174 comments on Extrapolating World Production
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- We gave up a lot of that low-hanging fruit after 1985. It's still there.
- Technology hasn't stood still, and it's brought even more fruit into reach.
Just look at batteries. During the first energy crisis, we pretty much had flooded lead-acid and flooded nickel-cadmium. Today we've got several sealed varieties of both, plus lithium-ion with at least three completely different cathode chemistries (lithium cobalt oxide, iron lithium phosphate, lithium titanate). Even lead-acid is back, with lightweight carbon foam instead of solid metal for backing and interconnection.Transmission wires used to be copper, or copper over steel. Then they moved to aluminum, with or without steel cores. One of Richard Smalley's last projects was wires made of Buckytubes: 6 times as conductive as copper at 1/4 or less of the weight, and made of a material that we literally cannot run out of until we've sucked all of our emissions back to the Industrial Revolution out of the atmosphere and re-solidified them. What kind of fruit is that? It was unknown 30 years ago!
What kind of fruit are multiple-exciton photovoltaics? The 72 TW of wind power available world-wide?
The more we learn to do, the more we learn that we can do. There are ultimate physical limits, but they're far enough away that they cannot become anything that our current expectations would recognize as a crisis.
The problem with technology is that, as Tainter points out, it has an energy cost. Eventually, you reach the point where further investment in technology does not get you any more benefit.
We have suffered diminishing returns on technology now for at least 50 years. It's only going to get worse.
My grandfather was born shortly before the Wright Brothers' flight, and lived to see the space shuttle fly. I doubt I'll see progress like that in my lifetime.
Semiconductors. Genetics. Biotech. Heck, even solar PV is accelerating its energy-payback; thin-film is under 2 years, and single-crystal is below 4. Projections are that both of those numbers will fall by half, and that's assuming no alternatives to silicon.
You're way, way too pessimistic.
Easter Island?
I put a link to a paper by Tainter in my previous message. Here's a synopsis of his book, "The Collapse of Complex Societies":
http://members.aol.com/leanan7/tainter.htm
He did not just handwave. He crunched the numbers.
Semiconductors. Genetics. Biotech.
I'm not saying we've reached "the end of science" yet. Just that the cost is becoming prohibitive, and will be more so in the post-carbon age.
You're way, way too pessimistic.
On the contrary. I am being realistic. You're way, way too optimistic. :)
I used to be optimistic about technology. Heck, I'm an engineer, because I thought the future would be like Star Trek.
But it didn't turn out the way everyone thought it would. A decade after the Wright Brothers, there were commercial plane flights. More than 35 years after man walked on the moon, there are no commercial moonflights. Why is technology slowing down?
That is the question that brought me to peak oil.
Open a few casinos and bordellos.
Seriously, though, we haven't gotten particularly efficient at getting off the planet, have we?
The collapse of the civilizations in Central America seem more apropos. IIRC, they ran out of soil productivity because they mismanaged it and couldn't feed enough population to maintain their cities. The problem with applying this to the US is that there is (once again) so much low-hanging fruit; we can get about a 4:1 improvement in animal protein production just by replacing beef with chickens, catfish and tilapia. If we can farm algae rather than maize, my calculations indicate that we could feed a hundred people off a hectare of algae ponds.
I describe my causes for optimism, with numbers, on my blog. You might want to pick them apart and show me what I missed.Because aircraft were privately built, while manned spaceflight began as and remained a government monopoly.
I think you underestimate "pre-industrial" societies, and overestimate our own. The technology may be different, but the people - and the problems - are the same.
But the links I posted had plenty of other examples, from our own culture. Such as:
Agriculture: To increase world food production by 34 percent (between 1951 and 1966), it took a 63% increase in money spent on tractors, a 146% increase in money spent on nitrate fertilizers, and a 300% increase in money spend on pesticides. To get another 34% would take even more money.
Medicine: Despite the fact that we are spending more money on health care and medical research than ever, the American lifespan is not increasing much. The easy fixes - vitamins, vaccines, sanitation, etc. - have already been done. Now, we are struggling just to keep lifespan from decreasing (due to new challenges like AIDS).
Science: Most of the great work of science was done years, even centuries ago. Many of the greatest contributions to science were made by people without formal training. But the day is past when monks growing peas or people flying kites in the rain can make significant contributions to science. The general knowledge, which provided the greatest benefits, is already known. The specialist knowledge remaining to be discovered requires expensive education, for relatively little return. Something like 90% of all the scientists who have ever lived on earth are alive right now, yet technological innovation is slowing.
Oil: In 1950, one barrel of oil's worth of energy could get you 100 barrels in return. Now, it's more like 1:10 in the U.S., 1:30 for Middle East oil shipped here. That sort of decline applies to most resources: coal, copper, natural gas, etc.
R&D: Technology has saves us in the past; can it save us again? Probably not. Analysis shows that an increase in spending on R&D of 4.2% yields an improvement of only 2%. At that rate, even if every one of us becomes a scientist or engineer, we'll be losing ground.
Government: Increasing complexity means increasing bureaucracy, and all the expenses that entails. Generally, it means higher taxes. At first, the benefits of complexity - roads, schools, defense, public works - are so great that people don't mind paying taxes. But as complexity increases, taxes rise, and the local benefit decreases. The government must spend resources on enforcing compliance. Generally, the tipping point is about 20% - which we're past.
You see what I mean? It's not that we won't continue innovating. It's that it's taking more and more work, more and more energy, more and more resources, for less and less benefit. In the face of peak oil, we will not be able to continue down that path.
Because aircraft were privately built, while manned spaceflight began as and remained a government monopoly.
We would not have commercial air flights now if it weren't for government support. We would not have any transportation systems at all without the government.
Do we need another 34%? I understand that Monsanto has nitrogen-fixing maize (there goes your whole budget for nitrates), BT corn is only the first step (what were you saying about pesticides?), and tractors are only required by non-subsistence farmers. Tractors last decades if properly maintained, and small tractors have been converted to electric propulsion with good results.
If you go to non-traditional crops, things look even better. My (somewhat pessimistic) calculations indicate that you can grow 3000 calories/day of tilapia for 115 people on a hectare of algae pond.
I suppose it never occurred to you that AIDS, heart disease and lung cancer are mostly behavioral diseases. Serve green salads instead of french fries and spend enough time harassing smokers to quit and promiscuous people and IV drug abusers to change their ways, and those problems shrink with no medical advances at all. Of course, you might not like the liberty costs.Outside those areas, science still yields dividends. There have been recent developments in vaccine production, to give one example. Using fragments of DNA instead of whole viruses and multiplying them in vats rather than growing them in eggs could produce a year's worth of vaccine in days or weeks instead of months. The major obstacle there isn't scientific or technological, it's financial/bureaucratic.
Oddly, we are still getting original contributions to science and mathematics from entries in high-school science fairs. Only the creme de la creme, of course, but they exist.You conflate science with technology. Technology uses science, but scientists do not typically create technologies.
The pace of technological change continues to accelerate in many areas; just look at the announcements over the last 2 years in photovoltaics, batteries, and biotech. (That's just what I've been looking at; there's much more.)
What does a kWh of energy into a wind turbine get you back? What are the prospects for coppiced willow shrubs, or Miscanthus Giganticus? (They're perennials; you plant them, and they produce for 10 years or more.)Sounds more to me that there's a limit to the pace at which human institutions can absorb change. Since it is obviously drawn from historical data, it cannot mean that there is some end point beyond which we can't advance; we've never seen any such thing, and such a conclusion cannot be supported by experience.
More likely, it means that we've got X fraction of people who are effective at R&D; once they are fully employed, spending more money means bringing in less-effective people who yield less for the expenditure. No mysteries there. Creating better analytical and other development tools will increase productivity across the board; the easier they are to use, the more people will see greater productivity.
I completely fail to see how advances like better vaccines, improved PV systems or Buckytube wires for electric transmission require more complex government. Lots of things would be improved by a less complex government, with fewer loopholes and preferences for existing special interests (which are threatened by innovation and tend to oppose what they don't control).I understand you, it's just that I'm absolutely certain you're wrong.
Hah. Private turnpikes in the USA date from 1795, and of the major modes of transport over the last 20 centuries, government invented exactly zero of them. The first airfields were private, the first railroads were private, the first steamships were private... I have not studied the matter, but I would not be surprised to learn that the first barge canals were private.
Government serves best by studying to see if the public interest is best served by a particular type or direction of development, setting up non-discriminatory incentives if it is, and then getting out of the way. Fix global warming? Set up a comprehensive system of GHG emission taxes and sequestration credits, get out of the way. If government has done it right it will cost to do the wrong thing and pay to do the right thing, and people will stampede to do the things that pay. The people who set the policy don't have to know how the ends will be accomplished, only that the benefits are restricted to those actions which accomplish them. What gets rewarded, gets done.
Wrong. We have something humanity has never had before: cheap oil.
All the "advances" you list are possible because of cheap energy. Energy has been so cheap, for so long, we cannot imagine life without it. We are fish, trying to imagine the desert.
As a small example...glass-making has been known for 5,000 years or more. Yet most people did not use it until recently. Why? Because it was too expensive. It took so much fuel to make that only the wealthy could afford it. We are so used to cheap energy that the idea of materials such as steel and glass being too expensive for ordinary people to own is completely foreign to us. But that is the future we are looking at.
Private turnpikes in the USA date from 1795, and of the major modes of transport over the last 20 centuries, government invented exactly zero of them. The first airfields were private, the first railroads were private, the first steamships were private... I have not studied the matter, but I would not be surprised to learn that the first barge canals were private.
I'm not talking about the "first." I'm talking about usable infrastructure. How many people would buy cars if there weren't any highways to drive on? And would even Bill Gates be able to afford to build the whole road system himself? No. Similarly, airlines were made possible by government funding of airports. They built a bunch of them for wartime use, and that opened up aviation for widespread civilian use. Even now, the FAA funds 90% or more of airport construction costs. The major airlines have never been really profitable. They exist because of government subsidies.
Yes, the government can be inefficient at doing what it does. But that's sort of my point. Part of the cost of complexity is that "overhead." It becomes harder and harder to coordinate among all the specialists. Yet it must be done...at greater and greater cost.
Oil and coal aren't the only things we learned to make cheap(er). Wind turbines are nearly competitive with coal, and much cheaper than N. American gas. PV has come down from dollars/kWh to a small multiple of retail rates. Ethanol is a boondoggle, but we've got a host of different ways to grow other fuels and raw materials.
We never had those before the past few decades, and they're not something that we can use up. You can't exhaust the sun, the wind or knowledge.
Really? Storage batteries and wind turbines are only possible because of cheap energy? (Both predate the rise of petroleum.) Gene transfer and electric tractors? (We were making tractors with coal and firing them with wood before we learned how to use electricity effectively. That knowledge isn't going away.)And here I was thinking it was because monarchs decided to do silly things like imposing exorbitant taxes on windows when they got popular.
Everyone who bought a Model T did.
Here's what you said:
There were paths passable by wagons in areas where government did nothing. There were boats and barges on rivers, lakes and seas. This isn't much of a transportation system as we understand it, but it was there. Railroads were largely developed with private money (and governmental land grants, but that was mostly money-grubbing). All of these would have been extended where the usefulness justified the investment; as I showed you, in many cases these investments were private. All government has to do is allocate property rights so that the investment can be recovered.This would have been a great surprise to Eddie Rickenbacker, who built Eastern Airlines well before WWII's boom in airport construction (his fleet of DC-3's went into war service). IIRC, the US Army Air Corps was still flying biplanes in 1941.
You mean, like all the specialists who had to coördinate to build all the applications we use on the Internet? Wait, they just took common protocols and built what they wanted on top of them without any need to get permission from anyone. Hey, how about all the specialists who made all our electrical stuff run? Whoops, no coördination there either; they took the electrical codes and built stuff to work with it. Maybe all the people who have to coördinate to get a city's worth of commuters to work in their cars every morning? (snicker)
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. The only reason you would have such coördination issues is if the problem cannot be broken down into manageable pieces, or if an idiotic government imposes a command-and-control system where everyone has to get permission before doing anything. The only reason you see problems is because you have no knowledge of how things actually get done, or you willfully ignore what you see.