<Another book for the shelf The Oil Drum Developing a "comprehensive and coherent" energy policy>

81 comments on Tuesday Open Thread

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GJ on December 13, 2005 - 11:05am Permalink | Subthread | Comments top
A place for warmth - a corn stove:

Americans burning corn to cut heating costs

And why not.

Price of corn:

Price of natural gas:

There's a run on the stoves, however, because the cost savings over wood and gas are so great.

Sales of corn-burning stoves have tripled this year and distributors across the country have been sold out for weeks.

From this article:

"We are actually taking deposits for products for next fall - it's all you can do," said Ed Hiscox, owner of furnace retailer Hiscox Sales and Service in Valparaiso, Indiana, in the middle of the US corn belt.

"We have customers from very high-end homes to people who are not really in any financial condition at all. It doesn't seem to make a difference - everyone has problems with gas prices."

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Nate Hagens on December 13, 2005 - 11:21am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
There needs to be a high-level top-down analysis on the trade-offs between food, energy, and the environment, including but not limited to EROI analysis.

Ill look into the numbers but if even 1/3 of the people switched from nat gas to corn we would run out of farmland. This is another example (ethanol, solar panels, being 2 others) that make sense at the margin for certain companies and certain individuals but not the planet as a whole.

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exsuburbanite on December 13, 2005 - 11:27am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top

We need to stop looking to corn/soy for biomass.  The only reason they are used is because they are heavily subsidized/lobbied for.  There are far better crops for biomass, and no reason that farmers who grow corn/soy now couldn't grow them (and still produce enough food for everyone).

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fallout on December 13, 2005 - 11:39am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I'm glad I am not the only one deeply concerned over the prospect of actually burning foodstocks for energy, except perhaps temporarily to take advantage of an economic abnormality.
Historically speaking (i.e 8000 b.c. to recently), food has been harder for man to obtain than energy sources.
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Donal on December 13, 2005 - 11:31am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Our stove dealer came to fix a stuck rod on the stove.  My wife told him that I wanted to mix in half corn with our wood pellets (due to the shortage of wood pellets).  He advised against it, saying we'd have more ash in the cleanout and mice eating the corn in the basement.

I wonder what he tells his corn stove customers?

We're up to Burn Level 2 of 5, burning about a 40lb bag a day, sometimes slightly more.  I'm glad we got the Prescott because it holds almost two bags of pellets in the hopper.  My wife wanted the cast-iron Hastings, which is attractive but terribly heavy and holds only one bag:
http://www.eventempinc.com/stcroix/stoves/stoves.html

Nothing bad happens to the stove if the pellets run out, but you will wake up to a cold house.

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GreyZone on December 13, 2005 - 11:58am Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
40 pounds per day? I guess we'll cut down the last tree just like the Easter Islanders eventually too.

Abandoning all this "modern" housing and returning to heavily self-insulating structures like cordwood, strawbale, or earth sheltered is looking more and more sane by the day now.

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fallout on December 13, 2005 - 12:01pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Exactly what I was thinking. At that rate, you'll burn a ton of pelletized wood in under 2 months.
I do suppose it depends on where you live, though. If that is Minnesota, it is not too bad. If it is Virginia, there is a serious trouble.
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Donal on December 13, 2005 - 12:12pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
We live in Central PA.  Based on last year's bills, I figure I'd be paying about $10 per day for NG right now, but I'm only paying $3 or $4 for pellets.  We had been getting two days out of a bag until a few weeks ago.  

We're heating a 950 SF one-story frame house.  I insulated most of it last year, but I still have to insulate the basement walls.  We have single pane wood windows and aluminum storm windows, which I'd also like to replace.

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Donal on December 13, 2005 - 12:26pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
At the moment, pellets are made from sawdust found in woodworking shops, so they aren't increasing the use of trees.  We were thinking about putting up a straw bale/yert on some high ground near here, but it is hard to say if we'll get to it.
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copperweaver on December 13, 2005 - 1:39pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Straw-bales homes are wonderful. Defanatly worth doing. A friend that I grew up with has built at least six of them in Athens, Ohio.  I helped him build one of them.

They have an R factor between 35 and 50.  My favorite aspect of straw-bale construction are the deep window sills and the fact that you can sculpt the walls and stucco.  

The home that I helped build was a two story poplar stick frame with bale walls. The exterior was finished by spraying on portland stucco, and we did the interior by hand.   We also installed a radiant heat floor.  Very cozy house.

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Essex Land Rover Man on December 13, 2005 - 2:04pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
This was on Grand Designs a couple of years ago. Great program and I think a rather nice looking house. The guy lived under a tarp cover for many years before being given permission to build a straw house.

http://www.permaculture.co.uk/info/Grand_Designs.html

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Magnus Redin on December 13, 2005 - 1:38pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Why abondon the old houses when you can add insulation?
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Atticman on December 13, 2005 - 10:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
There is a hobbit like old Hippie town north of Denton TX
A step back in time.Called WhiteHawk.All residences are ferroCement dome like shells dug into slopes,and covered mostly by soil and yard grass for roofs.A Ghost of crises past !
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odograph on December 13, 2005 - 2:55pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
These guys are interesting.  Apparently a government/private research project has helped build a stove more suitable to corn and coming soon ... switchgrass!

http://www.pelletstove.com/

They claim higher efficiency as well.  Not sure how good everybody's numbers are on such things, and how apples to apples things can be.

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Twilight on December 13, 2005 - 3:51pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
When researching wood stoves, I found manufacturer's BTU ratings to be almost completely random numbers.  Most modern wood stoves use the same basic design.  So if you can put in the same amount of wood, it's hard to see how the output could be much different.  I don't know if ratings for pellet or corn stoves are any more standardized.
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AngryChimp on December 13, 2005 - 4:32pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Some stoves use a catalyst or reburn chamber to achieve higher BTU output by reburning smoke and carbon...

==AC

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Twilight on December 13, 2005 - 8:37pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Yes, this is the technique I was referring to - most use some method of adding superheated air over the combustion area to ignite a secondary combustion.
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Donal on December 14, 2005 - 12:10pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Whoa, the wife says we're on Burn Level 3, burning up to two bags a day.  So we're spending $7 to $8 a day.  I find these pellets a much more tangible measure of fuel for heating than the invisible oil, gas or electricity that I grew up with.  

My wife grew up with coal heat.  Her dad and most of her male relatives were often laid off from Conrail, so she's used to lean times.  She's been very receptive to Peak Oil, and very practical about getting prepared for even leaner times.

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hhieslmair on December 13, 2005 - 12:56pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
I'm no expert in stoves, but all the stoves I've seen suck in air from the room (rather than air from the outside) and send it out the flue. That results in a negative room pressure and causes outside (cold air) to enter the house through air gaps and other leaks. It always seems that the room with the stove is warm and the rest of the house never heats up.

Are there any stoves which use the outside air for combustion? Does anyone know if this makes a big difference or not?

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Donal on December 13, 2005 - 1:08pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
With all models of my stove, there is an outside air port (3" diameter) on the back, but we haven't run the intake duct yet.  The stove backs up to a brick chimney, so there was just enough room for the exhaust to go straight through the wall.  Over Xmas break, I plan to run a duct into the wall, down through the plate and outside through the band board a good distance from the exhaust.

I think you're correct about the negative pressure; the rooms get warm, but the walls are cold.

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Twilight on December 13, 2005 - 1:13pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
Yes, most new stoves can be fitted with an outside air intake kit.  This is required for well sealed homes to prevent the flue from reversing direction when things like dryers kick on.  For my 175yr old house, this is not an issue.  On the other hand, the air intake of my wood stove when it is stopped down is maybe 2sq in (I'll have to measure it next time I clean it)   - it's not moving a lot of air.  

One other thing about really well sealed houses (which I suppose is not quite the same as well insulated) - I'm not very comfortable with being sealed in a house with all the chemicals released by modern building products, etc.  There are some rather nasty things in the air in a modern home.  A quandry!

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GJ on December 13, 2005 - 1:15pm Permalink | Subthread | Parent | Comments top
The stove is vented thru the wall, but doesn't need a chimney:

This article describes the pros and cons.

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81 comments on Tuesday Open Thread

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