Primal Scream Response to Peak Oil ("You can't handle the truth")

I love some of the posts today, but this is my favorite:

Thats because the market is currently OVER SUPPLIED by about 500,000 barrels, which explains why production has declined the last few months or so, as theres no place to sell said oil.  Mmmm, is the peak being undermined by a single loose thread?

In other words, the author asserts  that Peak Oil is being undermined by an alleged oversupply of about 0.5 mbpd, which is about 0.6% of total liquids production, at a time when even ExxonMobil estimates that existing wellbores are declining at up to 5 mbpd per year.

In addition, we have credible evidence that the four largest producing oil fields in the world are declining or crashing, with steadily rising water cuts.  

You know what the difference is between the per capita energy consumption in the EU and Japan (average of about 3.9 TOE per year)  versus 7.8 for the US?  It's the discretionary fluff here in the US.  It's the majority of Americans driving to and from work who derive their paycheck from the discretionary side of the economy.  

Let me be blunt. The majority of jobs in this country are not necessary.  The Europeans live the way we should live, in smaller housing, close to work or along mass transit lines--using half of the per capita energy that Americans use.

I think that so many Americans are reacting so strongly (and irrationally) to the slightest signs that Peak Oil may not be real because they realize, at some basic level, that our imaginary economy--and our high per capita energy consumption--are doomed.

Let me put this is the most basic terms.  You need to produce or perish.  Jobs in discretionary sectors are going to be targeted for destruction by natural selection.  

I am beginning to believe that Matt Savinar is right.  As someone said, it is pointless to try to get someone to understand something when their income depends on them not understanding what you are saying.

The "service economy" ultimately results in us "servicing" each other without actually producing anything.  

We have largely become prostitutes to one another

PERFECT SEGWAY!

Don't know if this is true, BUT check out this blog where a las Vegas mortgage broker is offering prostitution to close loans.

Hmmm...I'll let you guys tear this one up....

http://blog.lewrockwell.com/lewrw/archives/011473.html

I think you meant segue.  This is a segway:

Hey, I'm just here to help.

Good point.  Damn pop culture.
Uh, can we tack this on to the back side of the loan?

I can hear it now..........
Honey? whats this $200 service fee?
And why is she smiling?

We have largely become prostitutes to one another

I prefer to think of it in terms of artist/patron relationships.

That's my social model of choice : we should all be artists in some way, and appreciative consumers of all manner of art, whether it be haircuts, good coffee, street theatre... Work is overrated. You need to do it (and to produce stuff), but not as much as you think you do.

Responding to this and the laundry comment below.

Is there anything really wronmg with exchanging services between people and does anyone seriously think it is desirable to stop doing it?

If I follow this logic, it is OK if I make a shoe for you, but repairing it is prostitution?

Then, I guess manufacturing and airplane is good. But that airplane needs to be designed. So if one company both designs and builds the airplane it is OK, but if a separate company provides the design as a service it is now terrible?

The distinction between goods and services is to a large degree meaningless and arbitrary.

I used to build houses, now I work on a computer all day and am much better off for it. Does that make me the happy hooker?

Services only make sense in the contxt of some underlying level of production - that seems intuitively obvious.  It is possible in a globalized economy to have one nation's economic activity heavily weighted toward services, but it seems to me that this is only possible if some of the services are supplied, either directly or indirectly, to nations whose economies are mainly production-driven.

If globalization is reduced in a post-peak world with reduced transportation, it will become more necessary for individual nations (or even regions within nations) to have mixed economies with some base level of production kept local.  Services retain value, but only if there is some production on which they can act.  Somebody has to make the shoes on which the repairman plies his trade.  If it's too expensive to import them from China, they need to be produced locally.

It seems to me that the fears of American post-peak decline due to a lack of a manufacturing base are largely based on an understanding of this fact.

[oh dear, I should have read your post completely before writing my reply... I'm really only saying the same thing! Never mind... Consider it a reply to your first paragraph]

Depends whether the globalization component is considered a given.

i.e. if you assume that you're morally bound to buy any given commodity from the lowest bidder, then Europe and the USA are f*cked, quite frankly. On a level playing field, i.e. no tariffs or subsidies, someone else will produce food, clothes, steel, cars, electronics, just about everything in fact, cheaper than we can. So actual production will be minimal in an advanced, high wage, environmentally-correct, high-rental economy. This is the big trend we see.

Technological innovation can arguably make up a lot of the gradient; but only if the economy never matures. i.e. the Chinese won't need to buy Euro cars or US electronics for ever.

The exposure we have in a globalised economy becomes pretty frightening if there's a risk of a blow-up.

If, on the other hand, a given economic basin organises itself for a minimum of self-sufficience in strategic areas, then the potential for a sustainable productive economy becomes much greater. I am well aware that I'm speaking heresy here.

I had severe misgivings at seeing the Euro textile industry sacrificed on the altar of free trade. If they do it to agriculture, I'll be on the streets protesting it.

"someone else will produce food, clothes, steel, cars, electronics, just about everything in fact, cheaper than we can."

It depends on whether the manufacturing can be done with unskilled labor.  Unskilled labor is the area where China, and Mexico, etc excels.  There's still a fair amount of skilled manufacturing in OECD countries that is competitive.

Westexas , when did exxon make that comment about decline rates?
Lee Raymond put the underlying decline rate from existing wellbores worldwide at between 4% to 6%.   This before new wells, workovers etc.  It does show you how hard we have to work to stay even, let alone add increase production.  

Historically, when the big fields roll over, a region can't increase its production.  As I have repeatedly said, we have abundant evidence that our biggest fields are headed downhill--thus the flat to declining production, despite new wells coming on line.

Thanks.
I agree. I think we are declining on old fields at 3% in spite of infilling. I am making this conclusion by estimates of 5.5 million barrels of new usable capacity added since October 2004.
Haaa...well put westex!!

Even though I have a fluff job from the perspective of post PO, I do have my Plan B in place and have for the last two years.  I will milk what I can outta this employment while it lasts.

I've been looking for the best way to describe what I am seeing in my business world...the best word is "contraction".

You can see contraction everywhere...contraction of budgets, workforce, size of candy bars, support services, patience...we are all contracting down to what is the thing of core value...not the nice to haves.

We're like the village that subsists on taking in each other's laundry, in other words...
I dunno? We're like the laundry that takes in each other's village? I'm confused. Set me straight.
I think this is actually the correct model, though it needs to get the bugs taken out : in the future, it should not be left to the market, it needs to be organised in order to provide social cohesion.

I remember reading about a chess club (perhaps in NY in the thirties or something) where men sat all day in smoky rooms, playing chess and betting on their games. How did they make a living? Off each other... a certain number of them had real jobs, and as they were not full-time players, tended to be not as good as the others, thereby injecting enough money for everyone to subsist... A simplified model of a service economy.

A simplified model of a service economy.
Gee... just like Las Vegas,
Or ... Indian gaming casinos,
Or ... those who work for the State Lottery system and claim they bring something of value to our civilization.
This thread puts me in mind of that Hitchiker's Guide scene where they meet the misdirected spaceship full of middlemen, hair stylists, etc.  All the "important" people had been sent in the other two ships.  

I often wonder which ship I'd be on.

I think that about sums it up.

Obviously, the weak link is that some of the players have to have real jobs.  If they don't, the whole thing collapses.

Similarly, we can't really all make a living doing each other's laundry.  In the end, clean laundry in a luxury.  Food, water, shelter, clothing...those are the necessities.  Someone has to do real work to provide them.  And I suspect more and more of us will be doing it ourselves, as we lose our ability to pay someone else to do it for us.

No ticky no washy or something like that.
Illuminative model, but leaves out the 'role' of the financial industry and the global elites who 'own'/control it- everytime someone wins or loses, they collect a seemingly modest transaction fee.  They couldn't care less who wins and who loses, just as long as we all keep playing!
This reminds me of something that Colbert said on his show to an author that was on.  She was talking about how many stay-at-home moms get shanked by the social security system if their husbands die early because, in the eyes of social security, they've not done any work and therefore recieve no benefits.  Colbert then suggest (in the Colbert way) that each mother moves over one house and babysits the kid next door, thereby each mother is getting paid to stay at home with the children but paying the same exact amount to have her kids looked after.  Same amount of "work" getting done, but lots and lots of cash flying around that wouldn't otherwise.  Even though he was just making a joke, it's an interesting thought.

Smash up the car. It will have to be fixed or replaced. The auto industry employs, directly and indirectly, one of every seven workers in the U.S., and they need the overtime.

...

Get Mother Nature On Your Side. Pray for a natural disaster: a hurricane, an earthquake, a big fire, a flood. Disasters give the GDP a tremendous life because of all the rebuilding that must take place.

Yeah, that's some good stuff.  When I saw that link I immediately thought about the quiet hurricane season.  I wonder how big of a chunk not having any big destruction has taken out of the economy.

The Parable of the Broken Window
by Frederic Bastiat, 1850:

    Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James Goodfellow, when his careless son happened to break a square of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact, that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation--"It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"

    Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

    Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade--that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs--I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

    But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

    It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

Actually, what I was pointing out was the fact that everyone here seems to be celebrating the fact that 'peak oil' apparently happened on December/January 05/06, and that we can never produce more oil then what we did then.  The thought seems to never have crossed anyones minds that the demand simply isnt there to support an increase in production at the present time and THE DAMN MARKET IS CURRENTLY OVERSUPPLIED.

THAT is the loose thread that is currently undermineing your peak oil revalries.

I'll give you props for the excellent spin though, sir!

It's simply not true that "everyone here" believes the peak was 12/05. There are many here who think peak will come sometime between now and about 2015 (with 2008-12 being very popular estimates).

But to your point about current prices - supply and demand in the market at any one point in time are the biggest determiners of price, some would say the only determinants. That doesn't say anything about geological supply or long term demand. If you make the mistake of thinking that the current lull in prices demonstrates peak oil is false, than you are making the same mistake as those who think that recent high prices demonstrate that peak oil is true.

Again people are trying to put words into my mouth.  Obviously 'peak oil' is a geological issue, and cant be refuted.  What im refuting is the fact that many here seem to believe it has already occured, and keep touting their graphs to prove it.  It simply isnt true, or at the very least cant be proven true at the present time considering how oversupplied the market currently is.
Perhaps it is you who is putting words in other's mouths?

First thing I wrote was that not everyone here believes we are past peak. But you chose not to address that.

Second portion of my post specifically said "If you believe...." But you seemed to have ignored that, too.

Wasn't it you that made some smart ass remark about semantics  elsewhere in this thread? You seem to be quite dogmatic in your attitude for someone who suggests that "at the very least cant be proven true at the present time." That's not exactly the kind of strong statement that I'd use to go around implying people are completely off base.

I believe it is oversupplied to those that can afford it.
THE DAMN MARKET IS CURRENTLY OVERSUPPLIED.

Which only makes it more likely that Dec 05 will remain the all-time production high. This would be neither a geological peak nor even a logistical peak, but simply an economic peak.

Think about it : if there is oversupply of oil at $75 or even $60, during a period of strong international economic growth, then when will there ever be demand for greater levels of production? If there is a US recession that lasts several years, gradually dragging other economies down from their current levels of growth, and simultaneously energy saving is imcreasing, and energy substitution kicks in, then it seems likely enough to me that the top of the world production curve will just never happen... that the demand plateau will extend for several years, until it hits the logistico-geological downslope of world production (which will have been pushed out at least a little way).

That's my rosy, best-case scenario. If it happens at a barrel price that is low enough to handicap oil-sands and coal-to-oil, but high enough to make large-scale solar viable, then that's even cooler. Here's to $60 oil!

OPEC just announced a production cut of 1 million BBP from their current production rates.  Specifically Saudi Arabia said it would shoulder most of the burdeon despite pumping 9.1 million bpd.  Either they're production just plumented, or we really were over supplied after all!!

And alistairC, thats VERY short sighted of you, as demand could always increase next year and we surprise our Deffeys December peak, makeing the entire issue a mute point.  Poor stuart, all those graphs for nothing :P

Hothgor: You missed the third option. They have logically grasped the facts of (their)oil depletion and would prefer not to give it away for free (as they have done in the past). Posters have labelled OPEC greedy for drawing a line at $60 but IMO it is a public statement that they are confident they have peaked (regardless of what they say to the MSM).
demand could always increase next year

Well, it could. But the smart money is on a US recession. And demand is currently flat or decreasing with a booming world economy. So you'll have to explain your scenario.

I have no religion as to whether the Saudis' production is in geological decline. But if so, this is an extraordinarily happy coincidence for them.

Wasn't that Mark Twain who said that?  At least that's how Al Gore quoted it in "An Inconvenient Truth".  

Sales of SUVs and light trucks are up in September. We here at TOD live in a completely opaque bubble, completely free of the real world perceptions and values of those outside the bubble. Al Gore said that dealing with global warming was a moral imperative. Can it be that people have still not gotten the message? Or if they have the message, they don't care. Must buy new shiny, gas guzzling vehicles.  Price of gas is all that matters.  If gas is down this month, I guess they figure it will be down for the life of their vehicles.  Except when it goes up again, they will bitch like banshees.