<Open Thread The Oil Drum Understanding the oil patch>

31 comments on Julian Darley and The Relocalization Movement

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Drum Roll on November 19, 2005 - 3:16am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Dan U.,

Your post got me to thinking about the difficulties involved in reclaiming suburban sprawl for agricultural use in an attempt at relocalization in a post-peak world.

I live in a suburb which is experiencing rapid growth due to large amounts of available farm land surrounding the much-older town center.

One thing I cannot help but notice as I see each new subdivision, shopping center and office complex project is that the first thing the construction teams do is to strip away the ENTIRE layer of topsoil (until they hit clay) on the piece of land being developed.

How long does it take for fertile topsoil to re-generate? Will it be decades or centuries before the land is suitable for agricultural use again (assuming you remove the buildings and parking lots)? Or even longer?

I know little about the dynamics of soil formation and erosion - comments from those who do are welcomed.

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unplanner on November 19, 2005 - 5:17am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Yes there are ways to create fertile soil where there is none.  It does take time and a decent sized initial investment of human/animal/machine labor.

Simple composting and spreading is a start. Jevons adds to this with a fundementally different way to grow crops using double dug raised beds.  Check it out at http://www.growbiointensive.org/biointensive/GROW-BIOINTENSIVE.html .

Another option is to try Lion Kuntz EcoSyn method
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Ecosyn/IBS_Math.html .  Its harder to explain, but permits a more carnivorous diet than Jevons method.  

There are no doubt other methods out there as well.  All require an investment of time and resources to complete, which is why you don't see land returning to agriculture after development.  It IS possible.  It ISN'T easy.  It won't happen until the fossil fuel subsidy for agriculture is with drawn.  Only then will things change and people start ripping out blacktop and putting in farms.

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Dan Ur on November 19, 2005 - 5:47am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Have you ever double dug a raised bed?  Back breaking work!!  I have, It is time consuming and can work wonders over time,, I repeat over TIME.  

 I have pulled tons of rock out of the ground, ( mostly from a wooded area they planted houses on ), Back breaking work. Over time you can get enough to feed yourself and maybe a few others.

 I have worked soil that had laid fallow for a decade, very good soil, wonderful soil, rich full of life, But I worked hard to get my crops, same result feed me and few others at max.

 When we lose the OIL we will lose a lot of people, and have chaos for years,  If you happen to live in a protected area, sure you can grow for yourself and a few others.

 Have you done it, year on year, have you lived off the land?  Do you know where the wild berrys grow? The plants you can eat, while your crops are getting their first shoots up?  IF you think it will be easy!! Think 3 or more times harder than you are now!!

 Trust me!! LIFE off the land with only your hand labor is not easy!!

 Now Feed the rest of the world too, or teach them to live like you!  Most city kids don't even know what a turnip is?
 Will they know that Kale is good after the first frost, and that carrots really do need soft loamy soil and cool weather to grow big and sweet?

 Oh and name me four (4) plants that grow in most lawns that you can eat?
 

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copperweaver on November 19, 2005 - 6:17am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
clover, plantane, dandylions and grass??
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AlexC on November 19, 2005 - 5:02pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I agree Dan Ur, the challenge is a large one. But we are not talking the end of the oil when peak oil arrives, hence the large debate on depletion rates.

We could well have several decades of expensive oil to learn. This is when i think the grass roots movements will expand at a rapid rate largely bypassing the government, i also think one of the major factors will be where you live. I live in the UK and believe while it might be very tough for awhile, but i hope our government will do the right things if given the chance and enough public pressure once peak oil is more known. This could range from grants for urban gardens to TV programs on living sustainability, who knows.

To simply say "When we lose the OIL we will lose a lot of people, and have chaos for years" is maybe one way things could go, but i would argue that is an unlikely and extreme outcome.

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copperweaver on November 19, 2005 - 5:56pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I just don't see the world economy will ajusting to an increase in oil price and shortage of supply.  At least not in  the United States.  I think when folks in this county are nolonger able to live the glutonous lifestyle we have become addicted to there will be extreme social chaos.  Remember guns are very available in the US and lots of people have them. We also have to contend with global climate change etc...  Look at how we handled the crisis in New Orleans.  Thin Food production and distribution are so heavily dependent on cheep fossil fuels.  I see most of the remaining oil being horded and used by millitaries to secure and protect  what is available regionally.  I wish I were more of an  optimist, but we are talking about to human beings here... and there are no easy solutions.  Time will tell............
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LevinK on November 21, 2005 - 5:30pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
<quote>..At least not in  the United States...</quote>

Yeah sometimes I tend to think to Peak Oil as "Peak USA".
We are the only country in the world that has planned its entire life around plentiful fossil fuels. Most other countries have or at least work hard on their plan "B" - in Germany or France you can very easily live without a car of your own; governments stimulate renewables and nuclear energy (soon to come back in Germany) and people generally like to live closer to each other. And maybe more importantly - people has not forgotten where they came from. It is the rich history of wars, crisises and suffering that made people learn that sticking together is the only chance for long-term survival.

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Southsider1 on November 22, 2005 - 4:18am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Well, isn't it ironic that Henry Ford, the man who created the modern automobile industry, is also credited with the assertion that "history is bunk": a very American belief. It would appear that the United States is about to have its own nasty encounter with History.
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LevinK on November 22, 2005 - 12:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Well this is pretty arrogantic thought. When you look at the past you see times and times in which people make the same mistakes. What makes us so special? We would be special indeed if we could identify these patterns and avoid them, but denying the existence of history obviously leads in the opposite way.
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Donal on November 22, 2005 - 1:47pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
"History is more or less bunk. It's tradition. We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's damn is the history we made today."
Henry Ford, Interview in Chicago Tribune, May 25th, 1916

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24950.html

I wonder what the question was?

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unplanner on November 21, 2005 - 1:56am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Well, I never did say it would be easy.  
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Dan Ur on November 19, 2005 - 5:30am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I live is the region of Alabama where "Red Clay" is about 5 to 10 inches below ground.  The top soil, is just that layer of old dead leaves and grasses, Plus all the wroms and bugs that make the layer fertile, for more plants to grow.  In some areas of the west before we started farming it, the Top Soil was 2 feet thick!   Very few family farms, or any farms have that thick a layer of top soil left.  Farming by its nature kills top soil!!

 There have have been many papers, and reports, and books written about how TOP SOIL has gone "bye bye" in the world over the last few thousand years, since farming came into practice.

 From the land use prospective.  If it was former farm land and a House farm got built, or roads, or anything much more than just letting it go fallow, you will need a lot of effort to make it farmable again.  Even veggie gardens will take a lot of work.

 I have 3 decades of land use and study of lands and how to grow things on the land under my belt, Plus Construction Engineering and Landscape Architecture as a foundation for my information.

 In general if you convert farmland to anything other than fallow land ( this inclueds trees and just over growth over years or centuries)  You can ruin it for future farming without letting it go back to the natural way of things first.  This natural way of things takes decades to work its wonders.  DECADES!!  

 I see it happen, and I know the outcome,  We are cutting our veins open and saying "we don't care"!!  

 In reality Farming never was a "wise use" option for land anyway!  Living off the land means really letting the land give you its bounty without changing how we use the land!  Go Look at every culture that used the land by farming it, you see the land dying around them.  

 But we are stuck.  We farm, we fish, We need the land to make as much good food as it can, or else we die.  OIL Peak is going to hurt us really bad!!  FOOD WISE if nothing else.

I hate to see it this way, but the options aren't there!

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31 comments on Julian Darley and The Relocalization Movement

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