Breaking Down Prop 87
Posted by Robert Rapier on September 12, 2006 - 10:12am
Topic: Policy/Politics
Tags: california, oil companies, politics, proposition 87 [list all tags]
California's Proposition 87 promises to reduce oil consumption in California, at no expense to the consumer. I am quite sympathetic to the goal of reducing petroleum dependence. This is a goal to which we should all aspire. But I have my doubts that the promises being made by the Proposition 87 campaign can be kept. I also dispute many of the claims made by the Prop 87 proponents. Finally, I have a problem with the way the oil industry is being portrayed in order to win support for this measure.
[editor's note, by Prof. Goose] Don't forget the reddit and digg tip jars if you enjoy the piece.
Where I'm Coming From
I struggled with whether to put this section at the beginning or the end. Ultimately, I decided to open up with it, because I want you to know up front where I am coming from. You may consider this section a personal rant, designed to explain why I get upset with some of the rhetoric that is directed at my industry. I understand that this rhetoric plays well in Peoria, and everywhere else for that matter, but as an oil company employee I feel that this is unfair to a great many people.
Many people think of oil companies and see the face of Lee Raymond, ExxonMobil's recently retired CEO. I see the faces of the many men and women who work very hard to make sure the transportation industry can get the fuel they need to deliver food around the globe. I see the faces of many people who juggled operations to make sure that the airplanes recently used to fight fires in Montana and Washington had the aviation fuel they needed to do their jobs.
I admit that my views are shaped from working inside the oil industry. But that doesn't mean that my views are wrong. When people write that oil companies are evil incarnate, they aren't just talking about Lee Raymond. In fact, they are talking mostly about people like Tim Crank. Let me tell you about Tim. Three years ago, Tim was working on a pump at a refinery in Ponca City, Oklahoma. A release occurred while he was working, which resulted in an explosion and fire. Tim died from injuries received as a result of the fire, leaving behind a wife and two young children. This tragic incident will always be imprinted in my mind, because I witnessed it. I know how his family struggled to cope with his death. Furthermore, I know that just about everyone in this industry can tell a similar tragic story.
While some may see this personal story as a cynical or insincere ploy to generate sympathy, the reason I told this story is to let you know why I get angry when my entire industry is characterized in venomous terms. The vast majority of oil companies are made up of people like Tim Crank, just trying to do their jobs, and tragically sometimes losing their lives in the process. People outside the oil industry often view us with disdain, because they think of Big Oil and see Lee Raymond. I get defensive because I see Tim Crank, out there working to make sure the public gets their fix of cheap gas. That's why I won't sit idly by while people speak of my industry with contempt. The Prop 87 campaign has been guilty of this, and this is why they have my undivided attention.
Fact or Fiction?
One of my biggest pet peeves has to be misleading claims or fiction that masquerades as fact. Following are some examples from the "Key Facts" page at the Yes on 87 site.
Yes on 87 "Fact": Oil companies that oppose Prop 87 posted record-setting profits in the last five consecutive quarters -- $78.3B in 2005 and $20.5B in the first quarter alone of this year.
Reality: Oil companies have in fact done very well lately. The oil industry is cyclical, and the current 10% earnings on sales is much better than the historical 5-7% earnings on sales. Of course these numbers pale in comparison to companies like Microsoft, who are earning 26.5% on sales. Microsoft recently had profits of $2.89 billion on revenues of $10.9 billion. Oil companies would love to see those kinds of margins. The overall numbers are larger for many oil companies, simply because the companies are much, much larger even than Microsoft. But record-setting profits are pretty meaningless unless placed in context.
Yes on 87 "Fact": CA is the third largest oil-producing state, but the only one where the oil companies don't pay oil drilling fees like they do in other states.
Reality: This claim is false. There are a number of states in which no drilling fees are paid. Furthermore, according to this article:
Except for California, most oil producing states rely on a severance tax for the majority of oil revenues. Yet contrary to popular belief, California does not place an abnormally light tax burden on crude oil producers. Considering both tax and royalty revenues, state government revenues from oil production in California amounted to 13.4 percent of the value of nonfederal production in the state, well above comparable rates for Oklahoma, Texas, and Wyoming.
Yes on 87 "Fact": Oil companies are gouging California consumers at the pumps with the highest prices in the nation.
Reality: As you will learn in this essay, the reason Californians pay some of the highest gas prices in the nation is that they have some of the highest gasoline taxes in the nation. Besides that, I dispute that anyone is being gouged. First, provide a definition of "gouging", and then I will get back with you on that one. I suspect we would find that pretty much anyone who sells into a rising market would be guilty of the same kind of gouging. Most people in California who have sold a home at a nice profit would certainly be guilty of gouging.
Yes on 87 "Fact": Oil companies are blocking our access to cleaner, cheaper fuels.
Reality: This is a ludicrous claim. Oil companies have made big investments into solar, wind , and biofuels. In fact, the only company running a large scale cellulosic ethanol trial, Iogen, is receiving major funding from Shell.
Yes on 87 "Fact": Prop 87 makes it illegal for oil companies to raise gas prices to pass the cost along to consumers.
Reality: Prices are affected by supply and demand, not by propositions that declare it illegal to raise gas prices. Hawaii recently tried an experiment in price controls, despite warnings that consumers would be harmed. When the warnings came true, Hawaii abandoned this experiment.
Yes on 87 "Fact": Requires strict accountability; nonpartisan, expert oversight and no new bureaucracy.
Reality: Where I see no accountability at all is if this measure fails to achieve the desired results. In my opinion, it will raise gasoline prices for California consumers, while penalizing shareholders of oil companies. Where is the accountability to those groups for their lost dollars should this measure fail?
Yes on 87 "Fact": California deserves its fair share and the oil companies can afford to pay it. But the opposition is lining up, contributing millions of dollars to spin, scare and deceive voters.
Reality: Following this essay, you can decide whether California is getting a "fair share". You will also see that some Prop 87 proponents are guilty of spin and deception.
Truth in Advertising
I am confident that Prop 87 will raise gas prices in California. That's fine with me, because this should increase conservation. However, the Prop 87 proponents are promising Californians that there will be no increase in gas prices. Californians are being promised a free lunch; that in fact this new $4 billion tax will be borne entirely by oil companies.
I don't see it that way. Each year, oil companies decide where they will allocate capital based on expected returns for various projects. After the initiative passes, it will be less profitable to extract oil in California. The expected returns for some capital projects in California will decrease. California will get just a bit smaller capital allocation from corporate budgets, which over time will squeeze supplies. Not only will the returns from California be lower, but initiatives such as this are viewed as hostile toward the industry, providing another disincentive for investing capital in California. As investment slows and gasoline capacity fails to keep up with demand, higher prices will result.
Some proponents have declared this scenario unrealistic, because oil and gas prices are set on the global market. For example, in a recent report, ABC news reporter Mark Matthews asked the following question: "But will 87 raise the price of gas?" He then answered the question with "The price of oil is set on a world market, not state by state." What many people don't seem to understand is that there isn't a single price for oil. Oil prices vary greatly in different locations based on a number of factors, as Ana rightly pointed out in her previous essay. Prop 87 will improve the economics for importing oil into California, simply because it will increase the operating costs for California oil producers. So, even though West Texas Intermediate, for example, is set on the world market, the price for crudes produced in California will reflect California's specific circumstances. And those specific circumstances are set to change with passage of this proposition.
In fact, it seems that the only people who think gas prices won't be impacted are the Prop 87 proponents. According to California Politics Today:
Proposition 87 may prohibit an "oil tax pass-through," but everyone but its sponsors agrees it will raise gas prices at the pump.Protecting consumers from price increases at the pump based on the levying of this tax is the implicit promise of Proposition 87's proponents and the form in which they are promising California voters the always-popular something for nothing, not to mention, as will be heard in the interviews below, promising to repeal the basic economic law of supply and demand, which, in this context, amounts to the same thing.
Making "it illegal to pass the cost to us" is not the same as guaranteeing that passing Proposition 87 won't, on its own, cause gasoline prices to rise.
As can be heard in the four interviews below with a range of experts and advocates in the fields of energy and economics, adding to the cost of oil produced in California cannot help but cause an increase in the price to consumers in California of gasoline.
So, in the interest of truth in advertising: Prop 87 will widen the gap between gas prices in California and the national average. Guaranteed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, since this will promote conservation.
Make Them Pay Their Fair Share. And Then Some.
Proponents of Prop 87 paint a picture in which oil companies operating in California are not paying their fair share for extracting California's resources. They will note that Texas has an extraction fee, and argue that California is getting a raw deal from the oil companies. However, to get an accurate comparison, we have to look at the entire taxation picture.
There are a number of ways that states receive revenue as a result of oil and gas transactions. Extraction taxes are but one example. Corporate income taxes are another example. So, even though Texas has an extraction tax of 4.6%, versus none for California, Texas does not charge oil companies a corporate income tax. California, on the other hand, charges oil companies an income tax rate of 8.84%, one of the highest in the nation. When times are good and oil companies are making big profits, states like California share in the "windfall."
According to the Long Beach Chamber of Commerce:
Oil producers pay the state corporate income tax on profits earned in California. California's corporate income tax rate is among the highest of the top producing states. Texas, in fact, does not have a corporate income tax at all which provides producers a competitive advantage over California in trying to attract capital investment. California producers also pay a regulatory fee to the Department of Conservation (regulates oil production in the state) that is assessed on production, with the exception of production in federal offshore waters.
So, despite the claims that oil companies in California are not paying their fair share, they already pay a much greater percentage of their income to the state than they do in Texas. I bet oil companies would have no problem at all with the proposed extraction tax if California wants to waive the corporate income tax as Texas does.
Of course taxes on gasoline sales also provide a large revenue stream for state governments, but these taxes are paid directly by consumers. In California, not only does the state get $0.14 a gallon, they also assess a sales tax of 8.75%. When gasoline is $3 a gallon, this means that California receives $0.32 a gallon in combined sales and excise taxes. Here is the breakdown of gasoline taxes, according to the San Francisco Chronicle:
If you're paying about $3 a gallon at the pump in Alameda County where the sales tax is 8.75 percent, here is an estimated breakdown of who gets what:-- Fuel price per gallon: $2.40
-- Federal Excise Tax: $0.18
-- State Excise Tax: $0.18
-- Sales tax for state government: $0.14
-- State bond debt payment: $0.01
-- Sales tax for local government: $0.10
I can tell you without a doubt that the government take is significantly higher than the income that oil companies earn in California. In fact, according to the same article:
Since 2002, sales tax revenues on gas have been growing annually by $300 million to $400 million to reach $2.86 billion in 2005, according to the California Board of Equalization."There's a lot of blame to go around (when it comes to high fuel prices), but the government certainly should be on the list," said Bill Leonard, a member of the Board of Equalization. "The government is the biggest profiteer of them all."
Higher prices at the pump are one reason the state will see a sizable revenue windfall this year. When Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger updates his budget proposal Friday, he is expected to announce that the overall tax revenue is expected to be $5 billion more than his earlier estimate in January.
Isn't it interesting that the government is receiving the biggest windfall of all? It would seem that the logical place for the Prop 87 proponents to grab alternative energy funds would be some of this government windfall, given that this tax is already in place.
It also appears that the high state gasoline tax is the primary reason per capita usage of gasoline in California is low. After all, there is a very strong correlation between the states with the highest gasoline taxes - New York, Hawaii, California, Nevada, and Illinois - and the lowest per capita users of gasoline. While low per capita gas usage is certainly a good thing, it indicates that high state taxes result in lower product sales for oil companies in California than if California had Texas' $0.20/gallon gasoline tax rate. Again, I am sure oil companies wouldn't object much to Prop 87 if there was going to be a reduction to the sales tax rate, because they would sell more product. But the point is that the high gasoline tax is also affects the profits of oil companies in California.
The bottom line? Texas adopted one model: No corporate income tax, low gasoline taxes (leading to higher consumption), but an oil extraction tax. California adopted a different model: High corporate income tax, high gasoline taxes (leading to lower consumption), but no oil extraction tax. To suggest that oil companies are not paying their fair share in California simply because they don't pay an extraction tax is a grotesque mischaracterization of the actual tax situation.
A Transfer of Wealth
While the stated intent of Prop 87 is to make California less dependent on petroleum, let's be clear on exactly what it will do. Prop 87 is a transfer of wealth from one industry to a competing industry. In most cases, various subsidies are funded by taxes that we all pay in, and in fact many of the alternative technologies that Prop 87 would fund already receive very generous government subsidies. But on top of that, the proponents argue that it is appropriate to take from one special interest and give to another, because oil dependence is not good for us.
Let's put this in perspective. Fast food isn't good for us. Would most people consider it appropriate to place an additional tax on McDonalds and Burger King, and funnel the proceeds into health food stores? Would it be appropriate if I funded an initiative to achieve this, while at the same time investing in the health food stores that would benefit? Does anyone have a problem with that? Wouldn't it be more effective to assess a tax on the people who frequent McDonalds, if my goal is to reduce dependence on McDonalds? Why is it appropriate to assess an additional tax burden on one industry and funnel the money to a competitor? Why is it not more appropriate to funnel the windfall that government has received to fund alternative energy projects?
Most supporters of this transfer of wealth don't have a problem with it, but the money will mostly come from average working families and retirees who invested their money into company shares or into a mutual fund that owns company shares. These are the owners of Big Oil. It isn't primarily the Lee Raymond's that you are taking money from. The $4 billion comes from shareholders, and the "free lunch" comes at their expense.
And where is the accountability here? Let's say that Prop 87 does not have the desired effect of reducing petroleum consumption. Furthermore, let's say that it does indeed increase gasoline prices for California consumers, despite the assurances of the proponents. Ignoring for now the fact that Big Oil will of course be blamed for the increase in gas prices, how will Prop 87 proponents rectify this with the people of California? How will they rectify it with the shareholders from whom they extracted the $4 billion? The truth is, they won't be accountable for the failure of this measure. It will just be a $4 billion "oops", that is going to end up financially hurting a lot of people.
Lessons from Proposition 42
In 2002, California voters approved Proposition 42. According to this analysis of Proposition 42:
Proposition 42 would permanently dedicate revenues from the state's share of the sales tax on gasoline to transportation projects. This sales tax on gasoline is already collected at the pump and generates roughly $1.3 billion a year.
Now that seems like a pretty good proposition to me. Take the sales tax that is being collected, and dedicate some of those funds to reducing the demand for petroleum (sort of like Prop 87, except you aren't taking money from the shareholders). 20% of the funds were supposed to be spent for mass transit and intercity rail. Fast forward to 2006:
Sales Tax on Gasoline a Bonanza for State
We find that the words "permanently" and "dedicated" are quite easily dispensed with:
Revenue from state sales tax on gasoline is supposed to go for transportation projects under Proposition 42, which voters approved in 2002. But in recent years, legislators and the governor have invoked special provisions of the ballot measure that allowed them to dip into that fund, moving about $2.5 billion to pay for other expenses.
Hopefully, Prop 87 funds can't be similarly diverted. But it does make me wonder whether the legislature might be able to divert these funds into other areas.
Conclusion
I predict Prop 87 will pass, primarily because people see it as a way to stick it to Big Oil. I think the measure will decrease gasoline consumption in California, by making gasoline more expensive. Furthermore, I predict that the measure will be abandoned well before $4 billion is raised as the price disparity in California's gasoline market widens over the national average.
I actually favor higher gas prices, though. I think that will extend our supplies of oil. But I do have a problem with deceptive claims, especially when they are aimed at my industry. If I was in California, I am still not sure how I would vote. I think proponents missed an opportunity to write a much better proposition. I understand their need to write a politically palatable initiative, but I am turned off by hollow political promises. In conclusion, if you cast your vote for Prop 87, at least make sure you are voting based on facts, and not on spin.
Disclaimer: Once again, I want to make it clear that to my knowledge, my company is not fighting this measure, nor have they contributed any money toward doing so. I don't believe that we extract oil from California.. So, I have nothing to gain financially from supporting or opposing this measure. I am also not a resident of California, so my comments are those of an unaffected party.



The work that the oil industry has done over the past 100 years easily rivals the space program.
My father worked his whole career for Unocal, and I worked in the oil fields while in college. I'm a nice guy, and maybe my father was, but that doesn't mean anything at the level where these criticisms apply.
But Sally and Joe are part of that industry. When people hurl venom, do you think Sally and Joe are unaffected? When people pass misguided legislation aimed at punishing the industry, do you think it doesn't affect Sally and Joe?
My defense is not a blanket defense of the oil industry. There are many areas that we need improvement in. There are many areas that we need to change. My defense in this instance is aimed at misinformation and misguided finger-pointing. It is aimed at the charges that we are ripping people off.
Bull.
I'm tired of all this "Criticizing the war is attacking our courageous troops" bull, and I think everyone else is too. Of course we're not attacking the people at the bottom - they have no power in decision making. One gets angry at the brain of an entity(the CEO, the commander in chief, etc), not its toes. And when people percieve they are being screwed, they have a right to get angry.
If someone alleges that the oil industry is {profiteering/pricefixing/gauging/jaywalking}, they're talking about the decision making bodies of the industry. If Sally the Gas Pumper or Joe the Geologist can't seperate themselves from the bigwigs mentally, that's their problem - and because of it(and the PO-related events coming) they might not be suited to the industry.
The CEOs, and Heads of State like most any man or woman, are a mix of good and evil, wise and foolish, and lucky and unlucky, just like any OTHER human being.
The reason so much attention gets focused their way is because every action they make gets magnified in importance because of their position but what many seem to forget is that just because they have moved into a position of power doesn't make them super-human.
A prime example of a man who I think is being crucified far beyond what is needed, or even permitted by law is Ken Lay. Did he do some stupid and corrupt things? Given the evidence it certainly looks so. Did he also do some good and benevolent things, yes he did. He was very civic minded, and also gave lots to Houston local charities churches and programs. He was a blend of good and bad traits like most human beings, but the only thing you will ever hear about are the bad. Its unfortunate because despite his mistakes, he did have many positive impacts as well.
What's worse, is the desire for blood is rabid enough, that post-mortem, there is an attempt to re-write law in order to continue a prosecution against him. He's dead. By law that means there is no case, and as far as his involvement in things it should be buried along with him. But people feel so cheated out of their revenge, they are willing to sacrifice a major principle of our justice system, the right of the accused to be present, in order to get at him.
This is what blanket blaming leads too. Irrational and seething anger, to the point where it blinds people to very evils they are committing to counter whatever it is they are angry at. If you got a problem with the way something is being handled then try to be specific.
Personally I support the war in Iraq, I think it was a needed action(regardless if 9/11 had happened), I think the ideals set forth by Bush at its inception were good ones, and I think our troops are doing a pretty bang up job considering the uphill battle they seem to be caught in. My criticisms of the war have more to do with our policy makers in how we are to go about the mission(that includes Bush and crew). And when I try to explain my position to people about the war, I try to frame it in a manner that directs my frustration at the portion of the war machinery I find faulty. But I don't say, I hate the whole war, or support the whole war as a blanket statement.
Admittedly I'm not perfect about this approach on every subject, and its something that probably has to be re-trained in the way we think. By human nature we divied and classify things, the problem is sometimes we don't divied and classify into sufficient detail and that is where the mistakes in our inputs end up resulting in the mistakes in our conclusions. Detail and precision are everything when trying to correctly analyze problems.
Lots of people say the world is a series of shades of grey. I've come to the conclusion that if grey is being seen, then chances are the focus isn't detailed enough. Chances are that grey is actually a bunch of blacks and whites if one were to bother focusing on the pixelation of the issue.
PS: if RR did get mugged for merely being part of the oil industry would you still feel the same way about blanket blaming?
Ouch!
I suppose you are disappointed, are you?
If not, no need to reply.
I you are disappointed can you tell us what you expected and what made you think that your expectations were realistic?
Further while Saddam was somewhat insane, his boys who stood to ascend to the throne so to speak were even nuttier, and dealing with Iraq during the rule of the evil we knew I think was more advantagous, than dealing with Iraq during the rule of the evil we didn't know. And Saddam was getting up there in years.
At the time, and given the intelligence provided I thought the case for WMDs was sufficient, especially as I was watching the UN become the laughing stock of the world because it lacked the teeth needed to enforce its own resolutions (not just the ones on WMDs but also the ones on humanitarian, and treaty clauses from Gulf War 1, and the internal corrupt oil for food programs). Essentially the lead up to Iraq, and then outcry of the UN against the US led coalition sealed the UN as just another League of Nations in my book.
But back to Iraq. My initial expectations were pretty much fully met with the initial offensive. A crushing roll over within a few weeks of operations. The subsequent rebuilding phase is where I think things are being botched, and where I think by our actions we have emboldened Islamic extremists and in the end given the appearance of a paper tiger(whether that appearance is true or not is irrelevant).
With the militants uprising around Iraq, and the soft response to those uprisings, the extremist Muslim mind sees in us a people unwilling to wage war to its fullest, and so as a result they now think that if they wage war more fully than us, they will win. A philosophy that I worry may end up proving true.
My first opinion on how to handle Iraq's rebuilding differently would've been to split the country into its 3 ethnic portions and help each portion form their own constitutional democracy/republic (a variation of Sen. Biden's plan if I remember correctly). This would've provided a useful tool to the Bush administration as it would've allowed them to first avoid rival power grabbing(and subsequent violence) from the sects, and further provide three examples of varying states of success and failure, and use those examples for both public relations to the American people and the world, and for a prod to those sectarian portions who were failing.
This would've also had the side benefit in that the Kurdish province(which had already hashed out a fairly good start to a working government ,with the beginnings of a basic constitution, during the no-fly zone period) could be used as a tool against Iran who controls several Kurdish dominated provinces and if properly supported, the US and Kurds could be doing to Iran, what Iran and the Shiites are doing to Iraq and the US now(a tool which might have helped to diffuse the current Iranian nuclear situation, or at least provided us another bargaining chip).
The other advantage in breaking up Iraq would've been a prevention of the entirety of Iraq falling into civil war as it risks currently doing. If the Kurds, or Sunnis or Shiites had regional infighting in their portions I think the containment of that infighting would've been more easily handled.
Further, I think the use of force and reward would've been more dynamic in a split portioned Iraq. In a province say like Falluja(sp?) where uprising had been fierce, a response of cordoning off the city, providing a 48 hour time table for civilians to leave(with the subsequent searching of weapons on those leaving), followed by a barrage of C130 gunships putting one bullet every square foot in the city(something that looks absolutely amazing in time lapsed photogrpahy), and therefore killing any person left inside would've removed the paper tiger the Muslims think they see now. In otherwords the Muslims respect and fear strength, so show them American strength, but with the 48 hour evacuation we maintain our humanitarian obligations by allowing civilians to get out of the way.
In reverse, for those provinces which showed stability, peace and progress, rewards of additional aid and infrastructure would provide further encouragement to work with the US. Essentially a re-enforcement of the "We can be your best friend or worst enemy" image.
Basically the lack of willingness to use overwhelming force and unequivically win peace through victory, combined with the lack of forsight in forcing 3 hostile factions to come together in one government not being ruled by tyrannical force is my problem with the administration of this war. Two strategic policy mistakes in my opinion, which may cost us the whole shebang.
However, invasion and occupation I don't think was evaluated as to the risks involved with it.
Your idea to level villages that have uprising, after humanitarianly warning the citizens might have some effect, however I'm not sure in practice it would be possible to carry it out in a humanitarian way since the bad guys would probably force the civilian population to stay and be slaughtered by our gunships through force, coercion etc. But, it would do something and such tactics are what have been used by other occupations. The Romans, I have been told would - if even one Roman soldier was killed would burn the village, sow the fields with salt and execute every adult male (age 12+ ?) and sell the women and children into slavery. Successful occupations are brutal and not really something i think most Americans want to be in the practice of.
One of the problems I think exists with modern warfare (that is war after WWII), is that the countries who are striving to keep peace amongst civilizations have tried to bring civilization to war. War by its definition is a most uncivilized practice.
Tyrants and dictators have become less and less afraid of becoming aggressors and brutal killers. I think a lot of this is because they know the UN, and those nations which give the UN its muscle(as little as that is) won't fully prosecute a war to its most terrible conclusions. They hide behind the very rules of war we(Europe and the US) formed after WWII to try and limit civilian casualties. This puts civilians directly in the path of harm as they become human shields.
I sometimes wonder if more civilians would be spared if we just made it a point to all aggressors that if they violate the rules of war, then we toss them also, and show true unrestrained destruction upon them and their armies. Problem right now is we keep our hands tied while they fire Anti-Aircraft guns beside homes, or take up sniper positions from inside family's houses, or launch rockets from beside a UN watchpost, or suicide bomb markets, and disco studios.
They know we will play by the rules even if they don't. And in their minds us staying by the rules is not a sign of strength and humanitarian restraint(as we view it), it is viewed as weakness, and an exploit in our armor. And they will keep picking out at that chink in our armor until they finally cause us to seriously bleed or die from it.
Well, we've done it before in Dresden and Hiroshima. I didn't approve of those either. I do believe in the protective use of force however. Just not the current administration's interpretation of it.
They know we will play by the rules even if they don't.
Yeah. Like Abu Ghraib. Like Guantanamo. (both violations of the Geneva Convention). Like cluster bombs. Like Falujah. I wish we did play by the rules rather than pretending to.
As for Abu Graib, the people who committed those acts are being punished. The system works, and we kept ourselves accountable. If they had been ignored, then I would say the US failed its obligations.
As for Guantanamo, that subject is being hashed out right now in the legislature and courts. Again the system is in the process of working it out. It may be slow, and it may be imperfect but at least we have processes and law that we at least try to follow. I doubt the terrorists give a flying flip about law.
Cluster Bombs, I don't think are illegal. They are disdained and there is now fresh criticism of their use because of the Isreali-Lebanon situation, but technically I don't think any laws broken. If I'm wrong please feel free to point out the section in international law banning their use. I'm always up for learning something new for the day.
Falujah? Please elaborate what greivance you are trying to insinuate here. Preferably back it up with a reference so I can read for myself and come to some conclusions. Falujah is in the news a lot, so just stating the place doesn't specify an incident.
Anyhow I'm off to go chill out for the evening. SQL and the poorly maintained database I was converting has fried me out.
Oh Really? Care to prove that point.
Other than some low level scapegoats, show us one senior ranking civilian that has been tried and convicted for war crimes relating to AG.
I'll keep it exclusive. Just me and you. If you need some help, I'll let you have Angry Chimp and AlistairC. Trust me, you will need them, they are good. I'll take Jack Greene to fact-check me. Other than that, I think I can prove myself.
Here. Read Bing West's article in latest Altantic Monthly. (C'mon fishies, fall for the bait, fall for the bait).
Fail to prosecute those who made the infractions and we are the worst human rights violators in the world!
Prosecute them, and it turns out that they are just scapegoats for the super secret shadow government!
It would be inconceivable to think that maybe, just maybe, we happened to have a collection of psychotic bored off their ass nitwit MPs who thought it might be fun to put these prisoners through some good old fashion college hazing, and have a real life edition of Jackass using Iraqi prisoners. And by the way before it gets misconstrued, thats not an excuse for their behavior, its an indictment of it, and of the idiocy the American Public has for watching sadistic morons on TV and thinking its "cool".
Good Lord man, put down the Kool Aid!
See anything familiar? C'mon let's start being friends again. It's so much easier that way. Otherwise, I'll just keep on pretending. I'm serious. Maybe we need Hezbollah to broker the cease fire.
It does not matter what YOU think (we kept ourselves accountable), what matters is what THEY think.
No "mind control" available to you in muslim countries, ol'Rupert doesn't own the MSM over there.
Don't forget to apply for the Nobel Prize!
Before WWII, bombing civilian targets was seen as barbaric. By the end of the war, both sides were doing it. Topped off with our bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Korea. Vietnam. Chechnya. Kosovo. Iraq 2003. (and especially) Lebanon 2006. Have really honed our(the world's) thinking on this one.
I guess my point is that "bombing civilian targets" has always been seen as barbaric. Just to what extent? And what does it mean about "us"(again, the world). I think these are more important issues.
What do the Chinese think?
So you expected "the plan" to be true to the public statements, "building democracy"?
My first opinion on how to handle Iraq's rebuilding differently would've been to split the country into its 3 ethnic portions
You had your OWN plan!
And you expected TPTB to be aware of it and act accordingly?
In otherwords the Muslims respect and fear strength, so show them American strength, but with the 48 hour evacuation we maintain our humanitarian obligations by allowing civilians to get out of the way.
You think that the "insurgents" would have been stupid enough NOT TO EVACUATE along with the civilians?
Actually this is what they mostly did except for a few willing "martyrs" meant to take revenge.
It is true that "[Arabs] (NOT Muslims) respect and fear strength" but they are also tribalists keen on revenge and vendetta.
Once you have killed/wounded even ONE tribesman then you cannot get rid of the tribe short of blood money or ethnic cleansing.
Do you condone ethnic cleansing?
Would you have your tax dollars thrown at the families of the "nasty insurgents"?
This happened BTW, another "lack of teeth"...
In reverse, for those provinces which showed stability, peace and progress, rewards of additional aid and infrastructure would provide further encouragement to work with the US.
With Haliburton and likewise gobbling up 90% of the reconstruction budgets on "security & misc. expenses" and achieving less than 10% of the goals?
"We can be your best friend or worst enemy"
I guess Iraqis noticed mostly the "worst enemy" (Warning, GRUESOME)
Basically the lack of willingness to use overwhelming force
How do you use "overwhelming force" against IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices)?
If there were a Supidity Nobel Prize you will be the FIRST nominee!
P.S. To avoid any misunderstanding let me remind you that I am strongly anti-islamic.
First of all, no need to be nasty. You asked for my opinion and I gave it honestly. I don't just dismiss and call names at the people who auto-react in an anti-Iraq tirade. I listen to their arguments, if they have any and either refute or consider them. It is in fact my open mindedness to view both sides of the situation which has led me to my current position of the war was needed, but badly prosecuted.
Most "pro-war" individuals I've met have almost no criticism for the current execution and likewise most Anti-war individuals refuse to even consider that Iraq was a problem that had to be dealt with either by war or some other means. Both sides in their extremes are putting the plugs in their ears and refusing to see either the issue that Iraq originally represented before the war, or the problems our current handling of the war is causing.
So give me some credit in that I'm not toeing the Bush line and being a Yes man to the administration's every move.
I've never claimed to have all the answers, and while I've given the Iraq situation some thought, I'm neither a professional General nor a politician(President or Congressman) with better information gathering abilities and advisors. I'm simply a citizen who is looking at the situation in Iraq, seeing a problem and thinking perhaps that a different approach may have been better.
<quote>You had your OWN plan!
And you expected TPTB to be aware of it and act accordingly? </quote>
Not saying my approach is perfect, or even refined, just that it was another option that was mentioned and debated (Sen. Biden like I said brought it up), and it was dismissed by Rumsfeld in a press conference when a reporter asked about the option. So the administration obviously had heard about the plan but chose against it. I don't know their reasons for choosing against it, but I do have to wonder why they would throw away the Kurdish attempt at self-government during the no-fly period, and the choice not to use a divide and conquer approach to handling Ethnically hostile factions during the rebuilding phase. Especially since this scenario in many ways is similar to the former Yugoslavia and subsequent Kosovo conflict. This observation is perhaps more in focus now that I see how events are unfolding in hindsight, but when I first heard of the idea being hashed out, I thought that it sounded good then.
<quote>You think that the "insurgents" would have been stupid enough NOT TO EVACUATE along with the civilians?
</quote>
They very well may have evacuated. But in the process how many leaders might we have snagged in the process of them coming out. Not saying this will net us every grunt stock soldier, but it would've flushed out leaders into our waiting blockade, and further, would've forced them to leave behind weapons and supplies they needed to prosecute their uprising.
Further if you took that action in conjunction with the 3 provinces solution, you would also provide a motivation for those Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni militias and their leaders to do something about the militants. If you were in the running to be a head of the new Shiite or Sunni state would you want your cities being razed? Or would you order your militias to find those militants before the US decided to raze another one. Not much use in ruling a nation if there is no infrastructure left.
Also with a tri-State approach, you remove many of the militants we are fighting now because now a lot of the militants are sectarian fighters. With the borders drawn an attack by militias across border would be easily tracable and punishable back to the province that committed it. Currently with one large State the US is tied because it can't risk alienating one faction or the other for fear of bringing the whole country in Civil War.
<quote>Once you have killed/wounded even ONE tribesman then you cannot get rid of the tribe short of blood money or ethnic cleansing</quote>
Active Ethnic cleansing no, but if their whole tribe wants to make itself a target by committing to a vendetta then its not going to bother me if they self select themselves out of the species.
<quote>With Haliburton and likewise gobbling up 90% of the reconstruction budgets on "security & misc. expenses" and achieving less than 10% of the goals?
</quote>
Pretty numbers... proof please? Preferably a listing of the projects they bid on in comparison with competitors, their current government assessment of completeness would be nice. I've asked for this before from someone who quoted similar numbers, and they never could. Or at least they never could find evidence that supported their outragous numbers. Not saying Haliburton is a bunch of angels, but I think their depiction in Iraq by the left is a little excessive.
<quote>How do you use "overwhelming force" against IEDs </quote>
You don't... you use it against the guys making them. That being said, again a tri-State solution would allow us to leverage local friendly militias in our efforts to monitor roads. Currently since the militias are hostile, or luke-warm at best, we can't employ them in our effort to subdue the more extremist militants, because we can't trust the militias because they are busy fighting each other.
Again, I'll admit I'm playing armchair General, but I've heard a lot of ideas on the current situation and seeing that we are running into problems I think looking at alternatives is a valuable excercise. Do I get or even want to make the calls... not really. I don't envy the position of the President or any of the people involved in rebuilding Iraq. Its a tough series of decisions and one that I think would heavily on anyone with any sort of decency.
I give you credit. The tactics you suggest are the things that should be discussed in congress before going into a war of conquest and occupation. The complete destruction of cities and its inhabitants may be an effective example-making response in an occupation to resisting forces. In the modern age, however the video images that such things generate would ferment worldwide opinion (as opposed to the much local effect that the Romans enjoyed). The question is do we want to take on that task? The debate was never had. That debate will probably not be had in this case.
However, at some point, when the Shiite military is trained and outfitted with modern weaponry and armor, the question will arise as to our response when they seek to put down Sunni opposition with brutal measures. Mabe Iran will lend a helping hand to them. I'm not taking sides, I just lament that these kinds of really forseeable eventualities were not seriously discussed in our democratic system before launching these events.
Whenever I encounter suspiciously devious arguments I usually think that the author has some concealed agenda.
But in your case all what you say is SO OUTSTANDINGLY STUPID that I don't believe it can be faked.
Do you have any opinions that you would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your peers?
If the answer is no, you might want to stop and think about that. If everything you believe is something you're supposed to believe, could that possibly be a coincidence? Odds are it isn't. Odds are you just think whatever you're told.
Tell me, if you don't support a tri-state system what would you support instead?
If you don't think overwhelming force would help to put the militants down, then what would you do?
We are in Iraq now, and we need an exit strategy. So tell me, how would YOU get out of this problem?
You seem to have a lot of venom aimed at tearing people down. Now lets see if you have something constructive to add to the argument. You don't think we should be in Iraq, so tell me how do we get out in a timely manner and preferably in a manner that won't leave that country and possibly the region in chaos?
Like I said, I'm willing to listen to the arguments, and I'm even courteous enough to keep my tongue civil, a disability I'm overlooking in your case in an effort to get a glimpse into the mindset of an opposing viewpoint. So could you at least oblige my restraint and time spent on this argument with an alternative solution you think would work?
I'd love to learn more about the mindset you hold, that is if you even have one on this matter beyond a kneejerk reaction of anti-war, anti-war, anti-war. Convince me... Win me to your argument. Here's a hint though: name calling won't get you very far.