The Oil Drum | DrumBeat: October 2, 2006

241 comments on DrumBeat: October 2, 2006

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expat on October 2, 2006 - 9:35am

Well, in Germany, a large number of the sidewalks are actually flat brick/cinder blocks - laid by hand, pounded in over sand, generally staying level for years. If the underlying pipes/cables need to be accessed, the 'bricks' are simply picked up, piled, and then placed again. In some areas around here, asphalt sidewalks are being actively replaced with this older style - it costs less, and lasts longer,

Though a newly paved asphalt stretch is certainly more comfortable to ride over, the difference between it and the brick (when well done) is not that great - especially considering the number of paths which people ride over fields or through forests - those tend to be a bit harder going.

Such simple solutions are the sort of thing which people need to think about - the bricks seem to last decades, whereas asphalt has a much shorter lifespan. Of course, we all know that only asphalt or concrete, handled by heavy equipment, is the only way for humans to build roadways - even for bicycles or walking.

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dinopello on October 2, 2006 - 9:59am

They made the sidewalks like that here in Arlington, Va (pavers), only they never seemed to be able to figure out how to keep the pavers from settling and becoming uneven which drew complaints - largely from the elderly and disabled. I think one of the benefits was also that the pavers allowed rainwater penetration and reduce impervious surface runoff. However, due to the settling problem, they started putting down a concrete foundation for the pavers which of course eliminated the water penetration and made the construction cost a lot. Now, we are going back to simple poured concrete.

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expat on October 2, 2006 - 1:21pm

I have wondered about that in general, since the idea works so poorly in America, and here are a couple of general theories -

The weather is more extreme, especially in terms of water/ice. European weather is more temperate (boring) than the weather I grew up with in Northern Virginia.
The Germans do a much better job building this way. For example, a good number of Aldi parking lots here are made like this, and even after years of cars and the regular 18 wheel delivery trucks, the parking lot is still in fine shape. The various brick shapes, tools, equipment (compacting the soil and sand especially), training, etc. are well tested in practice.
Unlike in America, the German emphasis tends to be on the long term - in other words, the job is done right since it is supposed to last, not merely save money or be attractive. This also includes maintenance.

Personally, it is a good bet that the weather is a solid reason for the difference, but the other two factors also play a major role. All the work I have seen in America wouldn't be acceptable here for even the most casually done homeowner job.

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tate423 on October 2, 2006 - 1:36pm

To add to this I understand the Germans include maintenance as a part of the state bid process. This is where real money can be made. If you are bidding a project and screw up the maintenance estimate, it's on your company. If you overestimate what it will cost and you make some extra cash, it's yours - you did a hellavu job! I like this a lot!

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dinopello on October 2, 2006 - 1:44pm

Weather might be an issue, skilled labor certainly, and attitude (long term vs short) - I think you hit them all.

Although I have been to other European cities (not German) where they had pavers hundreds of years old, only they did have slight uneveness to them. This is one of the reasons that sturdy walking shoes are helpful. We now adhere to ADA (American with Disabilities Act) that I think requires a certain smoothness to all surfaces and it was this requirement also that I think drove Arlington to go back to concrete.

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expat on October 2, 2006 - 2:28pm

Certainly there is a lot of variation between recently laid, consistently produced bricks and things done hundreds of years of ago - there is a lot of variation in Germany too.

But with some experience in pushing people in wheelchairs here, I can say that the German sidewalks definitely stand up well to comparison.

It also occurs to that Germans use fairly heavy and largish bricks in general, while the stones I have seen in American are quite small.

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neon9 on October 2, 2006 - 2:56pm

There is a German company, Uni (or Uni-eco) that has patented a paver with a small spacer that leaves a gap between laid pavers, to allow more water to infiltrate into the soil. Neat idea, they are sold worldwide now I believe.
The key with pavers and indeed any pavement is the base. I think inproper base preparation is often the reason you see them fail.
They are going down my street now and tearing up and repouring 5-20 foot lengths of concrete sidewalk where the sections have heaved, mostly due to tree roots.

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josephdietrich on October 2, 2006 - 3:16pm

<q>there is a lot of variation in Germany too</q> You can say that again. The roads and bikeways in Kreis Koblenz are mostly awful for a road bike compared to the roads in Niedersachsen (or for that matter southwestern Indiana).

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phineas gage on October 2, 2006 - 1:22pm

My city has removed asphalt to restore some of our original brick streets and is trying to restore others or redo with new brick. They determined that although the cost of asphalt in the short run is much cheaper, with the cost of maintenance the break even point is roughly 18 to 20 years with the traffic we have. Brick was deemed beneficial on all but the most heavily used roads. I live on a brick street that probably hasn't had more than 100 man hours and a few hundred dollars worth of sand as maintenance since it was laid a little over a hundred years ago. When you go the speed limit (25 mph, residential) it doesn't feel rough at all.

The downside is that the number one expense of making bricks is energy. so the cost of bricks will rise in lock step with energy. The energy source, however, is flexible. Electric heat or direct burning of coal or gas are most common, but gas from landfills is also being used. Some brick factories are placed next to sawmills and burn sawdust and scrap wood as the energy source. Many brick factories close during winter months due to high NG prices.

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PeakOilPete on October 2, 2006 - 4:04pm

i heard a story on npr about a new type of asphalt (or paving concrete) that uses less of a binder such that it allows water to drain through it. this is not exactly a peak oil topic, though it is important for sustainability post collapse b/c one thing that is going to screw us in america is drout and falling water tables/aquifers. paving every inch of a region as we are wont to do tends to cause rain water to run off into not-useful places, like flooded streets or the sea, rather than seep into the ground. this is why i am going to lay brick where i park the prius, rather than concrete (tabby, really, a concrete sea shell mix).

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Leanan on October 2, 2006 - 3:05pm

Yeah, but the problem with Germany is the giant bugs.

Seriously, one issue we have with concrete pavers is aesthetics. They look nice when you first install them, but after a few weeks or months, weeds start growing between the cracks. Property owners find this very unattractive. The solution? Spray herbicide regularly.

But probably the main reason we don't use pavers more often is the expense. Asphalt is a lot cheaper.

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tate423 on October 2, 2006 - 3:13pm

WTF is that bug anyway?

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Dragonfly41 on October 2, 2006 - 3:42pm

Big-ass earwig?

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tate423 on October 2, 2006 - 3:49pm

New question. What is an earwig?

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Dragonfly41 on October 2, 2006 - 4:15pm

Oh...those are the bugs that crawl in your ear at night to eat the wax.

No, no...just kidding. Harmless little buggers that grow no more than 1/4 inch.

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fleam on October 2, 2006 - 9:49pm

Come on, earwigs I've seen around California get up to an inch or so, they have big pincers on their rear ends, and like to live under logs and leaves and things. I think they use the pincers to bluff with, they can't pinch very hard with them, maybe to grab onto each other in mating or dominance battles or something too, They're really harmless. One time I accidentally rolled one up in my rifle shooting mat and took it home, went back the next day and unrolled the mat, and there was Mr pincher bug, looking a little woozy but ok.

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Wharf Rat on October 3, 2006 - 10:05am

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Bryant on October 3, 2006 - 11:12am

Two kinds of earwigs here in the US; American and European. Care to guess which one is responsible for most crop damage? That's right, the European earwig is a crop pest.

BTW, they are called earwigs because they infest corn ears; specifically the silks, which they will eat. This leads to ears missing rows of kernals. Sometimes, if there are enough earwigs, there is a complete absence of kernals...pretty poor eating, that.

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roel on October 2, 2006 - 3:38pm

Damage to roads is directly related to the weight of what travels on them. A 4000 pound vehicle causes 64x as much damage as a 1000 pound one, if I remember correctly.

Bicycle paths need hardly any upkeep, if built well, whether asphalt or paved. Spivak and Hart's The elephant in the bedroom states the example of university campuses as good use of roads. Negligible maintenance.
There are cobblestone roads in Europe that are 100's of years old. Zero maintenance.

Decrease traffic, and it makes little difference what you make the road of. But then comes stormwater runoff. The idea that screwed up everything, especially in urban areas, is 'facilitating traffic', making them move as fast as possible. The opposite is much better: make it hard to go faster than a bicylce, that should be the speed limit. There is research that says that in areas where 25 years ago kids could move freely around the house at age 5, now it's age 9 or 10. That's 5 extra years of TV and video games. And fat.

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fleam on October 2, 2006 - 9:51pm

Cobblestones are definatly not ADA compliant! Not those bulgy ones I walked on in Germany anyway. But, supposedly they're really good for horses, allow horses' hooves to get good traction even in the wet. While still allowing most humans to walk along OK.

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expat on October 3, 2006 - 3:05am

Again, the differences between here and the mid-Atlantic play a role. It is not that common to see plants growing between the stones in my experience (this includes my driveway, my sidewalk, and a large number of other sidewalks, parking lots, and streets).

I think there are two different explanations for this -

The German brick paving style is very, very tight (though obviously not waterproof) - water does not soak through well at all (though there are designs for parking which are intended to allow maybe 50%-80% of the space to be used for plants - in a sense, these create a hardened lawn parking space)
Germany simply has a less aggressive environment for plants, along with tmperate climate

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mjacobspaj on October 2, 2006 - 11:13pm

The expected life of paving is normally dependent on:

The paving base. Clays and soils containing organic matter are bad. They allow the base to slowly compress over time. Virginia, if I remember correctly, has a lot of clayey soils. Drainable gravels and sand, when well compacted, are very strong bases. Roads built on solid rock last the longest.
The size of the traffic that goes over the paving. Large vehicle like trucks damage the base and the paving materials far more than small vehicles.
The weather. Freeze thaw cycles and de-icing materials such as salt can deteriorate a road surface very quickly.
and finally high traffic volume of traffic also increases wear-and-tear.

I suspect that German paving stones last well because of good base preparation and favorable traffic characteristics.

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expat on October 3, 2006 - 3:11am

Yes, the soils around Northern Virginia tend to have a very definite clay layer a couple of feet down, whereas the soils in this region of the Rhine Valley tend to have a sand layer.

Though the truck part seems to be obviously true, it is surprising to see how well different parking lots hold up under the 18 wheel (more like 12 wheel, but still the same size tractor trailer) trucks - possibly, that section of the parking lot is built to higher standards, or the trucks drive carefully, to reduce the impact. Or simply a couple of trucks a day doesn't really play a role.

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AlanfromBigEasy on October 2, 2006 - 11:33pm

Felicity Street in New Orleans is two blockes from my home and is cobblestone, still in good condition (one can see the two block section where they took up the streetcar tracks and laid new stones). Smoother than the Euro version, made from stones brought in as ballast from urban legend. As were the granite curbs in front of my house.

My street, St. Andrew, is 28 feet wide (~8.3 m), one way, with cars parked on both sides. The speed limit of 25 mph (40 kph)and common sense keeps traffic slower than that :-)

Narrow streets with rare off-street parking also keep urban density high. More area for people & parks & green, less for autos.

Best Hopes,

Alan

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241 comments on DrumBeat: October 2, 2006

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“If kindness and comfort are, as I suspect, the results of an energy surplus, then, as the supply contracts, we could be expected to start fighting once again like cats in a sack.”

—George Monbiot