33 comments on Ignore Depletion At Your Peril
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33 comments on Ignore Depletion At Your Peril
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The overall sentiment of the presenting professors was that the public is "panic" driven and the concern over depletion is somewhat overblown.
Prof. Graham started the lecture with a quick paced survey on how oil is formed, discovered and extracted; focusing on the idea that there are still many areas of the planet (Antartica) that have never been explored and which could hold vast reserves.
Two more professors, Nur and Gorelick played good cop/ bad cop regarding Hubbert's predictions for world wide oil shortage.
Prof. Amos Nur warned that he believes the world is on the brink of war due to perhaps-overblown "panic" over oil. He pointed out that there is still an unsettled debate between demand-oriented economists on one side and resource-availability oriented geologists on the other as to whether the world is truly running out of oil. The big problem, as Nur presented it, is the fact that China and India want to move up a graphed line he presented as representing "standard of living" with the USA at the top in terms of per capita income and per capita oil consumption (26 barrels per year per person). If China and India move straight up, global oil production will have to triple (up 200%). That was a shocking number. [While not promising it, the geology dept. indicated they may later post Nur's slides on their web site in the future.]
Prof. Steven Gorelick attacked the Hubbert model on a number of fronts. His weakest attack (IMHO) was arguing that just because Hubbert was right for US lower 48 does not mean Hubbert will be correct in predicting global production and consumption. His strongest attack (again IMHO) was arguing that the world is getting more efficient at using oil and will continue to improve efficiency at a sufficiently rapid pace such that oil depletion will become a don't care by the time (he says it's always 40 years into the future) the oil starts to run out. As to Nur's "standard of living" graph, Goelick argued that China and India will not move straight up that line but will instead find a more efficient line to climb up so that they can reach same standard of living without consuming as much oil per capita.
Most surprising was how many members of the public came to the lecture. It was standing room only in a big lecture auditorium. I'd say there were easily 500 people there if not more. I guess Silicon Valley folk are already well atuned to the Peak Oil problem.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/12/15/MNGSQABVST1.DTL
http://www.livescience.com/environment/end_oil_041214.html
http://archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/marxism/2004w50/msg00225.htm
http://water.stanford.edu/nur/AGU2004_Amos_files/slide0015_image003.gif
The 1999 Clinton plan for war according to Nur:
http://water.stanford.edu/nur/AGU2004_Amos_files/slide0010_image017.jpg
I am merely giving my impressions of their talk, I am not speaking on their behalf. I think the basic message was, Yes there is a problem, but we should not "panic" and start a war where we (China versus USA) start killing each other over the oil. There are are a lot of other carbon sources out there.
We also need to remember we're not talking about running out, but reaching peak production with subsequent decline. I think it's good to present all sides of any debate, but I am concerned that the signals are pointing increasingly to an imminent problem, and people need to be aware of this.
I appreciate your time and effort in documenting the discussion. I agree that having this discussion in public is a big step toward increasing awareness and having people doing their own investigations into the matter. I certainly agree with the concern that we don't go to war over oil - we need to pull together if we are to achieve any real answers.
For TOD readers in the Bay Area, the next Stanford lecture is scheduled for Feb. 21, 2006 and entitled Carbon, Climate & Consequences
the first lecture was given at the Arrillaga Alumni Center and was open to the public
Congratulations on getting your report published by Energy Bulletin.
It's tough to accurately report on 2 hours of fast paced lecturing as well as on reactions by the audience. It would be most interesting if there were some psychology majors in the audience and if they could interview fellow students on how the argumentative styles of Nur and Gorelick swayed them one way or the other.
Certainly, Gorelick was the more youthfully charasmatic and energetic of the two professors. But then again, Mother Nature is not moved by debate style.
I noticed that someone was filming the whole thing from the back of the room. Do you know if that film is going to be aired at a later date?
Good job.
I didn't know there was another group on the Peninsula discussing peak
oil.
I live close to Palo alto and would like to hear more about your gatherings.
My wife and I are currently attending monthly Post Carbon group
meetings held in the Green Party office in South San Francisco. We
attended the Stanford Oil Depletion lecture and were unimpressed other
than with the number of attendees. There are a few other local
residents that would probably be interested in what your group is
doing.
You and anyone else interested in PO are invited to the Post Carbon
Outpost meetings in South San Francisco. I hope you will consider
attending so that the two groups can exchange ideas on living in the
Bay Area and preparing for the expected PO problems. The next meeting
is December 16, at 212 Miller Ave. SSF 7-9PM. The SSF group is new and
its meetings are very informal also.
Tom Dickerman ( "Dickerman" <dickermn@earthlink.net> ) is the person
responsible for setting up the Post Carbon meeting in SSF.
Hope to hear from you.
- Arlen
The Hubbert/Deffeyes method was dead on right in predicting the North Sea Peak, at 52% of Qt. The North Sea P/Q intercept also accurately predicted the very steep decline rate. In contrast, the Lower 48 peaked at 48% of Qt, with a much less steep decline rate.
I got the feeling that the Stanford professors were merely throwing out to the audience some of the points and counterpoints that are out there, rather than revealing their true inner beliefs. The point was to educate the crowd on the controversies rather than to advocate a particular belief.
I'd add two other points that Nur made that I feel deserve emphasis to the public: To believe that oil production will eventually peak, Hubbert's method needs not be an accurate prediction. All that is required is an acceptance of the finite nature of the oil endowment, so attacks on Hubbert's method (as opposed to attacks on the biotic origin of oil) aren't truly attacks on the Peak Oil concept nor the economic and social consequences thereof. Moreover, with exponential growth in production on the upside of the curve (as we had seen prior to the '70's and in some periods since then), massive variations in URR result in only very modest changes in the year of the peak.
Gorelick's strongest point was indeed that India and China may not need such large per capita quantities of oil to raise their standards of living, but this point was buried deep in a staggering number of graphs and statistics that I feel are intended to deceive. One example: he claimed the US could cut its current import of oil from the middle east by 50% by replacing 14% of its light vehicle fleet with hybrid cars. He presented the 14% figure as though it were small; poking around on the web I find that's around 28 million vehicles; in the last year on the order of 0.2 million hybrids were sold, a difference of two orders of magnitude. Another example: he pointed out that in the early seventies, global production departed from Hubbert's prediction, but failed to explain that this was a result of political and not geological impositions. Many of his other graphs were purely historical, with no concession to the change in circumstances geology is proven on a field-by-field basis to impose. He even went as far as to claim that the US voluntarily decreased its production in 1970; that the lower-48 peak was economically and not geologically imposed. I must keep an open mind; just because I've never seen that hypothesis expressed before doesn't mean it couldn't be true. I would welcome any hard evidence either way that the lower-48 peak was geologically mandated, or that it was undertaken voluntary based on the economics of the rapidly globalizing nature of the oil market at the time.
Overall, I also got the sense that Gorelick didn't really believe everything he was stating. He's a smart man and acknowledged the finite nature of oil, so he can't possibly believe his own claim that only demand has ever and will ever govern the price of oil, nor that Malthus has been conclusively proven wrong (if Malthus's forecast is conclusively proven, it can only be proven right; otherwise we always have the future in which to produce that conclusive proof). Nur's emphasis, on the other hand, on Hubbert's ideas around the social implications of oil peak and the disconnect between financial and energy-resource economies, led me to believe he does believe what he's saying and feels that the way he's said it his best attempt at publicizing humanity's best options for enduring the coming changes.
We do have some degree of political "self-embargo" going, according to Simmons' term, where we have put some areas off limits in California, Florida, Alaska, etc, but I've never seen data to pursuade me that those areas have enough oil to change the basic equation.
If Gorelick doesn't really believe what he's saying, then he's doing a major injustice misleading people into apathy when we have a real problem to deal with.
Good to see that other TOD readers were in attendance.
Each presentation was densely packed with information. It will not be possible to post everything here.
One of the "real problems" we need to deal with are all the various counter-arguments being thrown at the Peak Oil wall in hopes that a few stick to the wall.
I think Gorelick was doing that by using all sorts of attacks: 1)Hubbert was wrong, 2)Hubbert was lucky with a hand drawn guess, 3)Malthus was wrong, 4)Market prices do not support PO contention, ... etc. etc.
One argument that I found appealing was the analogy to copper and the early expectations by telephone companies that the world would run out of copper. But, as Gorelick pointed out, fiber optic technology emerged as an unexpected dark horse; and now we have wireless communications which makes copper even more obsolete.
One can only hope that some new, dark horse technology will emerge from the back of the pack to make oil obsolete in a same kind of way. Gorelick was arguing that improved "efficiencies" in how we achieve end results can be such a surprise horse that comes from behind and overtakes oil depletion.
Therefore we should hope the next dark horse does not have to be extracted from the Earth - or it too will run out in time.
If we get to the point where we can make inexpensive wires out of Buckytubes, there'll be a lot of scrap aluminum on the market. The measured conductivity of Buckytubes is up to 10x as good as copper, and their tensile strength is far greater than any metal.
The atmosphere is a major reservoir of carbon, and I don't see us needing enough wires to seriously deplete it.
Anyway, I wrote a more scathing review that should be published on the energy bulletin soon. In fact one of hte administrators of the energybulletin was there with me.
I sense your anger and look forward to your scathe. But consider this: Those gray-haired professors up on stage have invested their entire lives into the studies of earth science (I'm a gray hair too --if you want to call what's left, hair). If the oil era is truly over, then that big Geology Dept. they are building up at Stanford is also partly over. They have a vested interest in reading the tea leaves to say oil is not over; and to say that geologists will come in to save the day for us.
In fact, many segments of our society have vested interests in saying that the oil age is not over. I think that is why you see so many opponents to the concept of Peak Oil.
Truth is that neither of the extermist camps (Savinar versus Yergin say) actually knows how much extractable reserve remains down underground/ undersea. So no one knows what is really going on. They interpret the tea leaves to their subjective likings.