculous.  If you want to hold yourself to that standard, that's your business.  But to have actions line up with rhetoric, you'd have to take seriously drastic measures.

Does criticizing the business practices of Verizon and RCN necessitate giving up my phone?

Does criticizing ADM mean I have to stop eating products containing corn and wheat?

Does criticizing capitalism mean I have to move to North Korea?  Ooops, I don't like totalitarian despots either.  Looks like Antarctica is the only place for me.

This kind of test of purity and virtue is impossible for anyone to pass.  In practice, it merely shields the miscreants from criticism.

I never post here, but I have to say this is the only intelligent comment in the entire thread. I'm sorry Robert. You're a slimebag and you're rationalizing. You work for a company set on raping and destroying the environment for personal enrichment and money. All murderers think of themselves as good people. You contribute to the system. You can't rationalize it away by saying "If I didn't do it, someone else would." Face up to it. You're scum because you work for them. I'm scum because I buy their products.

If you don't like people calling everyone in the entire industry evil, then quit. It's simple. Stop making excuses for yourself. Oh, you don't want to starve, do you? Welcome back to reality. Quit or admit that you're scum and accept the criticism. "Here, here" to your wife. She should be embarrassed.

We should all be embarrassed when we climb on an airplane or get into our cars. You are the problem Robert. We are the problem too. All of us. It's only one of degree. Anyone who tries to pretend they aren't responsible is either incredibly stupid or a liar. I'm stealing from my grandchildren to enrich myself. Hopefully, they will forgive me for being so selfish. I don't want to stop.

My advice to you Robert, get off your high horse and apologize to the world because you work for the evil empire.  Agree with them when they call you names. They're right.

Well, that was a very interesting first post...
One of the crowd wrote:

[quote]"I'm sorry Robert. You're a slimebag and you're rationalizing. You work for a company set on raping and destroying the environment. . . ."

and:

2. "You're scum because you work for them."

and:

3. "Quit or admit that you're scum . . ."
[/quote]

Sounds like somebody has some unresolved personal rage issues they need to deal with.

[Opens door to forum a crack, takes a sniff]

:X

[slamming door hits ass]

Giving up beef (for the most part) is not that hard, AMPOD. Or just switch to grass-fed.  That should enable you to rail against the industrial food system...
I do eat grass fed and locally raised.
And here I thought you'd given up air-conditioning...
Ditch the coal fired radio and get a freeplay.  You can do it; quit eating the beef -- that will probably have as great an impact as your non use of the auto.  I don't know your situation, so don't know what you can do about 2.  

Regardless, as you know, the corporate system is set up in such a way as to encourage businesses to act in ways that are socially and environmentally irresponsible. So, yeh, the individual corporation is just playing the game they are permitted to.  But how did we get in this mess in the first place?  Corporate charters have been corrupted over the years by coporations influencing legislatures. Corporations got the Supreme Court to rule that they had the rights of individuals. You know all this, of course.

It is big business that keeps this system in place. So no, I don't think you would be a dumbass for railing against big business. They created this system with the help of a bunch of corrupt cronies in the legislatures and congress. So we should rail against them in the sense that we should be railing against the system they created. To rail at them as individual corporations in pointless since they will simply say they are acting in accordance with the law and their corporate charters. Their hands are tied, they will say.

But who controls all this. It ain't us, sparky.

Robert you wrote:

"But to suggest that there is no sense of social responsibility is just absolutely ridiculous. My company is a big sponsor for United Way and Habitat for Humanity. They are giving me the day off on Thursday to go help build a house. How is this possible, given that they lack social responsibility?"

This is like somebody working at Halliburton in 1997 saying, "I got the day off to build a home for poor people and H-ton paid for it so therefore Halliburton is a socially responsible corporation and Dick Cheney a socially responsible CEO."

This is like somebody working at Halliburton in 1997 saying, "I got the day off to build a home for poor people and H-ton paid for it so therefore Halliburton is a socially responsible corporation and Dick Cheney a socially responsible CEO."

Not really, but it would rebut the statement that they "lack any sense of social responsibility."

Corporations do socially responsible things all the time. There are officers and CEOs who think doing socially responsible things is the correct course of action. I am sure there are others who couldn't care less about anything but making money.

If socially repsonsble actions by corporations were the norm, not the exception, we would not be facing the problems we are currently facing at least not in their

The officers may WANT to do the right thing but they are legally obligated to do what is best for the corporation in much the same way an attorney must do what is in the best for his client not the best interest in of society. That is his legal duty. In both cases if the person wants to put the social good ahead of the corporation or the client, they need to find a different line of work because they are going to be facing civil or criminal penalites for putting the good of society ahead of the corporation/client.

Like I said occasionally what is good for the corporation will coincide with what socially responsible thing is. (Toyota making money from manufacturing fuel efficient cars might be agued to be an example of this)

Robert, I understand your position completely. You keep framing the argument this way:
I told you that the CEO couldn't reduce consumption unilaterally, unless he simply decided to produce less product. You disputed this, so I asked what you would do as CEO. You have had difficulty giving me a straight answer...
I did give you a straight answer (#1 through #5 in a previous post) and you ignored it. Other people below have made other suggestions. The "narrow" focus of these corporations (producing oil & gas, giving returns to stockholders) is the real problem. Corporations should be part of the social commonweal but they are not. Historically, they were. I am arguing from outside a system that needs reform. You are arguing from inside a system that will never reform itself. I am not Vinod Khosla.

Oil companies can't reduce consumption. I agree. But that's a bogus argument. You keep trying to force me to argue with that position. I won't.

I am trying to be nice here. Don't give me some nonsense argument and then turn around and then tell me that you find it troubling that I won't respond to it. It's an old rhetorical trick, as old as the Greeks or older and they taught it in my freshman year at the University of Chicago.

take care,

Dave, with all due respect, you are completely out of line. If you don't want to take my word for it, I will share with you an e-mail I received from another TOD personnel (I won't reveal the identity). I think you should take a deep breath, review this conversation, and realize that you misread and overreacted. I will recap, and you can check for accuracy.

1.    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#16

I acknowledged that some oil companies have been guilty of denying global warming, and said I think this is a big problem. I acknowledged that steps must be taken to combat global warming, but that oil companies can't do it by themselves. The reason they can't do it by themselves is because the public demands their cheap fix of gasoline.

2.    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#42

You told me not to go overboard. You said they "talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk, do they?"

3.    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#44

Once again, I acknowledged that global warming denials are wrong, but it seems that you are not hearing this. We appear to both agree that if they stop denying global warming, that is not going to do much to mitigate global warming. So, I ask what you would do differently as CEO. I point out that there is not much they can do unilaterally unless they just make less product. However, that strategy would bring down consumer complaints of withholding product. My point, again, is that it is difficult for them to do it by themselves, reinforcing my initial point.

4.    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#46

You respond by suggesting that this is a straw man. You dodged my question on what you would do differently, and just ranted about them denying global warming.

5.    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#48

I repeat my question: What would you do differently?

6.    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#50

Amazingly, you answer my question with "let's force people to consume less", and suggest that we "flatten out production". You have answered the question with "make less product", which is exactly what you criticized me for. You called this a straw man, and yet this is how you answered my question of what you would do differently.

7.    http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#52

I point out that you have merely repeated my initial answer that you criticized, so I asked for something else since you were earlier critical of this answer.

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/9/9/114422/3219#57

At this point, you go into a tizzy and make a number of unwarranted comments:

"Robert, you're way off-base here

you don't seem to have read much of what I've said to you because there seems to be a "blind spot" operating here

You work for an oil company and I believe that has colored your thinking.

what I will not abide, from you or anyone else, is a lame defense of the IOCs with respect to their past and current policies regarding climate change"

You finally answer my question with several steps, after I had asked it multiple times. The thing is, oil companies are already engaged in the first 2 solutions, and most of them support my initial comment that they can't do it by themselves. You seem to have forgotten what this argument is about. Furthermore, it was only after much prodding that you answered the question, and I certainly did not ignore it. I responded to it. So, your claim:

I did give you a straight answer (#1 through #5 in a previous post) and you ignored it.

Is disingenuous at best. I don't know what the problem is Dave. You are arguing against a position I haven't taken, and rebutting arguments I never made. You are making gratuitous ad homs that are not warranted.

I will send you an e-mail now that shows I am not the only person who saw it this way.

Well, I'd be happy if they would just stop funding the "science" that poisons the subject of GW.  I don't really expect an IOC to do anything but produce oil, but it annoys me when they lie to me, for some reason.
Pretty much all of your proposed actions would drive down the stock price far enough to make the company easy prey for a takeover.  The buyer would throw out the management and going back to doing things the profitable way.

This is why it's so important to change government policy (especially taxes).  The corporation is created by the law and subject to the whims of the law; if the law says "Thou shalt make the best return for thy shareholders, and report each quarter, or thou shalt be trampled by a horde of Gucci-shod attorneys", that's what the corp has to do.

The solution is to make the right thing also the most profitable thing; the rest follows inevitably.

This is why it's so important to change government policy (especially taxes).

That is exactly the point I have been trying to make. It is very easy to say that the CEO should do this or that, but in reality they would have a tough time implementing the changes people think they should implement. The solution is to make everyone implement the same policies.

The solution is to make everyone implement the same policies.

Like, it is not so much to powerdown but to have OTHERS to powerdown too?
I AGREE, but how?

Agreed!!!!
"Pretty much all of your proposed actions would drive down the stock price far enough to make the company easy prey for a takeover.  The buyer would throw out the management and going back to doing things the profitable way."

Exactly. This is a better way of saying what I was trying to say: even if the officer/CEO wants to do the socially right thing he can't because of this. And if he goes with his conscious he could be facing lots of lawsuits for not maximizing the company's share value.

Man, I would like to see that movie, the one with the Gucci shod attorneys.  The fact that there are some good people in the  corporations, of course, irrelevant and about as relevant as the fact there are good people in our current government.

The people don't even begin to have a clue as to what is wrong with this picture. Corporations run our universe with the legislatures as its pawns. And why not? We let them.

Actually, it would be better to start with your previous challenge, what could an oil CEO do to mitigate climate change.  That door is wide open.  Actually, I'll keep my list to things that wouldn't necessarily reduce consumption of the company's products.  Exxon seems to be the biggest problem, since BP and Shell at least are doing some of these:

  1. Pay for physical mitigation measures, or relocation assistance, for island nations.
  2. Pay for sincere climate research.
  3. Pay for research into sequestration.
  4. Pay for actual sequestration.
  5. Pay for research and actual products to reduce other industries' emissions (for example, pay for "clean coal" research and plants)
  6. Pay for research into alternatives (biobutanol, cellulosic ethanol).
  7. Invest in production of alternatives.
  8. Pay for marketing that encourages people to reduce GHG emissions.

Most of these would probably reduce profits, however, which may or may not be in shareholders best interest.  Some of them, like 3, 5, 6, and 7 may well end up making money, possibly a great deal of money.

Ken

Most of these would probably reduce profits...

Therein lies the problem. You may want to do all of these things, but in reality you can't. You will be voted out by the shareholders. The only way to really get some of these things done is through legislation. That way, everyone has to do it, so some companies are not at a competitive disadvantage. Of course the consumers are going to pay more, and may want to vote out the legislators who passed the legislation.

Of course I feel the need to point out that this doesn't amount to a defense of the climate change policies of the IOCs, as someone here has suggested. When I ask "what would you do?", I mean that literally. I want people to think through suggestions, and then the implications. Then, it may become a bit more clear as to why some of these suggestions can't be practically implemented, and why we find ourselves where we are.

My bottom line point, missed by some, is this: We won't reduce GHGs without significantly reducing consumption. An oil CEO has a limited amount of power to reduce consumption. I have personally heard my CEO publicly and in private call for conversation. But really, how much can he do to reduce the average person's fuel usage?  

My bottom line point, missed by some, is this: We won't reduce GHGs without significantly reducing consumption. An oil CEO has a limited amount of power to reduce consumption. I have personally heard my CEO publicly and in private call for conversation. But really, how much can he do to reduce the average person's fuel usage?

I see your point, Robert, but it only goes so far.  You make it sound like the CEO's have little to no influence on society at large, and here I disagree.

While admitting that CEO's are not almighty, they have a lot more power to influence society than the average bear.  First off, they get instant credibility when they talk about energy issues because that is their industry, their specialty.  Multiply that by the number of people they can reach with their message, due to the fact that the media will cover their statements and report on it, and by the influence their money, via political contributions, can buy in state and federal government.

The CEO's may not have direct control on the decisions individuals make, but their indirect influence is considerable.  People don't make decisions in a vacuum.  Maybe Tillerson can't make me cancel my road trip next week, but he can start a national dialogue that changes my awareness of these issues, and ultimately leads to my purchase of a Prius, or moving closer to where I work.

Do you know that these steps, if taken, would not make a difference in oil consumption?  I don't know the answer to this question, but it strikes me as realistic that this kind of behavior could lead to a reduction in oil consumption nationwide.

Therein lies the problem. You may want to do all of these things, but in reality you can't. You will be voted out by the shareholders

Assuming you agree with my points above, that CEO's can influence oil consumption, that still leaves us with the problem that they have a powerful incentive to refrain from these activities since they will reduce profits.

I agree.  But this sounds like an excellent basis for criticizing the IOC's, as institutions.  They are pursuing their own narrow interests at the expense of social welfare.  And with a critically important commodity, a commodity that is required to heat our homes and grow the food we eat.  Some criticism of the oil companies might be in order after all.

Maybe Tillerson can't make me cancel my road trip next week, but he can start a national dialogue that changes my awareness of these issues, and ultimately leads to my purchase of a Prius, or moving closer to where I work.

I think most people hate what Tillerson stands for so much that they wouldn't listen to much of what he says. But, wasn't it Tillerson who recently got into a spat with an auto executive after he called for the auto industry to get with the program and increase fuel efficiency in their autos? If it wasn't Tillerson, it as one of the major oil CEOs. The auto executive blasted back, complaining about oil company price gouging. Does anyone remember that? I looked for a link, but couldn't find it.

Some criticism of the oil companies might be in order after all.

I never said that some criticism was not in order. I take exception to blanket criticism; especially the charges of ripping people off. I think XOM, for instance, deserves loads of criticism over the Exxon Valdez. I think they deserve criticism over years of denying global warming. I think BP deserves criticism over the pipeline maintenance.

The only way to really get some of these things done is through legislation.

Legislation???
Extending the empires' jurisdiction all over the world?
You must be missing something, don't you?

That way, everyone has to do it, so some companies are not at a competitive disadvantage.

Missing something, indeed...

I think you guys are seeing this a little too much as an "all or nothing" situation.  What about Costco?  They compete directly with Walmart, but they pay their employees well,have real benefits, give them holidays off (ever tried shopping at Costco on Labor Day?) and have lower profit margins as a result.  Wall Street doesn't much like it, but their progressiveness hasn't led to shareholder lawsuits.  
May I respectfully suggest that you point your CEO to my "!0% reduction in US Oil Use" paper.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2006-05a.htm

Bill Gates has bought a major share on Canadian National RR, so there may be some investment opportunities.

From a PR POV, having Conoco-Phillips running electric wires (partially supplied by wind power) accross some section of America would be a powerful, and positive image IMHO.  C-P could say they are in it to make money (quite believable) BUT it also helps America and energy independence.

Robert

Corporations are, by charter, required to maximize profit for their shareholders.  Cutting back on product strikes me as a rediculous policy and would probably require all manner of legal problems for corporate management. I expect oil companies to do what they were formed to do; find, drill, process, and sell oil.

However, there is one thing off the top that they could do which might be helpful. They could start by admitting the reality of peak oil (Chevron has, in essence, done this).

It follows that oil companies should support policies that support the conservation of oil, including those technologies which help in that conservation. But then, we are back to square one. As you point out, this is tantamount to supporting the production of less product.  

My question is, if oil companies joined the conservation movement, would this be an irresponsible from a fiduciary standpoint?  

This might be an interesting thread and maybe not as simple as it seems at first blush. While it might seem paradoxical for oil companies to support conservation, is that anymore paradoxical than having fishing companies support fish conservation?  While oil companies might conceivably sacrifice short term profits by becoming conservationists, this might in fact be in the long term interests of the corporation just as Kuwait may end up conserving in the long term interests of their country.  

Further, is it inherently absurd to ask that oil companies support gas taxes?  While this would tend to reduce consumption of their product, it might permit them to spread their profits and viability over a longer term.  Further, perhaps we should be talking about bringing something like the Texas Railroad Commission to enforce quotas company by company so that each company would have to share in slowing down depletion.

BP has been caught doing a lot of bad things in recent years. However, here is a case where the CEO can have a positive impact. They were one of the first oil companies to withdraw from the campaign to deny global warming.  They have encouraged people to look at their carbon footprint. They haved recognized that we have to start producing and/or sequestering carbon. Maybe it's all a PR campaign, but they have shown that oil companies can start providing information for the public good rather than assuming that all conservation is bad for the bottom line.

I am sure the knee jerkers go both ways when it comes to Prop 87.  While there are very good reasons to be skeptical about 87, there are also good reasons to be skeptical about those who are against it. The people in the valley don't want higher gas and diesel prices; the corporations don't want anything that will cut into their profits.  As usual, we all don't seem to live on the same planet.

Eventually, when the cheap energy runs out, those farmers in the valley will feel like they are back from whence the came -- the dustbowl of Oklahoma.

I'm skipping  around here, but what we need to think about is restructuring corporate charters, by law, in such a way, as to encourage corporate behavior that operates in the long term public and planetary interest.  Being a good corporate citizen needs to go beyond short term profit maximization. We also need to overturn the legal principle that it has the rights of an individual. It is not an individual; it is a machine that overruns the rights of the individual, including those who work for it.  One of the primary purposes of the corporation is to avoid personal responsibility.  
 

The most effective thing an oil-company CEO could do is to raise the price of oil products so people consume less.

This is the precise thing people are complaining about.

HI Robert,

What, as the CEO of an oil company, could the CEO do to combat looming problems like peak oil and global warming?

I'll take a gander:

1)As energy leaders, take responsibility to fess up to the problems of global warming and peak oil and gas.  They should be warning the world about the upcoming problems, not downplaying them, since they are in an especially good position, and have exactly the right information, to do so.

  1. Demand government intervention.  If alternative energy sources can't compete with fossil fuels, then demand that they be taxed or regulation applied until the alternatives can compete with oil and gas.

  2. Lead through example.  Institute, to the extent possible, reforms at the company (for example, ban SUV's as company cars, insist on hybrids).  The CEO's could do even more, by installing solar systems on their houses and so forth.

  3. Happily boast about your ability to provide the fossil fuel energy required to transition from the current regime to a more sustainable future.

I realize that some or all of these things are counterproductive to the goal of making money and maximizing shareholder value, which means they are very unlikely to happen.

But that is the fundamental problem, isn't it?  The good of the company is at odds with the good of society (the exact opposite of what is supposed to be the case according to market economic fundamentalists).

BTW, in this kind of a situation, it makes perfect sense to criticize the institution (companies which extract and sell off non-renewable natural resources for profit).  The institution is the problem, because the incentives acting on agents of the institution promote socially destructive behavior.

Likewise for a tobacco company, a trash incinerator, you name it. Seems to me the problem is not with the company but with the system or the corporate form itself. A good, well-functioning market is possible, but that takes a lot of government supplied structure. Corporations as currently structured have been the single biggest force to undermine that.

States do (usually) still have the authority to revoke the charters of corporations not operating in the public interest. But no liberal or conservative will do that, because over the past generation or so both parties have become de facto neoliberals - supporters of "free market" corporate kleptocracy. They can't imagine busting up a big corporation. There is no longer a stick, merely more and more taxpayer subsidized carrots.

Growth and profit in the corpo mindset logically leads to unrestricted warfare on human beings by the global corpos. Nothing personal, it's just business. Everything that fails to maximize profit is fair game: if people are hungry, raise the price of food because they will be willing to pay more - and even if not everyone can pay, profits will still increase as long as the few can pay more. Nothing personal, just business. Unrestricted warfare. Good people creating bad results. Such a system makes all of us into little Eichmanns. To step out of that system requires superhuman strength.

Catherine Fitts writes about the Tapeworm Economy. Wendell Berry writes about the Whole Horse and Compromise Hell!. The economic engine that we have created is killing us. We created it; we can recreate it differently. Theoretically of course; anyone really trying would be a terrorist.

cfm in Gray, ME

You might also be interested in reading "Model Legal Brief to Eliminate Corporate Rights" and "THE IMPACT OF CORPORATIONS ON THE COMMONS"

You may also find other interesting articles here

There is one important thing a certain oil company could do that would help Green House warming and peak oil a lot. That is to ease off on their legal action against companies trying to use large format NiMH batteries to make electric cars and PHEVs. Chevron is clearly not helping anyone with their suppression of this technology although of course they have the legal right since they own the patent. I find it hard to have any sympathy for this kind of behavior in fact it is clearly a case of greed at the planet's expense. See here.
Robert:

XOM spends a lot of money on lobbying, and on political candidates (starting with one George W Bush) who specifically oppose doing anything about global warming/ disbelieve in its existence.

Don't look to the oil industry for solutions for these problems.

Throughout history, when an industry was dying, it was new entrants and new innovators that created the next solution, not the existing competitors.  No railroads started successful airlines.  No phone companies created internet companies.  No horse and buggy manufacturer is now a leading car brand (Toyota made electric looms and sewing machines!).

No minicomputer company embraced microcomputers.  IBM created the PC, but are almost the exception that proves the rule in that (they created a separate division that did not source any of the key hardware or software from inside IBM-- hence, Microsoft).

See Clayton Christensen 'The Innovator's Dilemma' for why this is so.

Why don't they spend their considerable public relations budgets telling the public that they are concerned about global warming and actually try -- since they are energy companies -- to do something about it?

Because they are not really energy companies. They are oil companies. They know some incredible stuff like 4D seismic and robotic drilling in record depths of water but it's all to do with oil. How much of Beyond Petroleum BP is renewable energy? Is it even 1%? I think the psychology involved here is huge - the leopard will not easily change its spots.

The way US capitalism has developed they make as much money as they think they can get away with for the CEO and the other executives and the stockholders are lucky to get a few crumbs.
If you are the CEO of XOM, what is your plan to reduce global warming?

Easy:

  1. make a website like this:  http://www.willyoujoinus.com/

  2. sign on to this:

http://www.logicalscience.com/consensus/consensus.htm

3) ask the government to fund Richard Smalley's apollo energy program.

End of story.

Some oil companies, or at least some of their executives, have admitted global warming is a problem.

Shell and BP in particular.  Both are major producers of gas, and of solar cells.  They both pulled out of the lobby group trying to kill Kyoto, on the grounds that 'there may be a problem'.

Exxon Mobil continues to the be 'there is no Peak Oil, there is no Global Warming' candidate.  Witness the latest YouTube clip making fun of Al Gore (and funded by an energy lobby group, disguised as a bunch of 20-something slacker dudes) and the adds 'CO2, we call it life'.

You can't shoot oil companies for looking after their shareholders, and their senior executives, first and foremost.  

Action on global warming will have to come from people, and from governments-- companies will only respond to pressure from their customers and the political and legal system.  Otherwise no company is going to reduce its competitive position by embracing something that its competitors are not, and thus increasing its cost base/ lowering profits.

I'm for prop 87 and I'm against it. When we have a situation of fixed or declining supply in the face of increasing demand, supply price increases won't cause supply to ever balance with demand (actually, economic implosion would eventually cause demand to balance with supply).

Therefore, a tax on supply prices would be good if it was applied to mitigate balance. But using the supply tax on a pollyanna program of biofuels won't alter the fundamental structure of demand. If the prop 87 taxes were used directly for rail transit, I'd vote for it.

California's climate and abundant irrigation infrastructure makes it ideal for growing high-value crops such as almonds, broccoli, strawberries, etc. I simply can't imagine people tearing down their walnut orchards to replace them with subsidized feed corn for around $3.75 a bushel!
 

OK, I admit it, I have no idea what a, "meme" is.  

Sorry, I know that was off topic.  It's just that, it's been eating away at me.

Rap lyric from 2014:

"Even though oil may peakin', I got gas in my car to get me through the weekend."  

may be peakin'
I have no idea what a, "meme" is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term "meme" (IPA: [miːm], not "mem"), coined in 1976 by Richard Dawkins, refers to a unit of cultural information that can be transmitted from one mind to another. Dawkins said, Examples of memes are tunes, catch-phrases, clothes fashions, ways of making pots or of building arches. A meme propagates itself as a unit of cultural evolution analogous in many ways to the gene (the unit of genetic information). Often memes propagate as more-or-less integrated cooperative sets or groups, referred to as memeplexes or meme-complexes.

The idea of memes has proved a successful meme in its own right, achieving a degree of penetration into popular culture rare for a scientific theory.

Some proponents of memes suggest that memes evolve via natural selection -- in a way very similar to Charles Darwin's ideas concerning biological evolution -- on the premise that variation, mutation, competition, and "inheritance" influence their replicative success. For example, while one idea may become extinct, other ideas will survive, spread and mutate -- for better or for worse -- through modification.

Some meme-theorists contend that memes most beneficial to their hosts will not necessarily survive; rather, those memes which replicate the most effectively spread best; which allows for the possibility that successful memes might prove detrimental to their hosts

The other problem I have is with the claim that Prop 87 is "guaranteed" to raise gas prices for Californians. The issue is not will-it/won't-it raise prices; the issue is how much will it raise prices? If it's a tiny amount like less than a penny a gallon, then for all intents and purposes it effectively doesn't raise prices. I notice that Robert does not give us a quantitative estimate of this.

The link he quotes, California Politics Today, is not very persuasive on this issue because first, only one of them give a quantitative value, and that's "a penny or two" per gallon, and second, they are all either big-business interests or paid consultants for the No on 87 campaign! Agreement among such experts is hardly meaningful.

It seems to me that oil companies set their prices on the basis of many factors. They may well choose to raise prices in a much larger area than the California region in order to compensate for this new tax, especially since they can get in trouble if they are caught raising prices just in California. All they really care about is getting the income, and if it comes from Texans and for that matter Sri Lankans rather than just Californians, that's fine. So it may be that the whole world will pay a tenth of a cent more per gallon or something, and this will fund Khosla's new four billion dollar ethanol plant.

All we really know is that oil companies will be cautious about making Californians specifically take the hit because they know they'll be investigated and possibly penalized if it looks like this is what they are doing. So I would imagine that they will be very careful to keep that from happening. The additional costs will be spread out over a much larger area so that the differential between California and the national average will not increase. That seems to be the safest and most rational course for these companies.

I'd like to hear Robert's estimate of how much this differential will increase, in pennies per gallon, along with some rationale for that figure.

The issue is not will-it/won't-it raise prices; the issue is how much will it raise prices? If it's a tiny amount like less than a penny a gallon, then for all intents and purposes it effectively doesn't raise prices. I notice that Robert does not give us a quantitative estimate of this.

It's really hard to say. It's like asking if a hurricane knocks off 25% of the refining capacity, how much will gas prices go up? It depends on a lot of factors. But it won't be a fraction of a cent.

One of the links I provided in the essay did provide a specific estimate:

Prop. 87: Paying at the Pump and Misdirecting Innovation

Supporters of Prop. 87 claim it will not increase gas prices for Californians, because it is a tax on oil company profits--not production. The proposition goes so far as to mandate that no costs may be passed on to consumers. But the authors of this proposition are no more able to repeal the laws of economics than they are able to legislate away the laws of gravity. University of Oregon professor Philip Romero estimated that after the tax is fully implemented and has been in place for several years prices would rise by as much as 13 percent.

13 percent seems a bit much to me, but I can easily see gas prices going up by a dime or more. In fact, I need to stop saying that prices will go up, because prices nationwide may be falling next year. What we will see is that the delta between California's average price and the average nationwide price will increase as a result of Prop 87. That is a specific prediction, which is opposite of what the proponents say is going to happen. So, you can mark down my prediction and hold me to it. Either way, I plan to track the delta because I think this will be a fascinating experiment.

All we really know is that oil companies will be cautious about making Californians specifically take the hit because they know they'll be investigated and possibly penalized if it looks like this is what they are doing.

That's not how product is priced. It is priced based on supply and demand. Oil companies are sitting around, looking at production costs, and then setting a price. They are looking at their inventories. Supply will be strained as a result of this initiative, and it will become more expensive as a result of this measure. This will cause the price delta to increase. Mark it down and hold me to it.

So is your prediction that the delta between California and the U.S. average will go up by a dime or more? Or is it just that "it will go up" (possibly by a fractional cent)?
I will go on record with a prediction that the delta will increase by at least a nickel. I won't be surprised to see it go up by more, but it depends on a lot of other factors. I was just looking at the deltas today between the U.S. and California. Actually, though, since California has a disproportionate impact on the rest of the country, if the average in California goes up, the average for the country will probably go up. So, let's say the average delta between California and Texas (or pick a few states) will increase by a nickel or more.

In reality, consumers won't bear the entire burden (otherwise, why would oil companies even fight the measure?) but I believe they will bear most of it through higher prices. I am making a testable claim, and I intend to test it. By all means, I encourage others to do so as well.

The oil industry bashing is mostly whining about the high cost of gas.  The appropriate response from industry is "we're not forcing anyone to use it."  However, there is some excessive-CEO-pay bashing, which is deserved throughout US companies.

FWIW, I think it's great when the oil industry points a finger at Microsoft.  Microsoft has a monopoly and it doesn't serve the public sufficiently for them to have such high profit margins.  I'm not addicted to oil, but I certainly recognize the world of hurt we would be in without the oil industry.  I write software for a living, and I don't think software is nearly as important.

I think Prop. 87 will go down in flames. I'll vote for it just to be contrary.

Remember the principle that says people (and all living systems) will do their best to blow through the available energy as quickly as possible. Prop. 87 is contrary to this principle. Hence, it will be considered Communistic, Islamic, Un-American, and stinky around the armpits.

You should have heard the guy they had on the radio advocating it. He sounded like some 25 year old just back from a no blood for oil protest. Hey no problemo from somebody like me but not the image that's going to win over people who aren't already in the choir. I was like why can't they find somebody a bit smoother than this guy?
Robert,

I don't know about where you live, but at the coffee shop in my small town, everybody is watching gasoline prices go down and they realize a national election is coming up.

They already don't trust the oil companies. If they see oil prices go back up after the election is over, it will confirm to them that Big Oil is just looting them out of their hard-earned income.

Can you guarantee the oil companies won't jack up prices as soon as the election is over?

Don,

People have such a misconception as to how prices are set. I even heard a CNN Money correspondent suggest there is a connection to the election. Prices fell last fall (after the initial hurricane spike), and there was no major election. Prices generally fall at this time every year, for reasons I will get into an upcoming essay.

I am closely involved with the group that actually sets prices. Prices are set based on demand. If our inventories are falling, we have to either allocate product or raise prices. Those are our only 2 choices. But people detest allocations. If we raise prices and everyone else has product, then our customers will go buy product from them. If everyone has the same falling inventory problems, then prices will go up. Right now, inventories are in rising, and crude prices are going down. Therefore, producers start cutting price to move product. They will do this until their inventories start to get back into good shape. If, for some reason, everyone decided to go on a driving vacation next week, prices would head right back up.

It has nothing to do with the election. I haven't done it, but I bet if you tracked price changes over the past several years, you wouldn't find any correlation to elections. You would see a seasonal pattern in which gas prices fall at this time every year - not just in election years. Of course last year showed the sharp spike from Hurricane Katrina, but then prices fell until the end of the year before heading back up.

I can't guarantee that prices won't go up after the election, but I can guarantee that if they do it won't be because of the election.

Whenever these guys start complaining about gas prices, I just tell them to trade in their those brand new giant pickups they've got parked out in front of the coffee shop.

"Why should I have to do that?" they say, "There's plenty of oil in Oklahoma that they're keeping hidden from us."

I have rarely seen more than a 10 cent wholesale price split between diesel & gasoline, never more than 18 cents.  (Gasolien was higher during summer a couple fo years ago when a refinign shortage appeared).

Now we are at roughly 65 cents !!  even for 0.5% sulpur diesel the split is without precedent.

What I suspect happened is that the refineries leaned heavily on gasoline yields in excess of market demand and then let the market take it's course.  No fingerprints, just cheap gas just before the election.

I am not normally a conspiracy buff, but this does NOT smell right !

Alan,

The split between diesel and gasoline has been gradually growing for a couple of years. There are a couple of reasons for it. The primary reason is that overseas refiners ship some finished gasoline to the U.S. which helps us meet our demand. However, many overseas markets, like Europe, use all of their diesel internally. They have a diesel economy. Therefore, we don't have anyone able to supply us extra diesel to meet our needs, and the supply/demand imbalance is worse than with gasoline.

The second thing is the move to ultra low sulfur diesel. Refiners yelled several years ago when this requirement was passed, because they thought they would have to eat the (very high) capital costs. I didn't think that would happen. I thought diesel prices would rise. ULSD is more expensive to produce, and some diesel is lost in the process. Given that most U.S. refineries are already configured to favor gasoline production, this exacerbates an already tight supply situation.

However, diesel inventories have been getting pretty high, so I expect some relief in the near future. But I don't expect diesel to be cheaper than gasoline in the foreseeable future.

I've been waiting a year for this to happen. I watched you guys just roll over yourselves backwards to not capitalize the  first "O" in oil CEO. Good job. Excellent job. Cuz you didn't do it. But somebody did. In fact most people that don't think about it do. That's why they call it Big Oil. Cuz it starts with a BIG "O"

It's OK, I'm not offended. I know you all just wanted to get across some point. I'm probably gonna change my name to 'Jihadi Death Cult' soon.

Hey Oil CEO, Do you have the link for the website which provides norway field by field month by month analysis?
Aww, c'mon. This is my playtime. I'm trying to flip between CNN, Fox, and CNBC to catch the latest comedy. My mind is somewhere else. Throw me an email if you want serious answers.

Seriously,though. I've been working on Norway. There was a real good article I saw the other day that I am still trying to track down. Amazingly, Leanan didn't see it. I think it might have been on Schlumberger or a similar site. I need those numbers,too.

Khebab has the best available stuff on Norway in detail. He and Westexas do a blog called Graphoilogy.

There's actually a huge bunch of Norwegians who post here who might throw this stuff to you.

I gotta go to work soon. Throw me an email at theoilceoatyahoodotcom. I don't get serious until about 12 hours from now. I'm trying to put together an opensource database on this stuff. Maybe you will be my Norway guy.

I asked this to to Westexas. I wantyed your opinion on whether this was a reasonable assumption.
By my rough calculations we have introduced 6.0 million barrels per day of capacity since october 2004 ( megaprojects online 2004 and 2005 + 2 million small unaccounted for fields over 2 years+ part capacity of projects started in 2006 (mega + small))
I am assuming all 2005 projects are at almost full capacity by now ( probably not true).
I am not taking into account the infill drilling.
So I am assuming about 6.0 million capacity minus the current nigerian outage (800,000), current hurricane lost capacity (200,000) and BP outage (200,000).
If we see that there is no statistical difference between october 2004 and now we have depletion at 4.8 million Barrels per day over about 2 years or about 3% AFTER INFILLING.
Is this a reasonable assessment?
Would appreciate your input. Plan to incorporate it in a talk at my University.
Thanks.    
When is your talk? If you can give me a reasonable timeline, I would be happy to give you all the help you need. I'll do all the graphics, put them in powerpoint, whatever you need.

Presently I'm working on export numbers. I've promised both Westexas and Jerome a Paris discussions on these topics. And believe it or not, I'm getting close. But I really won't discuss anything until I've followed through with those guys.

Westexas is really good. Jerome is too, but he is on a different continent and tends to be more political.

I will throw out some other names for help. Darwinian and Cry Wolf. Grey Zone is also really good with numbers, but I haven't seen him around in awhile.

So you tell me-

"Is this a reasonable assessment?"

If you've got a week, we will write a killer talk for you. If you have less time I would suggest just starting from about a week ago and read forward. Feel free to copy and paste anything you see. We don't give a shit. Just come back and post the final product for us to see(and own).

Like I say, throw me an email, or gimme a shout out later on. I got things I gotta take care of today.

Roger Conner, That'sItI'mAudiHere is real helpful, too. But I think he works, too. Plus I think he's from Kentucky. I don't know if you want Southerners contributing?

I have time. It is in November.
That offer is awfully generous. You taking this peak oil thing perosnally aren't you? I feel the same way. I am doing everything in my power to spread awareness but very few thick skulls penetrated yet. But it aint over until Al-Naimi sings.
November? Oh, Christ. You're all set. We'll finalize it at ASPO-Boston. Naimi will fly in his special operations team to do the Powerpoint presentation for you. Wait til you see the new 70-foot plasmas. Some Koreans I know have told me they are fantastic. Of course we'll have to negotiate whether any unveiled women can be present when it happens. But I'm guessing Leanan will be able to persuade him.
A common confusion: when one refers to an Oil Company or the United States in political discourse, one is referring to the top leadership of those institutions, not the working people within them. It is a rhetorical trick to conflate the two meanings.

On a personal note, I correspond with many hardworking, honest people in the Oil Companies who are concerned with Peak Oil, Climate Change and other societal problems.

'nuff said.

From Robert's title, Breaking Down Prop 87, I anticipated a dsicussion about the holes in the rationale in the proposition itself.  I don't give a damn if gas prices go up or Big Oil reduces investment in CA.  Nor do I care that corporations are not socially responsible (I worked for one that wasn't years ago - few are.)

What I do care about is that the goal(s) of the prop. are nebulous at best and a real pork barrel at worst.

Kevembuangga: I have hidden the images you posted. I have deemed them inappropriate for The Oil Drum. Please refrain from posting such images in the future.
My image-hiding trick didn't work on IE, so I had to delete the comment completely.
Nice of you to take things out of context.  Guess you can't win a battle of ideals with actual debate so you resort to images of blood and guts for a shock and awe solution.

As for my statements about using overwhelming force and how they relate to what I feel about the situation of my fellow human beings, did you ever consider that a short and overwhelming use of force might be preferable to the slow choking quagmire that Iraq appears to be dropping into now?

As tensions rise, and extend over a period of time I expect more and more gruesome incidents like those depicted.  A strong use of force in an effort to attain peace through victory might prevent the slow dragging stranglehold that the militants are placing on the Iraqi people and coalition troops.

For reference, WWII ended in a relatively short amount of time when the Americans actually entered the war and prosecuted it to the fullest.  Vietnam on the other hand dragged on because of the half assed attempt that was taken at it.   Iraq is looking a lot more like Vietnam than WWII because the lack of will the American people have in prosecuting this war.  What most people don't realize is that by holding back they are most probably advocating a lingering state of uncertainty, violence, and the possible chance of losing this war, and ending up with an unstable Iraq at a time when a stable Iraq is going to be needed by the world for its resources.

As for your pictures, I love the fact that you couldn't even get them from an impartial source.  In fact the source comes out and says that they cannot verify whether the pictures depict attacks on Iraqis made by coalition troops or militants.  Just that they are pictures from Iraq.  It also claims that these websites are being forced to shut down because of the pressure the White House places on them.  Sounds a little paranoid, but ok... Where's the proof?

Perhaps you should be seeing a recurring theme here.  I ask for proof, opinion, and dialogue and you respond with insults, gore, and half baked one-liners.  I am ignoring your barrage in an attempt to give you the chance to present your argument, and yet you can't put down the hostility long enough to actually do so.  I hope this is not the average capability for rational and civil debate that the anti-Iraq-war side can muster.  I was hoping to be able to find someone who could present a civil and thought out argument, but obviously you are not that person.