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141 comments on HYDROGEN - grease to the elbow of Scottish power?
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141 comments on HYDROGEN - grease to the elbow of Scottish power?
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GAIA Host Collective
The tube (underground/subway) can be improved with investment.
Flooding will have to be addressed, and not just for the underground.
I thought the water table was dropping in the South East ?
Overheating is not a unsurmountable problem.
* Bicycles - Not to everyones taste - I live in the UK (England) so I know the climate well. It is not well suited to bicycles all year round (wet, cold, snow, ice etc).
Also unsuitable for longer distances (even within London).
* Buses.
Last resort for many (Bendy or not).
* Light Rail.
I do support light rail, a prefered solution to buses.
(See http://www.lightrailnow.org).
The UK does need to invest in electrified public transport.
both for local and longer distance transport.
Surface transport is much cheaper to build, but must compete for space with other land/road users. Elevated rail addresses this to some extent. New York's underground (subway) was built by digging trenches and then restoring the road above it (rather than the deep underground of London).
The opportunities for sprawl are limited in the UK (by planning and green belt if nothing else).
90% of UK journeys are less than 5 miles, so well within cycling distance. In London cycling would actually be faster than most other means of transportation.
On bicycling and climate, it doesn't seem to bother the Danes or the Dutch! I grew up in Toronto, which is a genuinely inhospitable climate to cycling (too hot and humid or too cold): there aren't 10 days in London which are as bad, in an entire year. It's all a matter of your reference point. Given congestion, there really aren't ways of getting another million of us (projected population rise to 2030 I believe) around London.
(I should add, for safety concerns, that I never cycle in London)
Buses. You have captured the 'middle class British' view perfectly. Whether Maggie T really said 'anyone over 24 who takes a bus is a loser' or not, I don't know, but the sentiment caught the zeitgeist.
but our dear Mayor has engineered a '4% modal shift' from cars to buses, via the congestion charge. I don't know if you live in Central London, but I do. Buses have become a preferred method of transportation (pace the bendy bus, which drives me nuts), even for middle class professionals. Particularly given what has happened to the Tube (tube journeys have doubled since the late 80s-- arguably a victim of its own success).
There has never been a 'to bus' modal shift recorded in history. Yet London has managed it.
I expect, in time, that will percolate around the country. But congestion will have to get much worse, and local councils much tougher. Not everyone has its own home-grown anarchist-trotskyist demagogue.
Light Rail the Treasury has put the brakes on, because they don't see the cost-benefit working out. Manchester nearly lost its extension (I think they clawed it back politically).
For sure we should rebuild the Camden Town to Elephant and castle tram line (the one that ran down where the tunnel is at Holborn-Kingsway). But it's not even on the strategic plan, AFAIK. Uxbridge Road is the next one.
Water level: before the current drought, the concern in London was that the water level was rising due to less industrial offtake (industry in London almost gone). The Tube has had recurrent flooding problems. (my father built some of the original flood doors on the Northern Line-- the plan was to shut them in case of a nuclear war, you can see the grooves in the floor where they would swing. I think of them fondly every time I walk by them-- son and father connected by 55 years).
If sea levels rise, and we get more flash flooding, then London's underground system is quite vulnerable.
My understanding is New York could use 'cut and cover' subway construction because the roads were wider, and the ground better. Most North American subways were built with 'cut and cover' it costs something like a 10th of tunneling.
One of the reasons the Picaddilly Line wobbles the way it does is that apparently they couldn't buy the foundation rights from the freeholders, they had to literally dodge some buildings in South Ken and Knightsbridge.
On Sprawl, the Deputy Prime Minister is laying plans for 250,000 new homes in the South East-- Thames Gateway, also Milton Keynes, Northampton and a few other places. sprawl is very real, and very British. Agree its less than an American city.
What machinery is needed inside the stations besides cooling baffels and pipes? It should be bossible to drill lined holes and insert pipes for transfer of the chilled district cooling water to a convienient location for the chilling machinery.
Btw I am quite happy today regarding local post peak oil investments in Sweden. Our new liberal/right wing government presented its first budget today and added 20% on the railway infrastructure maintainance and investment budget.
You could put chillers on the surface (but not in the central London stations) but
the tunnels are open to the air (every Tube line has open air sections)
so the motion of the trains would just suck the hot air back in.
It's like trying to air condition a building with all the windows and doors open.
I found out about the contest after it was closed.
My proposal:
- Run all makeup air for the stations through dehumidifers that also cooled. This lowers humidity and lowers the temperature a bit. Comfort zones increase (wider band) as humidity drops.
- On cold winter nights (say after midnight weekdays) blow quantities of outside are through the tunnels for several hours. This will remove some of the acculmulated heat from the rocks that a century of heat (people + electricity) has added. It may be near freezing in the Tube for those few riders late at night and aftereffects for early morning riders.
- Go for lower energy for lighting. MAXIMUM efficiency. Lower light levels where safe. Start pumping less heat into the Tube.
Best Hopes,Alan
This BBC story covers using the ground water pumped out, to cool the air in the tunnels.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5058362.stm
http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/Cooling.pdf
Re: modal shift to buses, didn't York achive this first with their park and ride scheme, of course having a medieval city centre and city wall (not to mention the river) limits your options.
No congestion charge, just park and ride schemes and not moterised access to the city centre.
Cycling - It is often the 10% that are more than five miles (like the commute to work) which are non-discresionary.
Isn't the density of the sprawl sufficent to justify light rail or other public transport, (it is not low density sprawl) of course, adding public transport at the planning stage would have been ideal. But that goes for other amenities too.
I have several differences with current government transport policy, their views on light rail and road charging are just two.
Banning cars in Central London just wasn't going to work. They have restricted them to an extraordinary extent as it is, and they are only about 20% of peak traffic.
The congestion charge was the stroke of genius. The national congestion charge will come, but only when the traffic problem gets almost insuperable. Traffic grows roughly in line with GDP, so give it 20 years or so and severe traffic congestion will be something like 25% of UK road space, 50% of the time.
The problem with air con on the Tube is you can't put it on the cars, (the tunnels are too small).
Maybe you can air con the stations but most of that would be lost down the tunnels (which are not air tight).
Cycling will be the way forward in London, and other places. Because cycling has no CO2 impact, and cycling has nearly no congestion impact.
It's the only feasible way to expand the capacity of the system. Other than buses, but buses without their own right of ways don't cause switching.
To make a subway work financially, on Toronto metrics, you need 20,000 people per square mile. A British suburb is less than 5,000 people per square mile-- light rail you would need . 10,000.
What the government is saying is that it will not fund the ongoing operating losses of light rail systems. That is why there has been a halt on constructing new ones. Note the Wimbledon system in south London has disappointed against traffic projections.
You can do it economically with buses, but as you say people don't like taking buses, and won't if they have an alternative. Milton Keynes being the case in point-- if you don't have a car, you are really cut off in MK.
Brits are not North Americans-- the idea of living in tall apartment blocks in the city centre does not appeal. I know a lot have been built more recently, but even if downtown Manchester has a population of 15,000 now, from virtually zero 15 years ago, this is still a small fraction of the population of metropolitan Manchester.
and I suspect most people are buying those flats to get a 'foot on the ladder', not to live in them forever.
You are not trying to air condition the underground, but to dump excess heat, here ground water at 12C seemd ideal, as does just using convection to dump heat to the atmosphere by drilling vertical shafts (where practical) and letting convection solve the problem. You can always heat the carrages in the event of the underground becoming too cold.
I am still skeptical that cycling will ever become the dominant form of transport, but when practical facilities should be improved for cycleists, and they could be allowed in public transport zones.
You metrics assume certain factors, if we modify those factors (like restricting access via private car), or just raising the cost of motoring and lowering the cost of public transport, we can influence the metrics that justify public transport. But dense high traffic routes are the obvious targets for high quality frequent public transport (and that does not mean Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) in my view).
The densities choosen for new developments are quite high (I don't have the figures).
The first step may be to expand existing rail routes etc and increase capacity and frequency on the railways, examine the underperformance of some light rail schemes light rail and further disincentivise private car use in urban centres through restrictions rather than congestion charges.
One way or another we need to make public transport cheap and convienent, and Rail/Light Rail offers the best opportunity for switching.
Many new towns appear to lack any public transport infrastructure. I am thinking of the one just outside Edinburgh, and Cumbernauld (both on M8 between Edinburgh and Glasgow). They are souless.
Look at the Leeds Supertram, they rejected it (in favour of suggesting a BRT scheme), on the grounds that costs had doubled. But that was costs not adjusted for inflation.
Needless to say 12 years of inflation explained the increased costs, and the enabling legislation expired.
Ground temperature is almost constant, year round.
What is not constant is the heat generated by the machinery, people and the heat taken in from the outside air. Every Tube line has open air bits.
We would have to drill new tunnels, which is virtually a physical impossibility.
Tube air temperatures are, broadly, the sum of outside temps + electrical use + body heat.
The concept is to cool the rock around the Tube for, say, 1000 hours/year each year and, at a minimum, stop the increasing temperatures and hopefully reverse the process slightly.
Best Hopes,
Alan
Lowering the lighting levels any further would be entirely unsafe.
The best white LED's available commercialy struggle to get 40 lumens/watt. Lumiled's best is 120 lumens at 3.7W
Fluorescents get over 90 lumens/watt. Standard T5 triphosphor fluorescents from Osram get 2600 lumens at 28W
Best Hopes,
Alan
Alan
Osram SOX-E 91WBY32D RWL1 gives 17000 lumens for 90W in, that's 189 lumens/watt
I thought low pressure sodium was in the 150 lumens/watt range (>100 lumens/watt does not set an upper bound). Perhaps technology has improved. Good if so :-)
Alan
Since maintenance is an issue in London, I do not expect that they are any better.
Best Hopes,
Alan
Frustratingly, even in the rebuilt stations, they are not, AFAIK, thinking energy conservation.
1/2-1/3rd of lighting power consumption, I presume you mean. The big draws are still electric traction, elevators and air circulation?