<A Touch of Stagflation? The Oil Drum We're In Deep Water>

101 comments on In a shortage, businesses lose gas before homes

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AngryChimp on October 7, 2005 - 12:31am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

But what are the labor laws in China? Can you tell me? Does China allow what we in the West would consider children (<16) to work?

Great argument.  Ya there are countries where it is legal to sleep with 12 year old children too.  Does that mean its ok in your book?  Should you do it because that opportunity is available??  "Well the law says I can work a 14 year old child 40+ hours a week for 2$US an hour".  Then it's OK?  Why not open "Your major facility" in the US??  It's much cheaper i.e. PROFITABLE to pay people that eat a bowl of rice a day and peddle a bike to work.  You are part of the problem...

==AC

BTW

I think you missed the point about the CORPORATE OWNED media outlets....

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Mad Oilman on October 7, 2005 - 12:49am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think we're 'two ships passing in the night' communication wise here.

Nice sleight of hand there. I have a factory in a foreign country so of course we all sleep with 12 year olds. Come on. Is that the best you have? If so, it's sad.

We have major facilities in the US. It costs us a lot of money to keep these facilities open. But our quality control is phenomenal. And we have yet to recreate that overseas (yes, we are trying).

The China facility is a joint venture. And it is paying off handsomely for both parties. Unfortunately child labor doesn't quite meet our standards. It is the same with a large chunk of Chinese labor. Yes there is a lot of it. A lot of it skilled, no. And that's what I need.

Ah, the bowl of rice argument. See that one a lot. Ok Mr. AC (easier to type). If the prevailing wage in timbuktustan is $1 a day and Mr. Evil corporate guy comes in and pays $5 a day, tell me how that is wrong. Please.

At our facilities in Africa, there are near riots when someone is either fired or a new position becomes available. Why? We pay way above standard wages. Y'all anti-corporatists have forced us into it. It causes huge problems in those countries.

Whoever works for us is considered rich (seriously). And it is true.

As an analogy, median (family) income in the US is roughly $40K. Now imagine Mr. Evil capitalist comes to the US and opens a factory. And he is paying $200k for basic labor. What would happen in this country if that happened? Gold rush? Damn straight. That is the reality of the global marketplace.

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AngryChimp on October 7, 2005 - 1:07am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
"Nice sleight of hand there. I have a factory in a foreign country so of course we all sleep with 12 year olds."

Touché .  You know that wasn't the crux of my argument.

"The China facility is a joint venture. And it is paying off handsomely for both parties. Unfortunately child labor doesn't quite meet our standards. It is the same with a large chunk of Chinese labor."

You are you kidding when you say "Unfortunately", right?

"Ah, the bowl of rice argument. See that one a lot. Ok Mr. AC (easier to type). If the prevailing wage in timbuktustan is $1 a day and Mr. Evil corporate guy comes in and pays $5 a day, tell me how that is wrong. Please."

No I guess it's great for the poverty stricken worker in timbuktustan.  But what does that mean for the US?  What is to become of the US when all the manufacturing and production jobs or shipped away?   It's not you MO, it's the system.  The US is going to be timbuktustan soon enough the way we are being dismantled.  If there is profit to be made after the US becomes a "timbuktustan", GREAT.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE US??

I'm sorry I stirred up TOD.  I'll cease and desist..

==AC

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Mad Oilman on October 7, 2005 - 1:20am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
What does it mean to the US? That's a damn good question. I'm involved in a global market for my machinery. I constantly crush my low priced foreign competitors with my higher priced equipment. Why? Quality. We actually provide what we sold. Our world competitors can say they can build something. And say they can do it cheaper than I can. They can do it cheaper than I can, but they cannot do it right. It only takes one major screw up for my competition to be blacklisted for years at a time. We're talking oil and gas production projects here. You fail to deliver; you set a three-year production plan back 6 months because you failed to deliver? Them's some big friggin' dollars lost. Let's use Shah Deniz as an example. A major BP project in the Caspian. Initial (predrilled) production set at 250-500,000 barrels a day. At $60 a barrel.

And my competitors set the project back 6 months because they were in under the heads? You're getting in to the hundreds of millions of dollars lost. Over a million dollars worth of equipment.

That's why I will always have a base of US manufacturing. Despite the efforts of the EPA (that's a story for another day)

 

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Descolada on October 7, 2005 - 2:58am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I think there's a litmus test here.

I'm going to assume you have kids.  I don't have any basis for that assumption, it just feels right.  

Here's the litmus test: Would you allow your child to work in your factory?  

No?

Then screw you.

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Mad Oilman on October 7, 2005 - 9:40am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Such language! Screw Me!

Skilled labor Descolada. Not a lot of 12 year old machinists out there. Or foundry workers. Or engineers. Jeez.

Litmus test? I've worked since I was 10. Since I did it by choice, I guess I exploited myself for child labor. And my kids will work. Best way to learn about the real world is to enter it.

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coffee17 on October 7, 2005 - 10:33am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Descalada, don't you think that was at least a bit too harsh?

Do you have children? Do you want them to grow up into irrational hot heads? No? Then Screw You! </joke>

In the posts leading up to this (and thus you should have read them before posting this (I won't use posts elsewhere in different threads, as I can't claim that you have to have read all comments in all stories before you're allowed to comment, but ettiquete demands that you have read the posts in the history of the conversation you are jumping into)), madoilman has said that he hires skilled labor, and it sounds like he pays above average wages (and exacts above average prices for the great product). It sounds in no way like he's looking to make a horrible work/slave environment.

Even more to the point, you don't even seem to give him any credit, there's no, "If not, then..." it's just that you assume that he wouldn't, and then tell him to screw himself. He's been polite in trying to continue this part of the thread while he could have just walked away.

<fighting_words> Last time I looked, this wasn't slashdot. </fighting_words>

Madoilman, you have my apologies for the treatment you're received for trying to contribute here.

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Mad Oilman on October 7, 2005 - 6:18pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Thanks Coffee17.

I'm a big boy. And they are only words. From someone anonymous at that. My email address is part of my profile. As well as a boring and rarley posted to website. I don't have anything to hide.

And my views will necessarily clash with some members of this forum. It's to be expected on a topic that elicits such, er, passions.

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coffee17 on October 7, 2005 - 10:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I assumed that you could handle your own from your non-passionate responses. However, a community shapes itself, and if no one speaks against hot headedness it tends to grow (first they came for the jews and thoughts along that line). Additionally, you have a unique perspective (at least so far ;) which I think would be useful.
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Descolada on October 7, 2005 - 2:59am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Let me clarify:  Your adult child.
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Magnus Redin on October 7, 2005 - 3:46am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
> No I guess it's great for the poverty stricken worker in timbuktustan.  But what does that mean for the US?  What is to become of the US when all the manufacturing and production jobs or shipped away?  

From a general moral standpoint it is reasonable to assume that one human life is worth the same regardless if it is a Timbuktistani or an American.

So if runaway global capitalism makes a lot of Timbuktistani happier and able to live longer lives and fewer Americans unhappier and more short lived the world do overall become a better place.

But people do not work that way, faily, close friends, distant friends, local community, country is more important then distant people. (I care more about close friends then distant people. )

I think globalism or whatever you call it are making the fortunes more evenly distributed around the world. Distributed is the wrong word since it is not a fixed ammount of production capacity etc. It grows and gives among other things the imminent peak oil threath and a toolbox of capacities that can be used to mitigate that problem or used to make it worse.

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101 comments on In a shortage, businesses lose gas before homes

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