The Oil Drum | DrumBeat: November 12, 2006

256 comments on DrumBeat: November 12, 2006

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totoneila on November 12, 2006 - 10:13am

Hello Leanan,

Thxs for responding. I did start a blog back in March, but I think something is wrong with the setup, and I gave up trying to figure it out. I think it is online, but I never got any visitors or comments.

http://arehumanssmarterthanyeast.blogspot.com/

I was up last night composing that Spider post brainstorm--so I gotta get some shuteye soon--back later. If it is off-topic or too long, feel free to delete. I apologize, but I am not a computer guru like many here.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

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Leanan on November 12, 2006 - 10:38am

LOL! I was hoping you would call your blog "Are Humans Smarter Than Yeast?" :-)

It looks really good to me. I love that template.

Don't expect to get visitors or comments right away. It takes awhile to build an audience. And you have to promote your blog. Also known as "blogwhoring." Put the URL in your message board and e-mail sigs. Post links and excerpts here when you've posted something new. Post comments to related blogs; people will click on your name and follow it back to your blog.

You also have to update regularly, or your audience will wander away. One thing you might consider is posting selected articles from that Yahoogroup you're always quoting from. (Get permission from the original author, if required.) It's hard to find stuff on Yahoogroups. If you post a few gems (properly credited, of course), you could bring attention to stuff most of won't ever see otherwise. You'd also be able to post the URL of the blog entry later, if you wanted to refer someone to it. You'd be creating your own archives, so to speak. Even if no one comments, it will be useful.

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oldhippie on November 12, 2006 - 9:56pm

Bob Shaw's beer pipelines work for me, even if I doubt such is practical. Glad I read it, glad I read it here.

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Leanan on November 12, 2006 - 10:45pm

I'm not saying I don't want Bob to post here. It's a matter of length. Especially for the first post in a thread.

In the other thread (about the future of TOD), some were asking for a software-enforced length limit. Rather than do that, I would just ask people to exercise some self-restraint. It's just basic etiquette. You don't hog the bandwidth at someone else's blog.

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ThatsItImout on November 13, 2006 - 4:01am

"In the other thread (about the future of TOD), some were asking for a software-enforced length limit."

The length issue is of some interest to me. Does regular line text actually consume that much bandwidth? This is one reason I will give links to photos for example, rather than trying to insert the photo into the post...because I know that graphics and photos do consume more bandwidth and memory.

On the other hand, I love TOD because it is not a "sound bite" site. The comments boards after news stories on Yahoo and others seem to bring out the screamers who have one sentence of sarcasm, but no real discussion. That is one reason I came to TOD, because the depth of commentary is deeper and more involved, which of course, takes a few more lines of writing (and a bit more effort of thought!)

I just posted a long post on the "Declaration of Independence" story for example. There were only 12 posts when I got there, and the story had been up for 12 hours, so I didn't feel that I would "use up" the bandwidth by going a bit long.....and it is all line text, no photos or graphics. The other issue is that if I post twelve different times at a paragraph each, I am using as much space as one 12 paragraph post, am I not?

This all brings back what is for me a growing sense of disappointment in the internet as a tool for exchange of information and discussion. Only a few years ago, we were promised an age in which graphics, still and motion pictures, music, and voice discussion would soon be available to all. Instead, we are finding that an old fashioned letter by mail is much more efficient for communication, and that "bandwidth" is becoming a jealously protected commodity. The internet, like radio and television before it, is becoming nothing more than a giant bilboard for folks peddling junk (I can't help but notice that the sponsers and advertisers always seem to have bandwidth to put up flashing moving graphics on every site :-(
Television was once called "a vast wasteland". The internet improves on that, by being a "vast interactive wasteland".

Roger Conner known to you as ThatsItImout

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Leanan on November 13, 2006 - 8:25am

Does regular line text actually consume that much bandwidth?

No. I was using word in its figurative sense, not the literal technical term.

People get upset when there's a huge long comment high up in a new thread. It's sort of the blog equivalent of hogging the conversation at a party.

dKos handled this for awhile by "windowing" long comments. If your comment was too long, only the top few lines would show, in a little window. People had to scroll to see the rest.

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oldhippie on November 13, 2006 - 3:34pm

The windowing for long posts sounds OK to me.

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airdale on November 12, 2006 - 11:54am

Bob Shaw,

TOD would IMO, just not be the same without Totoneila's wild and crazy ideas expressed in Drum Beats.

I repeat what I said earlier in the Heretical Topic debate.
Those who don't wish to read the PO offbeat text can just decide to not click on Drum Beats. This is a choice.

Wild and crazy ideas. All this is needed for combating the effects of PO. Riding steel pipes? Who would have thought?

As to the roads self destructing? Without major traffic on them how will they deteriorate? Granted asphalt will crumble eventually with extreme weather but concrete should last a long time. Myself I can remember railroad maintenance vehicles that were propelled by pumping handlebars. Now I see this has changed to pickups with a set of rails. There are several here in town who use these and work for the railroads. They just pull a lever after straddling the rails and with the rear wheels lightly touching the rails go flying right down the tracks.

As a kid in the country we all played on the tracks and trestles. We sometimes hopped on the trains as they moved slowly by and hitched a ride. Rails used to be a familiar part of our country side. Without train traffic those rails should last for an enormous time and might become a viable means of travel to far off places, maybe with a sail or spinnaker set out or a mule pulling it along.

airdale

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PaulS on November 12, 2006 - 4:46pm

Where I live even (cement based) concrete roads, especially the smaller ones, are fairly fragile. Some of the smaller streets that were done in concrete 30 or 40 years ago are a mess needing constant repairs. They're not good for the bicycling advocated on this thread because they're best suited to wide, fat, low pressure tires that exert massive amounts of exhausting drag.

This probably owes much to winter, trees, and rain, three items scarce and not well-understood in some parts of the country, such as much of California and all of the desert Southwest.

Winter causes frost heaving, which in just a decade or two can cause misalignments sufficient to regularly pinch-flat low-drag bicycle tires, and eventually breaks up the slabs. Growing tree roots lift up the slabs, misaligning, tilting, and then breaking them. And rain in sloped areas eventually undermines the roadbed, again shifting, misaligning, and eventually breaking up the slabs. Streets paralleling contours eventually become quite tilted, and have to be dug out and redone. (IIRC some interpretations of the Disability Act require sidewalks to be dug out and redone if the sideways tilt is a barely detectable 2%, which can be attained in just a few years.)

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Leanan on November 12, 2006 - 5:55pm

Very true. Concrete roads are viewed as a huge mistake here in the northeast. They seemed like a good idea at the time. Now, we are ripping them up whenever possible, and replacing them with flexible pavements (asphalt).

But they are still being used in the south and west, where it's warmer and drier.

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Dragonfly41 on November 12, 2006 - 9:15pm

Hey...hey...don't forget about the Midwest...Missy!!! We are all asphalt...all the time.

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Leanan on November 12, 2006 - 10:50pm

Are you? I drove across Ohio on the Turnpike last spring. It must have cost hundreds of millions of dollars, widening I-90 across the entire state, tearing down all those perfectly good bridges to make room for the extra lanes.

And it looked like they were putting in PCC pavements. I guess it could have been that new white asphalt, but I could swear I saw them putting rebar in.

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Dragonfly41 on November 13, 2006 - 12:06am

Oh....you're talking about the expansive highways that go on and on for eternity between population centers...ya...those are probably concrete. Get into the metro areas and we use asphalt.

BTW...quit being so smart and observant when catching my mistakes. At other times...go ahead.

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beggar on November 12, 2006 - 7:24pm

Paul, here in Minneapolis I ride year-round on Organicengines SUV's. The 20" tires give about 2inches in diameter, and are inflated to between 85 and 110 pounds.

I can ride over turf, gravel, and through slush and snow on the city streets.

Changing our habitual thinking about how we move around every day is one of the biggest challenges we face. Biking takes more time and energy, and we sweat more when we travel actively.

Workbikes, trikes, quads, electric assist, motorcycles and small vehicles can significantly expand our options, but right now we design our lives around the car and petroleum, upon which we depend for all that we recieve.

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airdale on November 12, 2006 - 9:55pm

I was speaking primarily of the interstate highway system, state roads and perhaps some county roads. I was not advocating subdivision and city roads.

I can remember when the interstate hwy system started and was being built. Even with huge amounts of traffic I didn't see any replacement being done for many many years. I know for I drove I-70 and I-55 in St. Louis to downtown and back to the burbs for over 25 yrs. Each work day.

I didn't see the deterations spoken of above. Trees? Nope. Rain? Designed for. Winter frost heave? Nope.

As to asphalt? Here heat is the big problem and huge trucks. A person installs an asphalt driveway he can expect very good performance with minimal maintenance IF it is laid correctly.
If its a cheap shoddy job then its worthless. Same with concrete. Had to be on superior fill and not something just hauled in, thrown down and compacted a few times.

Besides how will it deteriotate if no vehicles are using it due to the absence of fuel to run them with?

The blacktop past my farm has been there for 5 yrs , when a new layer was last placed. Its in fine shape still. Its a state road as well.

The northeast with its problems? Yes I agee to that situation. Frankly though I intend to stay just where I am.

BTW as a youth we rode a team and wagon to town. The roads were gravel. When vehicles came along we just drove on the gravel roads. In my county the gravel roads were replaced only about 10 yrs ago(in total but yet a few gravel roads still exist). 25 yrs ago all the county back roads were still gravel and we ran a road grader down them ocassionally.

Worked then just fine.

When driving just the other day to an auction I went thru some Amish country where they use a lot of horse and buggies. I came up behind one just walking his single mare along at a slow pace. He and his family were in no particuliar hurry. A few Amish boys were walking not far ahead. This reminded me of my childhood and how we walked behind the wagon to town for the once Saturday 'trade day'. Its was nice, pleasant and a good outing with exercise thrown in. Seeing friends and neighbors and passing the time to chat.

Those days disappeared in fumes of burnt oil, skid marks and mans great hurry to go somewhere in a big ass hurry.

I do miss it. I wonder if I will see it again?

I suggest that someone looking for an alternate skillset might consider harness making. Buggy building. Raising draft horses. Mules,etc.

The Amish have all these skills and more. Living around them shows one that selfsustained living is truly possible.

Many do not have telephone. Many do not have electricity. Many use a horse and buggy and put up corn and hay by hand and with a wagon and team , the old timey ways.

airdale

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phineas gage on November 12, 2006 - 11:24pm

Airdale,
excellent point about the Amish. I've often wondered why there's all this talk about how a sustainable community might work- as if there were no such community extant today. The strictest Amish sects are still doin' it like the world was 300 years ago before fossil fuels. Why re-invent the wheel?

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Leanan on November 12, 2006 - 11:57pm

Most Amish are not as independent of the modern world as commonly believed. They usually don't own tractors, but they rent them. They'll hire drivers and rent vans to take their families grocery shopping and such. They use modern fertilizers and pesticides. They often own kerosene refrigerators and generators to power agricultural equipment. They don't own phones, but they borrow the use of them from neighbors. Or they do own a phone, but it can't be kept in the house. They go to modern doctors and hospitals for health care. They are connected to the larger economy, buying supplies and selling their products. Those plain black garments are often made of polyester.

Perhaps most unsustainable is their rapid population growth rate.

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Dan Ur on November 13, 2006 - 3:15am

leanan you seem to be trying ot reinvent the amish too. think this way for a second.

They have lived for 300 years, on the edge of their world, bit by bit, tick by tock they seap into ours and we into theirs. The idea is not that they are not, or we are not, but that we both together are.

Think about that first get back to me if I am wrong.
Charles E. Owens Jr.
Author at Large aka Dan Ur
A large bear of a man, flexible and fit, just like the bear he is.

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phineas gage on November 13, 2006 - 8:34am

True, most Amish have one foot in the old world and one in the new, but there are those who still do it the old way. The strictest sects in NE Ohio still use horse driven plows, will not step foot in a car nor wear any synthetic clothes. There's been a debate recently about whether to force them to accept reflective plastics on their buggies. The strictest Amish will not permit them and are more prone to get struck by a speeding car or truck at night

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airdale on November 13, 2006 - 9:44am

Each 'community' or possibly can be called large group, is different. Some do use autos and such. Yet there are groups here in Ky who live very much like we did many years ago.

I think each assortment can make their own rules depending on the leadership of each.

I also believe Ky has had a large influx because they wearied of Pennsylvania and we leave them alone here. We mostly respect their culture and let them abide by their ways.

If you want so work done you will find that the Amish and Mennonites will do very high quality work and will never cheat you. They will not work tobacco though.

I have never seen them smoke or chew , though they may when not in public. I see them everyday and they always are plentiful at auctions. Most buy old unused horse drawn farm equipment and repair it to new condition.

They do not speak much with the rest of us. Seem rather shy but they do not foster an arrogant or egotistical attitude at all. They are fine folks IMO who wish to go their own way and be allowed to without a lot of interference. In Ky they seem to fine a good atmosphere. At least in the western and central parts that I know well and travel thru. Union county in Ky. has some of the ones who I observed putting up corn the old fashioned way and plowing with teams.

In my opinion they seem to have a patriarchial form of self rule.The women are extremely quiet and unobstrusive. Long skirts and bonnets just like my granny wore.

Never see them driving at night. They try to get home before it gets dark. They never drive on major roads that I have seen if they can avoid them.

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Leanan on November 13, 2006 - 10:22am

Yes, each community can set its own rules.

They are not anti-technology per se. Rather, they consider how technology will affect the community.

For example, they want to keep separate from the rest of the world, so most refuse to be connected to the grid. But they can use diesel-powered generators. They can't have phones in the house, but they can have them in sheds outside the house, where they are inconvenient to use, and where no one will hear incoming calls.

The reason some communities allow tractors as long as they are attached to a horse is to prevent greed. They don't want a farmer to be tempted to buy up all the land and outcompete his neighbors.

In cases where technology is needed - someone is too disabled to plow the old-fashioned way, for instance - it is encouraged.

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