72 comments on Midweek Open Thread
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
72 comments on Midweek Open Thread
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Unique Times -- and the Future
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- The Bullroarer - Friday 27th November 2009
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“Of all races in an advanced stage of civilization, the American is the least accessible to long views… Always and everywhere in a hurry to get rich, he does not give a thought to remote consequences; he sees only present advantages… He does not remember, he does not feel, he lives in a materialist dream.”
—Moiseide Ostrogorski (1902, 302-303)
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
I'd draw a distinction between "motives" and "ulterior motives" intended to decieve or mislead. Both types of motives occur.
As a quick segmentation analysis, we could group commentators on oil issues roughly into political groups, corporate groups, and intellectual groups. The categories are not mutually exclusive. Other groupings do, of couse, make sense.
Political bodies include the IEA, EIA, USGS, and OPEC. They often have to support a homogenized point of view that is politically expedient. Many inside the groups may not really believe what they say. Consider the outrageously high USGS estimates, but the fact that they also publicize Les Magoon's peak oil viewpoint. I feel a lot of these groups are either disingenuous or have clear ulterior motives.
Corporate groups are the oil companies and other associated producers and users. A very few choose to speak openly (Chevron's "Will you join us" campaign). Some speak in code (Exxon Mobil's graph showing non-OPEC supply flat within the decade). Most don't speak, for good reason. Saying that your industry has no long-term future in its current form is bad for stock prices, and could even lead to lawsuits. I think these corporates will tell the truth when they believe it's good for business, and be discreet and quiet when they think the truth causes more trouble than it is worth. I don't think there is much outright lying here, perhaps because of liability issues as much as anything else.
Intellectual groups are those people studying the issue from a more outside perspective. I suspect most of these people are sincere and motivated by the truth as they see it. There are diverse opinions in this group: I'd put the Lynch & Yergin cornucopian / economic camp in this groups; as well as Hubbertarians/ depletionists like Deffeyes, Campbell, Simmons; environment policy people like Heinberg; social critics like Kunstler; and the more extreme post-industrial and dieoff groups. Some have clear agendas, such as pushing environmental or climate change policies, or debunking peak oil. But that doesn't mean they are lying--it's how they see the truth.
Dave said in an earlier post that peak oil is not a matter of belief, but I disagree with that. I am a fervent peak oil believer, but I can't (yet) prove my belief to a smart skeptic. The data is simply too bad, too incomplete, too full of holes. Ultimately, we don't know people's motives, but we can judge their words and actions. I'd assume sincerity, even from those I vehemently disagree with, unless we have clear evidence to the contrary.
If Peak Oil requires belief, then I want no part of it.
I "accept" it pretty firmly; I don't believe in it.
Belief is something you accept either in spite of or in the absence of evidence.
Belief requires faith, an evolutionarily designed mental error, I believe... Oops.
See? There's the colloquial sense, "Well, I believe what you're saying is not true," meaning "I think," and the psychological sense: "I believe because I believe."
This guy is so much more articulate about it:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/beliefs.htm
I have no problem accepting peak oil as a near-term reality. But I also know the data to date only partially supports that, and it is far from irrefutable. We in the peak oil community are assembling scraps of information, and putting it together in a qualitative, value-laden way that reflects our outlook. I happen to agree with most of it it. But don't think that this is rational, unbiased inquiry. We're partisans, and we are constructing our world view to fit our partisan leanings.
You probably meant "we are accepting Peak Oil in the 2005-2010 timeframe despite not knowing what the OPEC reserves really are".
You're saying exactly what I'm saying, in a sense.
"Belief" is irrefutable; peak oil, on the other hand, being subject to crappy data, is provisional, changing, irritatingly difficult to pin down.
It's that word, "belief," getting thrown around a lot that I don't like. See the crappy blob "Debunking Peak Oil," and you'll see what I mean. It's the idea of peak oil being a belief system that critics are seizing upon.
Again: peak oil does not require faith, which is what belief is all about.
When I encounter cornucopians, I tend to think of these as people with data sets less complete than my own. Their extrapolations are valid and have been valid historically yet they are lacking the additional data that transforms the expectation of continued oil availability into oil depletion.
The problem that occurs in human beings is that many, perhaps most, of us strive to not change beliefs even when the data set is expanded to include new data (or correct erroneous old data) that yields a different conclusion.
If you dig into any statement you can find underlying assumptions which ar emore a less a matter of belief. Some of the assumptions are "widely accepted" and you can bet pretty much on them but some are indeed a matter of belief.
For Peak Oil we generally assume that oil is a finite non-renewable resource, though nobody can be absolutely sure on that. Another assumption is that the world has been thoroughly searched already and nothing substantial is left to be found. Well we have the evidence for that but nobody knows for sure, right? We simply extrapolate or deduce in uncharted territories and these deductions are potentially flawed. That's why it is better to say "I think" or "I believe" than "I know".
do other countries not peak?
belief makes little difference to the time of when peak takes place. what does the smart sceptic say?
isnt it a question of believing WHEN oil is going to peak?
so some people think 80 years time and because they will be dead they dont care, so people with kids care more?
the people who "believe" it will happen after they die still "believe" (apart from the abiotic amongst us)
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-27-2005/0004197851& ;EDATE=
here is a nice story about peak silver
"In free markets with free prices, supplies are rationed not by limits, but
rather, by higher prices. The SUA, who is advocating a type of limit for
investors, would rather not see higher prices. Today, it appears as if the
SUA is more concerned with keeping silver available to its members than
keeping silver prices low, since they can no longer continue to do both. The
SUA is endorsing the bullish story for silver, in an attempt to keep silver
available to users, and away from highly capitalized investors who may want to
buy silver through a silver ETF.
What are the bullish fundamentals for silver? According to the Silver
Institute (silverinstitute.org) and CPM Group (cpmgroup.com), each year about
600 million ounces of silver are mined, while about 870 million ounces of
silver are consumed by industry, jewelry, and photography. The difference is
largely met by recycling and investor selling. In 2004 however, investor
selling ended as about 40 million ounces of silver was purchased by investors
throughout the year, which drove silver prices up from a low of $4.15 to a
high of $8.40/oz."
if i dont believe silver has peaked will that mean there is more silver for me?