101 comments on Friday Open Thread
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
101 comments on Friday Open Thread
Comments can no longer be added to this story.
| Show without comments | PDF version
Search The Oil Drum with Google
Support The Oil Drum
Recently on TOD:World
TOD:Campfire
TOD:Europe
- Peak Gold, Easier to Model than Peak Oil? - Part I
- Carbon Capture and Storage
- Oilwatch Monthly November 2009
TOD:Canada
- In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
- The Round-Up: October 24, 2008
- Compressed Air Energy Storage - How viable is it?
TOD:Australia/NZ
- International Energy Agency calls 'Peak' on OECD Oil Demand
- Australian Senate: Peak Oil motion defeated 31:6
- The Bullroarer - Friday 20th November 2009
TOD:Net Energy
Blogroll
Energy Sites
- The Coming Global Oil Crisis
- Die Off
- Dry Dipstick
- Energy Bulletin
- From the Wilderness
- Life After the Oil Crash
- Peak Oil Crisis
- Peak Oil News and Message Boards
- Powerswitch
- Rigzone
- Matthew Simmons
- Wolf at the Door
Environment & Sustainability Sites
- The Daily Green
- EcoGeek
- Eco Street
- Green Car Congress
- Green Options
- green.alltop.com
- Gristmill
- RealClimate
- Sustainablog
- Treehugger
- WorldChanging
Blogs
- Casaubon's Book
- Cleantech Blog
- Clusterf
k Nation (Jim Kunstler) - The Cost of Energy
- David Strahan
- Early Warning
- The Energy Blog
- European Tribune
- GraphOilology
- Health After Oil
- jeffvail.net
- Mobjectivist
- Peak Energy (Australia)
- Peak Energy (USA)
- R-Squared
- Resource Insights
Finance & Economics Blogs
- The Big Picture
- Calculated Risk
- The Crash Course
- Ecological Economics
- Econbrowser
- Environmental Economics
- Infectious Greed
- The Mess That Greenspan Made
- Mish's Global Economic Trend Analysis
Organizations
Peak Oil Primers
Beware email scams!
Beware email scams claiming to be from this site. We do not have any job openings. If anyone contacts you about a job at The Oil Drum, do not reply to them, and definitely do not give them any personal information or send them money. Read more here.
“Pessimism of the Intellect; Optimism of the Will.”
—Antonio Gramsci
User login
Contact
- Content: editors at theoildrum dot com
- Tech support: support at theoildrum dot com
Personnel
- Editors: Nate Hagens, Gail the Actuary, Prof. Goose
- DrumBeat Editor: Leanan
- Contributors: ace, Engineer-Poet, Heading Out, jeffvail, JoulesBurn, Sam Foucher, Robert Rapier
- TOD:Campfire: Glenn, Jason Bradford
- TOD:Europe: Chris Vernon, Euan Mearns, Francois Cellier, Jerome a Paris, Luís de Sousa, Rembrandt, Rune Likvern, Ugo Bardi
- TOD:Canada: benk, Libelle
- TOD:ANZ: Big Gav, Phil Hart, aeldric
- Emeritus: Stuart Staniford
- Technician: Super G
License
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 United States License.










GAIA Host Collective
Is there any possible way that supply can meet demand in North America ever again?
I have had feeling about this ever sense I started investigating LNG. Now after reading this weeks Wall Street article, my outlook even looks more grim. LNG now costs $2-3 above the Henry Hub....and the USA can't get enough to make a dent! How high must it get before we can import enough to even make it worthwhile? How much natural gas will be used to extract the harder to reach oil? Will exporting countries keep their LNG for future use? Is increasing LNG supplies a myth?
It appears to me peak oil will be a vicious downward spiral. The market will save us! Well the market has never had to deal with this. The market has never dealt with population decline and has always had another energy source to take advantage of. Capitalism is nothing but a pyramid scheme that only works when unlimited supply is available and more people are added to the bottom year after year. Both pillars of the capitalist model will start disappearing in a matter of years, whether this year(Japan? Europe?) or in 25 years, the pyramid will collapse before we even know what happened.
The market says LNG will "carry us to another source" "bridge the gap". What if LNG is a boondoggle that never pans out?
I think this the biggest question mark in our energy situation over the next 5 years.
I've described some Japanese techniques for conserving natural gas here.
It's really not a big deal. I know Americans who have reduced their NG consumption to 15% of what it once was with negligible effects on their lifestyle.
Seriously though, there are some very simple principles that govern heat conservation:
1. It's cheaper to heat a smaller volume than a larger volume. So just heat one room, or better still, part of one with dividers. Better still, wear warm clothing in the house. And of course thick blankets or even an electric blanket is good if you're old and don't generate as much heat as before. Central heating is terrible when avoidable. So is central air, but it's winter---off topic.
2. Heat used equals temperature times time. It's cheaper to heat just when needed. Turn heat down or off when not needed. Hot water should be heated on demand.
3. Heat rises. A ceiling fan can mix it up and bring some of it back down.
4. Heat convects, i.e. leaks where air leaks. Plug where it leaks. Use incense smoke to detect air currents. Don't overdo plugging in a really small space, however, until you overcome your oxygen addiction.
5. Heat is at the end of the energy chain, i.e. most other forms of energy degrade to heat. So: almost all of the energy from an electric heater turns into heat---there's no efficiency issue. So: incandescent bulbs are ok in a room you want to warm up---but otherwise they are a big waste.
6. Heat radiates. I'm not sure how much goes out the window. Properly colored drapes and that kind of thing might be important. Help.
I live in a condo with 69 units. We are just beginning the struggle around all these issues! This is the winter everyone will realize there is a BIG issue---when we get the bills.
In the long term, you are probably going to want to get really serious with insulation everywhere.
It sounds exactly what I have been looking for?
Rick
He also mentioned the falling resources in Indonesia.
Not pointed specifically at Indonesia but I wonder what the typical despot will choose, Big $$ from OECD in his pocket or food for his slaves/people?
In the larger picture I think there's still lots of gas out there but in the short run, Limited processing, Very limited Cargo Capacity and limited port locations (aka nimby). The few shipyards that build LNG shipping are booked up with orders for dedicated route ships.
Question I have is, with 100% gulf production recovery will we have enough gas next winter? In a more worse case what if we have another damaging hurricane?
If you add up all the countries that are planning on using LNG in the next few years, you wonder where the supply and/or investments-pipelines-ships-terminals will come from.
USA
Canada (for tar sands...yuk)
Mexico
Chile
Indonesia
China
New Zealand
Spain
Italy
England
Japan? (Not sure if they need more or not)
That is at least 10 countries that are building new terminals and/or expect an increase in gas to their country over the next few years.
And if any of this gas is used for electricity production, you can expect only a 30% Energy Return.
Just doesn't make sense to me. Somebody is going to get screwed in this whole deal. And most likely rate-payers.
Flavius Aetius
(to other posts)
2 There will not be a US ng shortage for several years. The hidden hand is already booting the chemical industry, or that bit that makes feedstocks from ng, overseas to where ng is cheaper, taking jobs and tax base with them. High prices are also persuading most, certainly including the poor but also much of the middle class, to reduce consumption. Current stocks in storage do not justify today's high prices, and traders doing the math are accordingly taking prices down. However, in 2015, when US ng production may fall off a cliff, we will hopefully have elbowed our way to the front for ng imports (we expect and deserve the lion's share), or have built sufficient coal (ugh) or nuke power plants such that electrons will continue to obey our commands. The difference between Britain and the US is that Britain is facing this question in 2005, with zero lead time. We have a great seat to watch what will be our own preview if we squander tne next decade as we have the past three.
3 Carter was prescient on energy, which he saw as his great test - most presidents have a couple. BUt, he failed to seize the nettle and cut off Iran's oil exports in response to the hostage crisis, which would have caused a brief spike in oil but would have quickly brought the hostages home. Judged a failure in what the US public thought the greater crisis, he was cast aside. The Iranian nettle is back - we will soon see if Sharon repeats Israel's past efforts at vetoing nuclear weapons from competitors.
4 Are people aware that, early in Clinton's administration, when Democrats had a majority in at least one house, a carbon tax was proposed, but that environmentalists did not support it because it seemed to favor nukes? Naturally, with no major group behind it, the CO2 supporters had easy work. It has always been true that people are either pro-coal/anti-nuke or anti-coal/pro-nuke. This will become more apparent as we go forward (or backward) into the future.
5 McMansions are mostly new, and many are extremely well insulated, using the latest materials and techniques. They might not use much more than that consumed by smaller, older homes. The main thing is that the poor and middle class luckily far outnumber the rich, so as a proportion of gdp the latter don't matter much.
Happy holidays.
Someone told me Economides predicted $20 by X-mas. We can put that in the wrong column, Agric. But I didn't here him say it, maybe someone can verify.
Put me down for $20 by next Christmas, though. And It would be interesting to see how many people, at least on The Oil Drum, would bet against that outcome.
Oh, wait...
In my understanding, in market based pricing, a falling supply will cause prices to rise. The rising prices will either cause suppliers to come up with any additional supply they can find, or more likely will cause consumers to cut back. Consumers are already cutting back. Industrial consumers are shutting down and leaving for places with cheaper supplies. Consumers can cut back a lot more than people think, though again, they will probably start screaming about the pain. At what point does the public pain cause the politicians to switch to rationing? Or, from the other side, at what point do so many producers nationalize production that the only way to get supplies to market is to go to war for them?
I think inflation, dollar devaluation, and recession are more likely responses than capitalism failing. Market pricing is much older than the oil age. Of course, if there's enough inflation and recession, we'll start reconsidering capitalism again, as we did in the depression. People are even less willing to accept severe changes in the labor market than they are in the energy market. As many have pointed out, large changes in the energy market will most likely result in large changes in the labor market at some point.
Why is the US being outbid.....
From the Wall Street Journal article
So yes the long term prices are not that bad, but any increase supply is well above the spot prices. And the only way to bring down prices is to......increase supply!. So either way we will pay high prices.
But there is no guarantee that supply and demand meets at a price where people are comfortable or even surviving.
Please do not mix theories about how markets work with naive almost religious ideas about markets allways providing comfortable lives for almost everybody.
A technically well functioning market is most of the time the most efficient way known to get limited resources to where they are most usefull and thus to get resources invested where they can grow.
This is most often very good in both good and bad times. I think abandoning market principles and laws supporting working markets, especially physical markets would be a terrible mistake during times when companies need to go bankrupt fast to free resources and other companies and other infrastructure need too be built fast.
The larger percentage of people that can be fed and find a future however poor in a working market economy the easier it probably is for the state to keep the rest alive in hope of them finding a future.