62 comments on Business air travel
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
62 comments on Business air travel
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
- What "Lower Consumption" Means
- Tricking and Treating the Future
- Meeting Energy Decline Part-Way - Potatoes?
TOD:Europe
- The US stimulus and "green jobs"
- EROWI - energy return of water invested
- An interview with Stoneleigh - the case for deflation
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Saturday 7th November 2009
- The Bullroarer - Friday 30th October 2009
- Details of Solar Flagships Released
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- The Energy Blog
- Entropy Production
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know, it's what we know for sure that just ain't so.”
—Mark Twain
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Though they won't disappear overnight. I suspect we'll end up with one government-run airline, which normal people, even normal business people, can rarely afford to use. By the time it fades away, few will miss it.
Around the time my children go into retirement, so even they won't notice.
[A working definition of "demise of mass air-travel" might be when the point is reached when only the upper-classes can afford to fly on any sort of regular basis; and when those of lesser means are only able to do so at tremendous cost under the most extraordinary of circumstances.]
I think it's likely to happen before most of the people posting to this blog retire. The airlines are in a death spiral right now. It will only get worse as fuel prices rise, the economy falters, and travelers - business and leisure - cut back.
A modern airliner consumes about 3 litres of fuel per 100km per passenger seat. I don't know what is current price of kerrosine, but perhaps we could assume it is something like 0,5 euros per litre.
So, how much fuel for 10000km trip costs per passenger? Currently it is then 150 euros. Not very much if you compare with price of whole trip. If you then add for example hotel costs of one week business trip, this is really small.
How much price of kerrosine have to rise in order to destroy air travel? Price of oil goes to 600 dollars per barrel, the fuel costs will be 1500 euros. Well, maybe companies will stop doing some trips, but for big bosses this is not much. Price of oil goes to 1200 dollars (eh?), 3000 euros for fuel. Companies will stop doing more trips, but if you compare this with current ticket prices of first class intercontinental flight, not a big deal.
So, I think air travel will not suffer very much because of rising fuel prices, but because people start to save in everything and try to find new places to save. Reducing travelling is probably one place.
Regarding business air travel, current US ticket costs are dramatically less (many US round trips were over $1500!) than they were a few years ago on account of competition from Southwest and Jetblue, even though fuel costs have tripled. As an aside, if we turned to a single state airline, costs would rise and service would decline, probably sharply in both cases. (Talk about ignoring the benefits of deregulation.)
As noted, if we all have less disposable income on account of higher fuel costs, we will do without some things, and vacations may be one of these, but this is a second order effect.
Shipping costs are for most US imports a very small portion of the cost, in some cases microscopic, so will be very little affected by rising fuel costs. The situation is a little worse for grain exports, but fuel costs are not likely to outweigh the US inherent advantages any time soon.
The big savings to come will be where fuel costs are a substantial portion of the activity AND where they can be substantially reduced, namely commuting. Prius type vehicles combined with four-person car pools would cut commuting fuel consumption around 90%, with additional savings from reduced stop and go and less road building. This change, plus more work from home, will come long before 'the end of suburbia.'
Even now most airlines operate on the edge of covering their costs. Why? Because of the enormous fixed costs that must be covered by large volume of travel (airport time slots, planes amortisation and maintainance etc.). In 2004 for the US carriers fuel costs were 15% of the operating costs (at 45$ per barrel). At 90$ per barrel they'd have to raise prices with 15% which is quite significant. They will lose flights, passengers etc., while facing the same fixed costs. Eventually they will have to rise prices again and again while scaling back or simply going out of business.
Put another way if you have the same plane for 100 passengers at 600$ per barel the price for fuel will be 1500 euro and the ticket will be 2000 euro. But the plane will be just 20% full so the ticket will have to be 10000 euro to cover costs. If alternatevly, they cut flights five-fold the price of fuel will be again 1500euro and the ticket will be 4000euro (because of the 5 times higher fixed costs). So they'd have to cut flights again and again...
It is the large middle and low class price-sensitive segment that keeps air companies afloat. If it is gone - so is the air travel. If price gets in the range of 200$ per barrel just forget about air travel.
One should also note that if there's no enough demand for airport slots, the price of airport slots will probably go down also. And airports can also adapt to smaller traffic and lower their costs.
In every business the way down is much more painful than the way up; there are investmenst to be payed-off (I think I read that an airplane on average pays off for 20 years), jobs that are not so easy to be cut etc. The industry will scale back, yes - but will probably have to be much faster than we think and to an extent that flight will become hardly affordable.
Because of the relative time that most people spend working vs. the time that they spend consuming, I'd imagine that we'd all be better off putting more power in the hands of the workers. However, most people in the haste to get both tend to orrient toward's wanting consumer power. Possibly they don't realize the spreading effect of poor work/wage conditions.
We did see a brief, three-year period at the end of the seventies when world oil production shrank. Air travel shrank a bit, but hardly collapsed. (Not just the airlines were in trouble - FOrd and GM nearly went under. For a view of the future, look at the decade from 1972. In my view, we are now about where we were in 1977, with actual oil output contraction just ahead.)
Very high oil prices were mentioned in the above discussion. We are already moving (slowly) towards European efficiency because gasoline prices are climbing to where they were in Europe over the last couple of decades. I think $200/barrel is a more than sufficient goad to reduce world consumption to projected world output. This price, while greater than at any point in the past adjusted for inflation, is not so high as to bring business air travel costs to where they were just a few years ago, and certainly not as high as they were in 1975 for all passengers when adjusted for inflation. Indeed, competition from low cost airlines for business travelers has been far more damaging to the major carriers than higher fuel costs.
We might expect less auto travel, particularly commuting, which can be adjusted by car pooling, Prius vehicles, etc, as well as some less air travel, particularly by families with kids. Couples and business air travel will probably not be much changed for a long time. Air travel may decline, but probably no more than other forms of travel. Airlines will go under, as they have since the dawn of aviation, but will be replaced by those with lower costs. Since 1998 oil is up 6x, but air travel prices are so far unchanged, and air travel itself is up. Three cheers for the hidden hand of capitalism, hard at work bringing all of us more goods at lower costs!
Incidentally, a vision that planes will fly progressively less full, forcing airlines to raise prices to unbearable levels, bears no resemblance to what is happening now. When has anybody flown in an empty plane recently? The increasingly desperate majors have become quite adept at sacking redundant workers and grounding planes as they lose market share. Meanwhile, low cost carriers are quick to expand into the slots vacated.
But there is another thing that can make air travel uncompetitive while energy scarcity kicks in, and it is the efficiency improvement potential.
The potential of improvements in efficiency of motor vehicles is at least 300% relative to now, maybe more. If rail transport takes over efficiency can go up to 1000% compared to air travel. At the same time airplane efficiency has been so far tweaked out almost completely. And with downsizing of the industry efficiency actually drops. Small companies/planes have smaller fixed costs but they spend more for fuel per passenger.
The reason why people are taking planes versus cars/rail is the travel time. If air companies go along the way of slowing down planes at some point it will become preferable to take a car/rail than plane.
P.S. This year particularly air companies did raise their fuel surcharges. I don't have statistics but the same ticket for a flight to Europe costed me about 10% more than in 2004. Delta and United filed for bancrupcy, indicating that higher fuel prices from recent years might have been eating profits rather then being reflected in price.
Flying is a relatively effective means of transport so it will not be the first one to stop. But it will decrease, may be back there, where it was in the '50s or '60s.
The world had global trade already in the 16th century. Sailing ships will do if necessary. We should expect the trade volumes to go down, but not to cease altogether. Overly dramatic, unrealistic scenarios will not help. Remember, you all had a peak oil experience in 2000-2002. Anybody noticed a petrocollapse? Yes, the real one will probably be more visible and the supply drop may be more discernible, but the oil will not end suddenly and life change overnight.
What ends up happening then, is that all of the carriers who run trips to the smaller air ports have to either cut the freqency down severly, or end up just cancelling the route (if a plane only comes in to Madison, WI once every three weeks, most people will say ef it, I'll drive to Chicago and take a plane from there). And we end up with only the highest traveled routes being supported. The simple fact of having to drive hours or a day+ to get to the nearest serviced air port might further cut down into the airlines passenger count, which makes fewer flights possible.
Eventually, costs per ticket create enough demand destruction that the airlines declare it's just not worth operating anymore. And then that's the end of air travel. There will still be privately (corporate or personal) owned planes, and military planes in the sky. But no commercial planes.
Of course, with many (most?) airlines operating at a loss, and the governments continually willing to bale them out, we're not on that route yet. But if the government eventually regulates (re-regulates?) that every commercial flight must at least cover costs or else the air line is inelligible for bankruptcy protection or a bail out, well that will be the death blow to the airlines and it will all be just a matter of time. But then again, this is all just a guess, but it seems feasible in my mind.
Too much jobs are dependant on it not only in the carrier sector but in the tourism, sales etc. Its like to decide to dismantle the highway system because it costs too much to support.
On a little more philosophical note... If somewhere in the future americans lose the ability to travel, everyone will become stuck in this uniform and boring suburbs and will have the time to think a little on how we got there. No government likes people who think, especially in bad times.
As petroleum becomes more and more scarce and as the remaining sources of petroleum become more and more expensive to tap or process (tar sands), the price of petroleum relative to other useful things (housing, clothing) will soar. Meanwhile, the economy will suffer and go through cycles of ever worse recession/depression.
In this context, not only will governments be unable to subsidize air travel, they will be forced to give up highway maintenance as well. I hope that they will devote their limited resources to maintaining the food supply and to developing an alternative energy infrastructure that will make it possible for our present population to survive at a much lower level of energy consumption. I fear that they will instead devote their limited resources to warfare.
As for the warfare... I feel (or hope) that after Iraq the neocons are seeing the dead end this course will lead us. In a way US is the most vulnerable country in the world and if aggressive policy escalates the world has the choice of isolating it. Without imported oil, without an ever expanding cheap credit the country would collapse in a matter of months.