Well, those wind turbines in place today, producing electricity today, have one charming advantage - they actually exist. The same applies to PV systems.

Sometimes, I wonder how lead times work into this debate - what is the lead time for a nuclear reactor? How long before the unspecified wish today becomes electricity?

Wind and solar do not share one of the deepest flaws surrounding new nuclear plants - wind and solar can be installed now, in increments. Nuclear means waiting - and when the question is how do you provide power today, or next month, or next year, for all their clearly defined limitations, wind and solar at least are producing electricity. Nuclear fails that test utterly.

And let's not even get into the whole future aspect either - no one is seriously concerned about dealing with worn out turbines or dead PV panels either.

Lead time for a 3rd gen reactor is supposed to be 5 years.

But the Finns, who are building the first one, are as much as 18 months behind, AFAIK.

So say 5 years+ 6 months, plus site planning.  In the UK a public planning enquiry (to make a like for like comparison with wind) which can add up to 3 years (but say 18 months).

I would say, realistically, on a crash programme, 8 years.  The French (EDF) at Flamanville, an existing site, are talking 2014 for commercial power from their first 3rd Gen reactor.

There is as yet no solution to the UK waste problem. Private industry has said it will not build these things without:

  •  a guaranteed power price (this is why British Energy went broke, and nearly had to be renationalised)
  • a long term solution to the waste problem

The former is no different from wind power (except: if we impute a CO2 price of £85/ tonne, £311/ tonne of carbon, which is what the Stern Report suggests, then the economics of both look good against fossil fuel).

Nuclear waste repository is a show stopper.

If we ran a centralised electricity system where the financial risk is passed off to the consumer, and if the nuclear reactor industry, the utility, and the regulator work closely together, then we would be France.  And we might get a sizeable nuclear reactor programme at a reasonable price.

So far, none of the above exist in the UK.  Nor would it be possible to renationalise the electricity supply system-- the Torys very specifically made sure that would be practically impossible for a future Labour Government (because Labour threatened to do just that).

After Seabrook, I don't think too many entities, corporate or government, will want to dive into that battle anytime soon. And if they did, there would certainly be no guarantees of eventual victory, no matter what the time line or costs.
What the US utility execs have said is that they will go for nuclear, if they get a guaranteed subsidy for the power (which the Bush Energy Act gives them) and comfort on the waste disposal issue.

TXU has applied for nuclear.  Given that they have also applied to build 10 coal plants, I am cheering their nuclear efforts on.  Once those nuclear plants are switched on, they will be run, and will displace fossil fueled plant.

I think some US states (like Texas) will prove to be much more nuclear friendly than New England or New York.

How long does it take until the holding tanks of those reactors are full and what will they do if there is still no processing plant built anywhere?

We have heard the nuclear argument before. We know what is missing. Nothing has changed with regard to processing and disposal.

Dry cask storage could hold spent fuel for decades, and it's only a few centuries before it's less radioactive than uranium ore.

Storage would be considerably less complicated due to the properties of thorium.  Th-232 captures a neutron and (through two beta decays) becomes U-233.  It takes another FOUR neutron captures to turn U-233 into U-237, which can decay into neptunium; another neutron capture is required to create Np-238 which decays to plutonium.  To get there, all the intermediates have to avoid being fissioned by any of the neutrons.  The consequence is that the spent fuel of a thorium reactor would have only minuscule amounts of plutonium.

Thanks for the rundown.

Nuclear is an alternative - with extemely heavy political brakes on. Until people can agree on what to do with the waste and that Pu is not evil if managed properly and fuel recycling is established (which would be economically devastating for Uranium mining...) nuclear is not a viable option.

And now we factor in the growth and projected price slump of PV... by the time nuclear lifts a leg, PV and conservation have run circles around the block.

In a year or two PV will deliver the equivalent of one nuclear reactor a year. At a 30% growth rate that looks like follows:

  1. 1.0 reactor, cumulative 2.0 reactors
  2. 1.3 reactors, cumulative 3.3 reactors
  3. 1.7 reactors, cumulative 5.0 reactors
  4. 2.2 reactors, cumulative 7.2 reactors
  5. 2.9 reactors, cumulative 10.1 reactors
  6. 3.7 reactors, cumulative 13.8 reactors
  7. 4.8 reactors, cumulative 18.6 reactors
  8. 6.2 reactors, cumulative 24.8 reactors
  9. 3.3 reactors, cumulative 28.1 reactors
  10. 8.2 reactors, cumulative 36.3 reactors
  11. 10.6 reactors, cumulative 46.9 reactors
  12. 13.8 reactors, cumulative 60.7 reactors
  13. 17.9 reactors, cumulative 78.6 reactors

Now add another 50 reactors saved by conservation measures.
Is the world going to build 130 new reactors until 2020?
And replacing the old ones is not even factored in, yet.

Which politician wants to run on the nucleat ticket?

Two years back I was earning 10K/year, last year it was 20K and today I'm making 40. I find it self-evindent that in just 10 years I will be making $4.096 mln/year, which in 20 years will grow to well above 4 billion a year.
Can you give a source for those numbers? This table...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics#Worldwide_installed_photovoltaic_totals

...shows what looks like about 1GWE (peak power) installed wordwide in 2005. That's about 1 reactor at peak, or maybe 30% of a reactor allowing for daily cycles and seasonality.

Are you numbers peak output or annual average?

Note that this source http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/electricity.html gives world electricity consumption of 14800E9 kWh in 2003. There are about 8000 hours in a year, so let's say a nice round CONSTANT 24/7/365 load of 2000 gigawatts. So by 2020, on your projections, solar PV could be producing 4% of the 2003 average demand (or 2% of 2020 demand on the EIA's estimate). Assuming the solar cells never age, of course. And assuming the supply chain doesn't get bottlenecked somewhere.

My rule of thumb for electricity prices (wholesale, distribution adds another 4 cents/kwhr) is (US dollars) for new capacity:

  • nuclear - 8 cents/ kwhr (case can be made long term why that might fall towards 7 cents)

  • onshore wind - 4-9 cents

  • offshore wind - 5-11 cents

  • CCGT - 4 cents (depends massively on gas price)

  • Coal - c. 5 cents (higher capital cost than CCGT, but much lower fuel cost)

  • IGCC Coal - c. 6 cents

  • solar - 15 cents (in some applications)

Carbon sequestration will add 1-5 cents/ kwhr to coal and CCGT.

You can see that no one would build anything other than coal and (a little) gas turbine power unless you have carbon pricing.

In practice no one source solves it.  You can see how the UK can get to 20% wind, but its hard to see, practically, without new power storage technologies, how we would get to more than that.

Thanks for numbers.  Very useful.

I assume this is total Capital construction and operating costs to provide electricity at rates you quote.  If your costs are only construction than the monthly consumable cost on coal and NG are variables that will increase in the future.

In any case what the costs don't include are the carbon implications (that you show need to be included for parity with wind) but also the unseen costs of obtaining the coal and NG supply.  IMHO one of the reasons coal is so cheap is that the environmental impacts of coal mining are delayed way into the future.  Before 1981 or '82 strip mining operations had 7 years to return the land to similar vegetation as before mining.  Under the Reagan administration that time frame was delayed to (I think) 20 years.  This means a lot of natural weathering can occur on the spoils piles before they need to be re-vegetated. I remember this because I interviewed at a company that had a huge business in using plants to reclaim disturbed land.  They went bankrupt 5 years or so later because their entire business model disappeared.

The reason the 7 years was tough on strip miners is that you need specialized plants to be the first communities to establish.  Lots of heavy metals and acids that require phytosequestration to clean up the soil allowing conventional plants to grow.  After twenty years the soils are leeched and lots of stuff will grow.  The problem is, where does the leech water go?  It may run off or it may be contained and go down.  In all cases it is going to impact aquafers negatively.  These costs are then picked up by entities other than the miners. This keeps the cost of coal cheap but adds to the other problems of burning coal

Don't get me wrong, I think coal mining is a valid way to provide energy.  I am just of the opinion that it can be done in a much less ecologically destructive way, albeit at a higher cost.  But the rules and framework have to apply (and apply to all) or there is no incentive for the operations that want to do things right.  They have a lot of added costs without being able to ask more for the coal.  More likely the price for coal will go down if we allow the "most efficient" ways of extraction to be used without regard to down stream consequences.

Those numbers are very 'rough and ready'!!!

(some of the people who post around here who are pro nuke use much lower numbers 4 cents even).

A massive factor is capital cost-- even in a gas fired CCGT, where fuel is half the lifecycle cost, capital costs matter.  Change the real interest rate (interest rate after inflation) and nuclear and wind look a lot worse, or a lot better.

This is why gas turbines took off in the 90s.  Gas was cheap, and capital costs were the most important costs.  There was also an important efficiency shift (the Combined Cycle bit) which raised efficiencies from c. low 40%s to nearly 60% now.  Gas is however no longer cheap.  

Conversely nuclear plants wound up being delayed by several years, and in the high inflation/ high real interest rate environment of the late 70s and 80s, that meant their total costs were several times initial estimates.

If we can assume a world where nuclear plants really do get built on budget, in 5 years, then nuclear will look a lot cheaper but you will still have the waste problem and cost.

Good point about the true cost of coal.  I think most US power coal now comes from the Powder River Basin Wyoming, which has low sulphur coal and high productivity open-pit mining.  One of the big costs is then rail transport, whereas ocean transport of Australian coal is relatively cheap.

I think Appalachian coal is a decreasing fraction of coal consumption except for coking coal and for power stations that are very close to source.

The reality is, ex environmental considerations, any US utility (virtually) would rather build a coal fired station.  The risk is low, the technology proven, and the economics straightforward.

I think Appalachian coal is a decreasing fraction of coal consumption except for coking coal and for power stations that are very close to source.

I live near the Ohio River at the WV/ Ohio border and I was confused when I first moved here by the fact that coal moves in both directions on the Ohio River.  There must be at least 5 to 10 coal barges with 12 full containers each going downriver from WV daily.  This really surprised me at first until it was explained to me that Iowa coal is brought upriver to WV to mix this expensive low sulfur coal with the inexpensive high sulfur WV coal so WV and Ohio coal burning plants can use their cheap coal and not have to use expensive scrubbers.  Also WV coal is shipped to Iowa and other places and mixed with their coal in plants there.  Cost/ benefit ratios force everyone to keep their sulfur emissions right at the legal limit even if it creates absurdities like shipping dirty WV coal west where coal is plentiful and cleaner.

Hey Phineas,
Whatever happened to Free-Wheelin Franklin & Fat Freddy?
Conversely nuclear plants wound up being delayed by several years, and in the high inflation/ high real interest rate environment of the late 70s and 80s, that meant their total costs were several times initial estimates.

In countries without such activist capital sabotage, you have very inexpensive nuclear power, and it is good to remember that nuclear plants have operational lifetimes of over 40 years, often 60.
If we can assume a world where nuclear plants really do get built on budget, in 5 years, then nuclear will look a lot cheaper but you will still have the waste problem and cost.

But nuclear waste costs almost nothing to manage. You stick it in a pool for a couple of years then stick it in concrete in a parking lot. The largest cost that US nuclear plants have to pay in regards to waste is the tax for the geologic repository that is still not built.

PS yes this is total cost, so the discount factor you use (to compare the high capital costs of a wind station with the future fuel costs of a gas fired station) is massively important.

Once the thing is built, and once the debt raised to finance it is paid off or discharged, then the operating costs are massively cheap.

This is especially true for nuclear (pure maintenance and fuel costs probably 1-2 cents/kwhr) and wind (free fuel, minimal maintenance, complete replacement every 20 years).

But is also true of coal (probably the operating costs are c. 2.5-3 cents/ kwhr).

You say that there are a log of heavy metals in the remanders from coal mining.  Since to my knowledge coal is a result of vegetation decomposition (under pressure?), and heavy metals are generally toxic to most cells, whence the heavy metals?
CA is building 3GW solar, geothermal etc..

The economics argument is useless. We are talking about politics here. If the voter votes for it, clean energy is going to be built, even if it costs 10 cents more per kWh.

I certainly can afford to pay that much. So can many others.

"The economics argument is useless. We are talking about politics here. If the voter votes for it, clean energy is going to be built, even if it costs 10 cents more per kWh.

I certainly can afford to pay that much. So can many others."

Unless they ban coal fired generation or impose carbon taxes, the voter has nothing to do with it.  It boils down to a straight economic evaluation.  Utilities have to install the most cost effective option, which will usually be coal.

Also, overwhelmingly, people will not willingly pay a single penny more per kwh, if they have a cheaper (dirtier) option.  Did you notice how poorly the green energy companies did trying to sell their higher priced, cleaner electricity?

I am a big fan of a carbon tax, but I see no chance of it happening in the US.

The lead time for this project will also measure in quite a few years. There are no easy options for obtaining our energy.