Some cycnical people might be tempted to suggest that the civil war isn't something entirely outside US control of course.

But I'd agree you (and we) shouldn't be participating in it - its just a shame we started it in the first place.

I'd also note the criticism you make of "that world" apply equally to us in the west as well - in fact I think we've probably spent a lot more time killing each other over the last 1200 years than they have...

Ditto Big Gav's comments.

To be fair to the Iraqis it is worth pointing out that
some aspects of ethnic tension and the civil war are a direct result of Western policies that led to the formation of present day Iraq.

A brief reveiw from Wiki:

"Iraq was carved out of the Ottoman Empire by the French and British as agreed in the Sykes-Picot Agreement. On 11 November 1920 it became a League of Nations mandate under British control with the name "State of Iraq".

The British government laid out the political and constitutional framework for Iraq's government. Britain imposed a Hâshimite monarchy on Iraq and defined the territorial limits of Iraq without taking into account the aspirations of the different ethnic and religious groups in the country, in particular those of the Kurds to the north. Britain had to put down a major revolt against its policies between 1920 and 1922. During the revolt, Britain used phosphorus bombs against Kurdish villagers. Legal experts consider phosphorus bombs chemical weapons."

So much for all the railing against Saddam gassing the Kurds to put them in their place.

Phosphorous is an incendiary weapon, used for marking targets and smokescreens.  You can use it against personnel and it is extremely terrifying.  Chemical weapons are ussually considered the nerve agents blister agents, choking gases and a few others.  The concept is they don't harm you through kinetic or thermal energy but through interruption of organ or cellular sytems at the chemical level.  Willy Pete is a nasty SOB though, and I am not advocating its use on civilians only arguing the difference.

Although did the British have bombers in 1920-22?

Wikipedia is written by anyone with an internet hookup.  Lots of great information marbled with disinformation and mistakes.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200511/s1508598.htm

here is an article on WP use.

White phosphorous is often used as an incendiary weapon, but  it serves well enough as a lethal purely chemical burn agent by creating phosphoric acid in the skin, and the smoke is used as a primarily nonlethal chemical weapon at high concentrations - it's used in Iraq to flush out tunnels.

They had these aircraft before 1918.

If Phosphorous isn't bad enough, mustard gas was also used on the Kurds by the RAF during the 20's - 30's.
"Although did the British have bombers in 1920-22?"

I've read accounts of the Brits experimenting with bomb throwers in 1914 (and they were very pleased with the results).  I have no idea how the Brits delivered whatever chemical weapons they may have used, but it doesn't seem like planes were necessary to accomplish the task.    

Someone told me the British merely used teargas and he cited some declassified internal documents that certainly made it seem like this is all it was.  Am I being duped here?  What is the historical real deal?
My understanding is the British both had (primitive) bombers and used mustard gas (plenty of that left from World War 1).

Winston Churchill was actually behind the exercise, which has led plenty of people to compare Saddam to Churchill...

While you can doubt Wikipedia, it is no different to any other publication at the end of the day - history is rewritten again and again - and biased reporting and propaganda are just as likely to appear in the Washington Times or on Fox News (or Prensa Latina or the World Socialist website if you want to go the other way) as they are on Wikipedia (which at least tries to be objective and has accompanying debate and citations with each article).

Here's some history from a Kurdish web site, who presumably don't have any ideological axe to grind with the British nowadays.

The Kingdom of Kurdistan did not last long, thanks to the British Royal Air Force acting on behalf of a puppet government in Baghdad. The British were not much kinder to the Kurds. It is wrongly preserved that the first regime that used poison gases against Kurds was Saddam Hussein's government. This is wrong. British were the first regime to gas Kurds in South Kurdistan.

In this book, 'Deterring Democracy', Noam Chomsky describes British rule in South Kurdistan as follows: [1]

As Secretary of State at the War Office in 1919, Churchill was approached by the RAF Middle East Command for permission to use chemical weapons 'against recalcitrant Arabs as experiment.' Churchill authorized the experiment, dismissing objections:

I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gases; gases can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected.

Churchill added: 'we cannot in any circumstances acquiesce in the non utilization of any weapons which are available to procure a speedy termination of the disorder which prevails on the frontier.' Chemical weapons were merely 'the application of Western science to modern warfare.'

Churchill was in favour of using air power and poison gas against 'uncivilized tribes' and 'recalcitrant Arabs' i.e. Kurds and Afghans [2]. Not surprisingly, in the 1990s, William Waldegrave, who was in charge of Prime Minister John Major's 'open government' initiative, ordered the removal from the Public Record Office of 'files detailing how British troops had used poison gas against Iraqi dissidents including Kurds in 1919 [2].


In this way, a people who wished to run their own affairs were oppressed to the limit of genocide. Their King was undermined by the mighty British forces and an 'imported' King from totally different culture was forced upon them.

The history has been written with the blood of the oppressed by the oppressing people. When the writings are still wet, the concept of `civilised and uncivilised' people emerges. The more oppressed people bleed, the larger the history books get. The history fails to report commensurately the suffering of the oppressed. In this way, we build, what we term, 'civilisation'.


Presumably the Chomsky book has a whole lot of citations if he follows his normal practice.

You can find plenty more on the topic at Google.

As John Fortune would say describing Churchill's enthusiasm for gassing Kurds, "Another first for British civilisation". The only reason we didn't gas the Kurds was because we couldn't get the gas bombs to fit to the bombers correctly. Nice to know that us Brits would do something that Hitler had second thoughts about (Hitler had nerve gas but didn't use it because he thought the Allies had nerve gas and would respond in kind).

There was a Bremner, Bird and Fortune program called "Between Iraq and a Hard Place" several years ago where it compared 1920's British policy to Iraq and the 2000's US policy to Iraq. Very funny and very sad at the same time. A very British perspective on Iraq.