234 comments on DrumBeat: November 15, 2006
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GAIA Host Collective
'And then there was Iraq. There is much to say about America's most disastrous folly since Vietnam, but in some ways the most telling indictment is the response of ordinary Iraqis. As Richardson explains:
They find the claims that the United States is occupying Iraq to defend New York and deploying an army to import democracy to be so implausible that they do not believe them. Instead, they believe the claims of those who say the US Army is a self-interested army of occupation interested only in dominating the region and exploiting its oil wealth.
"In effect," she concludes, "they find al-Qaeda's propaganda more credible than ours."'
From the end of a review at http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19657
A thought I have long held on the issue of energy security for the US: US miltary budget is just shy of $500 billion per annum, a large part of which appears to be for sustaining a sufficiently powerful military to protect US energy interests in the Middle East.
What would the impact on the price of oil be if the US were to reallocate 10% of that annual budget to the deployment of renewable energy schemes? $50 billion would build a lot of wind and solar farms and could also be used to fund wave and tidal projects that private equity will not touch for a host of reasons (technological uncertainty, long payback periods, planning concerns, etc), as well as providing a huge source of R&D funding for new technologies. By virtue of the fact that the funding would come from re-allocated federal budgets it would not be necessary to demonstrate private equity style rates of return. In theory it would not be necessary to show a demonstrable "return" at all.
It is estimated that there is in the region of 50,000 MW of tidal and wave resource on the west coast of North America, enough to provide for pretty much all current power consumption west of the Rockies. An example of the type of project that could be contemplated can be found at http://www.tidalelectric.com/ (although I personally do not believe that this would be the most economically efficient way to harness tidal power, it has the benefit of being sufficiently low-tech to be demonstrably workable)
Clearly such projects would not be like-for-like replacements for the majority of petroleum-based product consumption, but they would provide a huge future resource base for electricity-based replacements to the existing FF-based transport infrastructure.
Prioritization as it relates to DOD spending versus DOE spending is a topic I have touched on numerous occasion but keep in mind that Peak Oil is a Liquid Transportation Fuels crisis, not an electrical one.
Here's the tongue in cheek Oreo Cookie example I use: http://youtube.com/watch?v=-YzPuCGShI8
Luckily, I'll have the chance to address the above in Washington next year.
This is a bit misleading IMO. If for example we replace enough natural gas from electricity generation, it can be easily used directly to fuel the cars. The technology is there and can be applied to existing vehicles (at the cost of some 1-2000$, likely to drop with mass production).
Displaced coal can be liquified or maybe better - gasified with higher efficiency to be used the same way as NG.
The truth is that PO promises to be a crisis, because all of the fossil fuels seem to be reaching a logistic maximums for various reasons and to different extent. These maximums will likely convergate in time when various replacement processes start to be implemented. Another consequence is that the severity of PO will vary with the location, because coal and NG are not that fungible as oil. Coutries where coal or NG is still abundant or countries that rely on nuclear energy will be much better off.
It is very hard to build new gas docking terminal (NIMBYism and BANANA stuff)
BANANA is Build Absolutely Nothing Awfull Near Anyone.
Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything!
If you take ALL the natural gas that was used (in 2005) for electrical production and used it in place of gasoline, you would displace only 37.5% of all the gasoline used. Furthermore, I drive a NG car periodically. They burn NG or gasoline but not "both" so when you run out of NG (actually when the regulator cuts you off), unless you have some way to quick-connect a pressurized bottle of NG, you are stuck.
Our Hondas have a maximum fill pressure of 3200 psig. Our other larger vehicles have tanks pressures up to 3600 psig. Filling them is relatively simple with the quick connect system, but it is not fast. A near empty tank can take 20-40 minutes to fill to capacity with a large "fast" compressor station. Since you are compressing gas from a much lower "street pressure" to a much higher tank pressure, the compression causes the gas to heat. These compressors have a very large intercooler to drop the temperature back down to acceptable levels prior to filling the vehicle tank. Nonetheless, these tanks do get quite warm when filling. A "slow fill" system or systems with small intercoolers may take as long as eight hours to refill. Changes the experience of filling the tank to a "career."
Add to that the fact that electrical generation using natural gas primarily uses relatively new, high-efficiency simple cycle or combined cycle turbines that can only burn natural gas or distillate oil. So whatever gas you take away (and oil you save from automobiles) has to be made up by more oil use. These new simple-cycle CTs are much more efficient that just about any coal-plant except supercritical, double reheat EGUs with a nice cool lake for condenser water. And there aren't any coal-fired power plants that can match the current generation combined cycle CTs.
That's the principle behind IGCC...to gasify coal into a product that can be burned in a high-efficiency combined cycle CT that is more efficient than an equivalent coal-burner. You give up a substantial amount of the efficiency by using the coal's heating value to gasify it, but the operating at a net 40-45% efficiency compared to the more nominal 30-35% efficiency of a standard coal-plant may be worth the difference.
But the underlying point is that with 2% annual growth in various energy demands AND the need to change to a different distribution of fuels...well it's just not going to happen. Consider that without PO staring us in the face and we kept everything in it's current proportions (oil, gas, coal) that in 35 years we have to have the ability (and the infrastructure) to handle twice as much of EVERYTHING as we do now.
More over, the substitution of coal (or more clearly the liquifaction and gasification of coal) for other products we currently use won't be as much help as many think.
Thirty years ago, "we had" about 400 years of coal at the usage rate of the mid-1970s. Today we have between 250-275 years. Did we really use 125-150 years of coal in 35 years? Yes, mostly because we've doubled our rate of consumption and our estimates of the reserves (and their declining quality) have become more refined.
Currently, coal accounts for about 23% of our total energy use. With the combination of "normal growth" and susbstitution of coal products are we really likely to have enough coal for "hundreds of years?" Probably not.
Seamless transition between gas and gasoline is standard on the biogas cars sold in Sweden and its essentialy the same methane.
It would be a very good idea to build as manny nuclear powerplanst as you can and replace natural gas heating with heat pumps and any base load use of natural gas for electricity production.
Heat pumps only make sense for a portion of the US. Even with the higher COP that is possible with newer designs, they don't do well in cool moist winter environments. They spend too much time defrosting.
By seamless, do you mean that any vehicle is switchable between gasoline and methane? Do they have one injection system for gasoline and another for NG/methane?
The point I was making is that this is not a substitution. Robbing the NG from electric generation from high efficiency pre-mix NG turbines to burn in vehicles means that turbines must burn something else (distillate oil with diffusion combustion rather than pre-mix). Unless consumption is reduced, you end up with "no solution."
What about ground-exchange heat pumps?
"this is not a substitution. "
Any thoughts about substituting wind, and in the longer term solar, for coal and nat gas?
Only portions of the US have areas where wind is "reliable." It should be included in this mix, but you can't just turn the wind on. And as was demonstrated in CA this past summer and previously, heat waves tend to correspond with low wind just when you have the highest demand. CA's problems were also compounded by the NG compressor cooling issue.
As for solar, I think we are probably far enough along on higher efficiency PV cells that we should consider jumping forward with them. Solar thermal also has some promise in certain areas (e.g., Kramer Station in CA). A point worth considering about solar cells is that the higher efficiency cells require substantial initial energy input as well as fossil fuels. If we wait to long, solar will look like an alternative we wished we had taken and would then be tantilizingly "out of reach."
- An undersized geothermal heat pump (adequate for summer cooling load)
- A high efficiency condensing gas furnance (~94% AFUE but the c)
and3) A wood furnance with outside combustion air
as well as insulate & caulk/seal more.
She can "twitch between fuels". Currently a geothermal heat pump can probably supply all her heating down to 32-40F at the lowest cost (wood perhaps cheaper, but not dramatically). NG may be more expensive/BTU but not dramatically and the capital cost is much lower.
Wood is the emergency backup and potentially lowest cost but a hassle. Uneven heat as well w/o air circulation but when a blizzard hits, the grid goes down, it is good to have a pile of wood !
Alan
What went wrong? Were they unhappy overall - IOW, would they do it again?
The case for transitioning at least partially to gaseous fuels is not bad: we can obtain them from the ground, from coal, from biomass, we can even use electrolysis and mix the H2 in small proportions. The respective processes are much more efficient then turning them to liquids.
First a simple, high pressure quick connect would be possible for changing tanks, similar to how we currently fill these vehicles.
Second, a typical FRP tank (which is what our vehicles contain) take more vehicle volume than a gasoline tank. We can get about 200-250 miles per tankful. Even though methane is highly compressible (I mean that in the sense that it does not follow the ideal gas law), the combination of methane (at pressure) and tank weight required for a vehicle provides a limit to moving tanks around. You and I are not going to hoof one of these tanks around (even dividing the current single high pressure tank into two or three smaller tanks might make the individual tanks more manageable, though the total weight will increase and increases the number of connections required). Even an automatic "bottle replacement system" would require some sort of universal system for vehicles.
Third, bottle storage and inspection. It's one thing to have various LPG bottle redistribution points for gas grills and even for those systems that use a larger amount of LPG with larger truck transported replaceable bottles. But think of the footprint required for a typical "gas station" to store full, empty, and those bottles being refilled for the number vehicles served. Thats much different than underground storage tanks for liquid fuels.
Growth Rate Years Remaining
0% 90.4
2% 52.1
4% 39.0
VERY interesting for those that suppose that we can substitute (conversion losses like CTL up "consumption").
Renewables ARE needed !
Thanks,
Alan
At the end of the day, it will be easier and cheaper to convert one's F-150 to run on an EtOH blend with a smarter carb, then to try and change the entire motoring infrastructure.
And unlike the fossils, EtOH can be produced anywhere on the continent, from practically any carbonaceous material available.
Add conservation, electrification and other mitigation strategies to the mix and we should be able to keep up with a modest rate of decline.
Basic physics of moving mass does not change just because one changes fuel.
With infrastructure you might be able to produce EtOH anywherem but there are large swaths of the North American west that have low growth rate, limited biomass because they are high plains deserts. I just drove through the areas of Northern Colorado and across much of lower and middle Wyoming. There may be quite a number of gas and oil wells and much oil shale, but it's a fairly stark landscape most above 6,000 feet.
Down in Texas there's apparently 1000's of acres of mesquite that thrive in the low mositure environ and actually choke off the creation of natural water reservoirs.
There's been no way to harvest the mesquite until just recently as an outfit down there have created the first ever designated mesquite harvester.
The potential exists (and groups are working on it as we speak) to turn this unique and most unanticipated feedstock source into ethanol.
Good idea. When you gain control of the U.S. Congress, we should implement this plan.
I'd be careful with predictions. Personally the Democrats regaining the majority right now I think was a strategic mistake on their part. I don't think its a Republican conspiracy, but I can't help but think that the Dems may be walking into a trap set by fate. If the economy tanks into recession shortly after they take over in 2 months, and if they can't show progress on forcing the Republicans out of Iraq, or if Iraq improves due to Bush's plan, they could be setting themselves up for a nasty fall.
Not to mention, even in winning the democrats are acting like a pack of jackals, and some are calling for Dean to resign from the DNC because the Dems didn't capture "enough" seats. Gotta love it... win back a majority in both houses in a nation that is roughly 50/50 split, and its still not good enough.
When all is said and done, the Democrats will have picked up roughly 30+ House seats, which is about equal to the greatest margin the GOP ever enjoyed during their 12-year reign. As for Howard Dean, the man is now vindicated! His controversial "50 state strategy" was a stroke of genius, whereas the Republicans and their president were spending money in the most unusual places (i.e. solid red) during the waning days of the campaign. Clearly, the man's efforts paid off handsomely for his party, and they are in a much better position to parlay their success in 2008.
For environmental advocates, the election results clearly were beneficial. Two of the most dastardly villains in Congress were removed from their powerful positions as chairmen of influencial committees. Rep. Richard Pombo (R-CA), chairman of the House Resources Committee and a sworn enemy of virtually every environmental law you could think of, lost his race. Senator James Inhofe (R-OK), chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, will be in the minority party come January, thus losing his chairmanship (this dinosaur mocked global warming as the "greatest hoax ever perpetrated upon the American people", and was among the most prominent roadblocks in Washington regarding this issue).
Having purged these two individuals from their committee chairmanships made the election results all the more satisfying. :)
I would go further....
The 2008 electoral map is VERY friendly to the Dems in the senate. It is going to be very difficult for them to avoid picking up a seat or two. In the house, even if they lose a fair number of seats, barring some sort of tidal wave, they'll still have the majority. For state houses and governorships, they have a solid majority now that will last until 2010 (4 year terms), which means they automatically get to do redistricting in 2010 throughout most of the country (30 states, roughly, with the majority of the country's population, and thus House seats).
This means that in 2010, they will pretty likely gerrymander the remaining blue state republicans straight out of existence. This is exactly what gave the republicans their current majority, lots of (in their case mid-decade) redistricting. The Dems get to redistrict now, and the results will probably not be pretty.
In addition, we have two more years of bush being a total ass.
I think in 2008 the Dems will actually gain seats in both houses, and the white house.
The Democrats certainly can hold the Congress and take the White House but I do not see that as automatically assured as you seem to think. Rather, the Democrats are going to have to moderate their socially liberal positions somewhat, and be more fiscally conservative than Democrats have ever been before. Moderating social positions happens all the time and measuring how "liberal" or "conservative" one is on social issues is a very subjective thing. But the budget is not very subjective at all, at least to the man in the street.
I believe that the last Democrat controlled Congress to pass a balanced budget was under Nixon. The balanced budgets passed under Clinton were all Republican held Congresses. I firmly believe the budget is a major issue, almost as large as Iraq. If the Democrats can successfully force the White House into a withdrawal from Iraq and balance the budget, they will have 2 huge feathers in their cap for 2008. If they can do neither of these, I expect many of them to be replaced yet again, either by other more conservative Democrats, by Republicans, or by independents.
The Democrats are in a strong position, no question. But it's not a guaranteed win. They will have to work to continue to hold the Congress and take the White House. Adopting sane policies on energy would be a good start and there are many Democrat affiliated groups that are putting forth good proposals now rather than smoke-and-mirrors over ethanol and such.
That seems a little misleading: technically Congress controls the budget, but these days the President usually sets the agenda. Think about Reagan and GWB's tax cuts/deficits. It seems clear to me that the last 2 Dem presidents, Carter and Clinton, were much better deficit wise than their successors.
I agree that Dems are in a bit of a trap. I think their best bet is energy: oddly enough, that presents a much better win/win than an Iraq withdrawal or deficit reduction, either of which could have big unintended consequences.
The democrats are just as much a part of the problem as the republicans. If you think they are going to do anything that will upset the capitalist growth engine, think again. They may try to make it a little softer on the edges, like raising minimum wage, but they aren't going to threaten the whole set up.
Check your dictionary and a good history book.
Byzantine means 'complex and deceitful'.
Libertarians would simplify, but some of the problems are by their nature complex.
For example Global Warming: an unpriced economic externality with disastrous consequences for all.
Overfishing falls into the same camp.
Then there is nuclear terrorism, the dependence of the US on foreign oil, global problems like AIDS and flu.
Saying the Democrats are the same as the Republicans is so hopelessly out of touch with reality that I almost don't know where to begin. It's like talking with a creationist, can we accept that the earth is round, or do we need to start with turtles all the way down?
OR
one votes for one of the 2 main parties, and tries to work within the system for change.
Something like Richard Pombo losing his seat in CA was a big win for the environment, everywhere, not just in the USA. Taking out James Inhofe is as likely as a blizzard in mid August in New York City, but would have similar benefits.
Another important thing to do is to learn the issues and become an advocate for them. The internet allows a lot of grass roots communication to take place-- odd though it may sound, there are lots of people who think global warming is a distant problem that scientists are in disagreement about.
Because of the internet, it is possible to access directly the scientific knowledge and debate, and understand how wrong that viewpoint is.
So, while you might not know where to begin, I'll just right you off as hopelessly naive.
The Endangered Species Act
The Clean Water Act
Corporate Average Fuel Economy
These were all huge pieces of legislation, with significant effects for improving the environment of the United States.
What little alternative energy R&D and standards regarding appliance and home energy efficiency that has taken place.
the reality is it will take both Republicans and Democrats to achieve action on climate change.
Senators Lieberman and McCain proposed trading in CO2 permits. Whether they were serious or not is not clear, but it is certainly the case that the Gingrich-DeLay House of Representatives killed any chance of legislation of this nature.
Why did Republicans lose this time? A lot of polling data suggests its because Conservatives either didn't Vote(in disgust with the Republicans), or voted third party libertarian etc. Its a way to show that while a voter isn't ready to switch sides to the other major, they are dissastisfied with the current job.
Secondly, Independents and Libertarians have won seats. I think even a Green has been in Congress before too, but I'd need to double check that. Also many lower level government seats can often be picked up by third parties. They have a harder time, but it can be done.
Thirdly, Politcal Parties have been upended and phased out in our past. Where are the Whigs? They were a major party for a portion of American history. Eventually enough people are going to get tired to this never ending pendulum(sp?) of the Dems and Repubs. When that happens a new party will have a chance to emerge and become viable against the current 2 majors, or replace one of the 2 majors.
If you only think you have 2 choices all the time, then this country is really screwed. New ideas have to be brought into the fray, and a lot of times the two majors look at the surge in a particular minor party's popularity, and steal the idea that led to that popularity. Hurts the small party, but ultimately the idea gets pushed forward.
Their share of Republican voters even rose, by about as much.
What really happened was Independent voters shifted towards the Democrats, from the Republicans.
About zero.
If on the other hand, it were applied (consistently for 20 yearsr) to a fee-bate system to enhance, or replace the CAFE auto standards by favoring high efficiency vehicles, it would slowly have an effect over the lifteime of the vehicle fleet.
"$50 billion would build a lot of wind and solar farms and could also be used to fund wave and tidal projects..."
Yes, but how and where? Would we have the wind farms in nowhere----congressional pork to put wind farms in places with no wind and little electrical demand, but located in the Appropriations Committee Chairman's district?
OK, that's an exaggeration.
Note that one nuclear plant (Palo Verde) produces more power today than all the wind and solar in the US combined.
I understand Palo Verde produces about 3.4 MW on average. US wind is set to pass that by the end of this year, with about 3.7 MW average output and .8% of average US consumption. If all of the 12 GW of wind planned for 2007 actually gets installed that will double.
The impact of renewables on transportation largely depends on the electrification of transportation, though coal and gas displaced by renewables would then be available to displace oil (with substantial delays and capital investment, in the case of oil).
Seriously though. Heatwaves = no wind. It's just that simple. Wind is unreliable, and when you need it most, it's not there. You could ship it in from abroad, but if you don't have wind, then chances are your neighbor doesn't either. This would require a distribution grid on a scale far beyond anything contemplated today. It would have to readjust and send power from any part of the country to any other based on prevailing weather conditions. In addition, we'd need a VAST oversupply of wind so that the lights don't go out when SoCal experiences a heat wave. The european heatwave was made MUCH worse by the fact that it automatically knocked out their wind generation.
Wind as 10%, sure, because there's always some customers you can cut power to if you run short (industrial mostly). Wind as 50%, not likely.
Solar has exactly the same problem. Throw in a grid that can move this electricity all around the country based on the weather, and the ability to store enough to get us through a heatwave or excessively overcast weather in winter, and the scale of this project baloons out of all control.
Renewables probably won't work beyond 20-30% of demand, if you want more carbonless power, you have roughly 1 option, nuclear.
I'm all for getting that 30%, but lets not jump the gun here. When wind provides 20-30% and looks like it can make more without causing periodic blackouts, then lets talk about bashing nuclear. Until then, it's nuclear vs. coal for the remaining 70%, I know what I would prefer.
(gas tends to be peaking plant only).
however there is also carbon sequestration. Which will come, and will be important. Like nuclear, it leaves a long term waste problem, but hopefully if the CO2 leaks in 100 or 200 years, we will be able to deal with it.
On wind, all forms of power are intermittent. There haven't been 5 days in the last 20 years in the whole UK where the wind hasn't blown. So whilst wind has a considerable thermal backup requirement (or more pumped storage) intermittency is not the obstacle it is sometimes portrayed.
It's also worth knowing that the wind is much more constant offshore, any place on the planet. And you can build really big turbines there (wind is more constant away from the ground). This means there are substantial wind power opportunities in the South East USA, even though the onshore wind potential (except in the mountains) is relatively poor.
In the case of the US the US has a number of different 'wind basins'. This is very powerful, because when the wind is not blowing in one, it may well be blowing in another.
The energy treasure of the USA is the Great Plains-- fantastic and regular winds. A resource, in its own way, as rich as that of the Texan oilfields. The challenge is to harness that, and ship the power south to Texas and east to the Midwest.
I don't disagree that it is hard to see with current technology getting above 20-30% renewables. But there are some tweaks (using mines for pumped storage) that will help, as well as more advanced storage technologies (superconducting rings, flywheels etc.).
The future electric power system will be founded on a mix of renewables, and coal with carbon sequestration (capture and storage).
I can't see nukes ever being more than 30% of US consumption. Replace the 84 existing reactors (which has to be done over the next 25 years or so), maybe build a net 60 more, so 144 reactors or say, 4 a year* for 36 years. That is as fast as the US nuclear industry ever commissioned plants, even in the heights of the 60s and 70s.
* the new plants will average 1350MW, say, v. 750MW now, but total power consumption will also have risen.
A man was talking about building a new highway, he wanted it done quickly, maybe a few years. Someone jumped up and says "Wait a minute, this thing is 300 miles long, and you want it done in 10 years? That's 30 miles a year, nobody can build 30 miles a year...."
Of course, when we made the interstate system (hundreds of miles a year, maybe thousands), we didn't have guys with shovels start in New York wait for them to reach LA!
Just because historically we haven't built more than 4 reactors a year doesn't mean it can't be done, or is even very difficult. If there were 30 sites building reactors, why in a country of 300 million people would they interfere with each other?
Put another way, France went from nothing to basically 50% nuclear in about a decade. Why can we (starting with a huge installed base, and the world's best supply of nuclear engineers and technology) not do the same?
4 reactors a year would stress the capacity of the system.
Of course, over time, these things can be scaled. But you can't rapidly scale up complex manufacturing and construction processes.
These are far more complicated than building a road: the analogy is entirely false. These are enormous lump sums of complex technology and skills, costing $2-5bn each.
If the US does begin a new generation of reactors, then I don't expect construction to start on any before 2008 or 2010 (I'm not sure when the reactor certification hearings are scheduled). That would be 1-2 per annum.
To scale to 4, say, is certainly possible. But it won't get you to more than 120 units over 30 years-- at a cost of around $600bn (the likely range is $300bn-600bn). Talking about doing 6 or 8, which would put your completions at the highest levels achieved in the early 70s (I don't have that data-- does someone have a graph), seems to me to be very optimistic.
And of course none of this happens unless the Federal Government does something about long term waste disposal.
The nature of the modern electric utility is that it cannot put the financial risk onto the customer, purely, the regulators won't allow it (or conversely it sells into a deregulated electricity pool with fluctuating prices). So utilities are going to have to see guaranteed returns before they enter back into the nuclear market.
Note British Energy (operating under the latter regime, with 9 reactors) went broke, and had to be bailed out by the government, when the pool price crashed. Now if you have more nuclear power than baseload, you will get periods of near-zero electricity pricing (the nuclear plants will all be selling, and there will not be enough buyers). So the US will have to plan for the same eventualities.
Finland is unusual in that large industrial users have underwritten power contracts which will be sold at nil profit. There aren't many places in the US with that kind of industrial structure.
France is a vertically integrated utility, tied very closely to the French state in a way that wouldn't work in the USA (I can't see the Department of Energy building and operating reactors-- can you see that one getting by Congress?).
I think the industry projections for the US are for 20 reactors over the next 20 years. That seems to me to be sensible, especially given:
- many localities will fight against new nuclear plants (Indian Point in New York State for example)
- 3rd Generation is a new technology, and to some extent untested-- it will take a while to learn how to build and operate them efficiently and safely. Nuclear reactors have never scaled as smoothly as they were supposed to.
- the solution to the waste problem is not going to come quickly
- the industry will have to create a new generation of nuclear engineers and technicians, and association skillsets
- new uranium supplies will have to be identified and mined-- again a 10 year lead time business
After that, I am sure the US could build 100 reactors in the subsequent 20 years (ie 2026-2046) if there was a clear sense of national and political purpose to do so. I think that would require a really significant change in public opinion regarding global warming and a second Energy Crisis.However in that same timescale I would expect the US to move to 100% Carbon Capture and Storage on fossil fuel plants, and I would expect solar power to be a competitive generation technology.
So the 'best choice' or the path chosen, is not at all clear at this point.
I think the AP1000 will work out fairly well. Decades to observe a wide variety of plumbing designs (US nukes were often unique designs at detail level), refueling issues, etc. and the AP1000 makes a virtue of simplicity.
Not too large (not as efficient in kg of U > MWh) but right in the sweet spot of operating temps & pressures from an operating POV. (The Finnish 1,6 GW seems to be pushing it).
Designed for serial production, it opens the US up to the risk of common design flaws, it should be "easy" to build large #s of them.
And the same design with different ages of operation should benefit the younger AP1000s as the older ones age and gain operating experience.
Firat orders are likely to be singles and pairs, but I expect to see triplets (like Brown's Ferry & Palo Verde) and quadruplets thereafter.
Building 4 identical reactors at one site, spaced 18 to 24 months apart, minimizes the stress on personnel and other resources and hence maximizes the potential rate of installation. Such a site is also cheaper to maintain.
Best Hopes,
Alan
however nuclear power has never entirely fulfilled the promise expected of it: neither in cost of construction, nor reliability of stations (on average). It's always turned out to be an expensive technology.
And a good portion of the reactor is 'construction' rather than manufacture ie site specific. And construction can mean very long planning delays, especially if there is strong local opposition, as well as a good deal of tweaking.
The same cost inflation factors that hit other construction projects (steel, copper, skilled labour etc.) can and will hit nuclear projects.
So I am at best cautious on claims for superior performance by new nuclear plants.
And the waste issue looms out there, unresolved.
I think that an assumption that the US can build 120 reactors in 30 years is stretching it, in terms of what is possible politically and economically.
I don't deny if the lights started flickering out that things might change, with a change in the political climate: but then it takes up to 10 years to get a nuclear plant operational (and a minimum of 8 from drawing board) and so other forms of power (coal!) are going to be there first.
This is always the danger that people fall into. Take the present, project it far into the future, and think that this has some validity.
We have LOTS of nuclear engineers. I work with them everywhere, you can't swing a cat in a computer shop without hitting a nuclear engineer who left the field because EVERY SINGLE POLITICIAN in the country has sworn up and down to kill the whole lot of em and send em to the unemployment line. Given assurances, they would come back. Our nuclear fleet provides a pretty decent stock of nuclear engineers, and a decent stock of reactor construction as well, materials, etc...
As I said, france went from nothing to 50% in a decade. Are you saying we're just worse engineers than the french, or that there's some actual limitation? Basically, we all know there's no limitation. The day that coal has to pay to kill people is the day we go all nuclear.
We both know that sequestering carbon is a vastly larger undertaking, and it will never get off the ground. You think it's easier to bury a billion tons of gas a year than it is to build some metal pots to boil water? Seriously, turn that analysis on that project. Nobody has the faintest clue how they're going to sequester carbon. There's maybe a pilot plant here or there running at some meaningless level with massive subsidies. This is at the stage where nuclear was in the 50s, if not the 40s, and it's technically vastly harder as well. That is a pipe dream (literally) if ever there was one.
You are completely incorrect to say they did it in 10 years.
If you want to see how French engineering works, go and take a Train Grand Vitesse (TGV). There is nothing comparable in any Anglo Saxon country. They have been working at this technology, and the associated infrastructure, for 50 years. It is faster to get around France by train, than to fly.
Or look at Airbus. To build the world's number 1 or number 2 airliner manufacturer, from scratch, in 50 years.
They have a form of state-industrial cooperation that doesn't exist in Anglo Saxon countries, and a public trust in high technology.
So France is a bad example.
It wasn't politicians that killed the US nuclear industry. It was cost overruns and safety concerns.
On sequestration, the pieces of the puzzle all exist (Weyburn Sask, Sleipnir Norway etc.). What remains is to knit them all together.
To quote the recent 99 day head of Airbus "It will take at least 15 years for our products to catch up with Boeing".
Airbus has MASSIVE advantages with their gov't support over Boeing, but is failing ATM.
Once Boeing applies 787 technology to the 737 replacement, lights wil start going off in Toulouse :-)
Best Hopes for A380 = Concorde
Alan
Installed US wind at the end of the this year should = roughly 5 average US nukes. Add another 2 or so for 2007 installation.
Best Hopes,
Alan
If there is a major heat wave and wind isn't blowing, I could be certain that the sun is shining which means the solar systems could be kicking in to provide the lack from Wind.
If its cloudy and solar is running at efficiency, then chances are good, the wind is blowing those clouds in somewhere.
The trick with renewables is not to have a combined renewable package that equals 100% of our need. The trick is to have a combined renewables package that equals 150% or more of our need depending on conditions. You want overlapping coverage. Somedays you might be getting the bulk of your power from solar cause the sun is out, and on other from wind.
On top of that, our storage abilities need to improve. If we are in a season of abundant solar or wind, we need to come up with ways to take that excess and store a portion of it. It might be in the form of batteries, capitors or some other electrical storage device, or it might be in the form of pumped storage.
And even with all that, yes I fully expect we will need fossil/nuclear sources of energy, but if we can reduce the need for fossil energy to be even 50% of the total need, that would be a huge improvement over our current path.
I think too many people focus on the effort to just somehow instantly (and 20years is basically instantly when talking about civilizations) stop using all fossil fuels. Its not going to be like that, we will shift gradually from one to the other.
Anyhow, the dogging on renewables when you are considering them in isolated systems, is a stupid excercise. The solution is not a 1 size fits all type of thing. And so when looking at wind, yes look at the shortfalls, but then also include a realistic view of alternatives which could fill in when wind is down.
150%, try 300% or more. Wind power gets around 30% utilization on average, that's an emperical fact. If it gets 30% on average, then I contend that there are days in the continental US where the sum total of all our wind is getting less than 20%, so lets say as an absolute bare minimum, we'd need 500% of demand as installed wind capacity, and even then we'd have a blackout from time to time. What's really the number that the capacity in the US doesn't drop below? Is there never a day when our wind averages 10% of theoretical maximum? 5%? Where is the cutoff?
I grant you that the wind is always blowing somewhere, but is it blowing enough in enough places to keep the lights on throughout a country of 300 million people at all times? 365 days a year? Every day, every hour? Even a 5 minut blip in wind would cause blackouts.
Wind works in Denmark because they're hooked into the EU grid that is not powered by wind. When denmark has extra wind, they can sell it to Germany, when they don't have enough, they can buy some. Who would the US trade with? Sell to Canada when we have 6x as much electricity as we need? Buy from Mexico when we have 1/2 as much as we need?
To the extend that we have stuff that can be run at will (aluminum smelters, etc...) wind is the way to go. When the industrial customers run out, we need another solution for the rest.
I'm sure wind+solar does better than wind alone, but don't kid yourself. Yes, even in heatwaves the sun does not always shine. It's called night, and it always happens. Has never failed yet.
Your #s are way off in a realistic scenario.
Best Hopes,
Alan
The rule of thumb, from the National Grid Co here (they also own Niagara Mohawk Power) is that 25GW wind capacity will displace 5GW of other capacity.
The 'capacity credits' awarded to different forms of capacity bidding into the Electricity Pool are lower than the actual load factors achieved, because they include an allowance for unreliability.
(the UK uses a 'fixed one hour gate' ie to produce power at 9pm, you bid into the pool by 8pm)
CCs, are roughly:
Combined Cycle Gas Turbines - 90%
Coal fired - 80%
Nuclear - 70% (nuclear plants have a history of unplanned maintenance and safety outages)
Wind -20%
So as you increase the amount of wind in the system, you increase the amount of fossil fueled backup. Fortunately, most of that capacity already exists either as old coal fired stations or CCGTs.
And since you aren't running it very often, the backup capacity will last a long time.
You can either hold a coal station at ready spinning (using something like 10% of energy) or you can fire it up (takes hours, increases wear and tear due to the heating up of the steam system), and then bid it into the pool as and when.
Gas turbine (straight) you can fire up in seconds, the Combined Cycle part has longer delays (as above with coal).
Active demand management is also pretty crucial here: if you can shut down consumers on short notice (many big industrial customers are on interruptible power contracts) then your reserve margin problem is much less chronic. In Ontario, there is an electricity tariff where the utility can shut down your water heater or air conditioning plant for 30 minutes, every 2 hours.
Using a tradeable carbon permit system, each utility will make an economic calculation:
Nuclear is $0.04/KWh, roughly, if wind can get under $0.08 for reliable (emphasis on reliable, $0.08 for power when the customers want it, not when the windmill decides to generate it) power, then it's got a shot, if not, then I'm not sure it does, the future will belong to either coal or nuclear.
Palo Verde capacity is 3.6GW
production (2003) is 28.5 GWhrs.
The point about nuclear is that it is 8-10 years to build a nuclear station. Whereas it is 2-3 years to build a wind farm.
The two are complementary, in that nuclear is only economic as baseload power: if you have more nuclear than your baseload, you either have to sell it or throw it away.
Wind is intermittent, so it spreads across baseload, mid merit and peak.
"The two are complementary"
I would argue that the two are very similar, and therefore in competition with each other. Both are capital intensive, with very low operating costs; both generate electricity over 24 hours. When both are generating during baseload periods there will be conflict, and you're likely not going to want much more than about 35% of your generation from wind and nuclear combined. You can see this conflict from the steady stream of criticism of wind from nuclear advocates - just look at the Nuclear Energy Institute website, especially the blog.
Wind's disadvantage is intermittency. Wind's advantages are: wind is much faster to install; has much smaller increments; and installation costs are much more predictable than nuclear; and nuclear has externalities: radiation hazards, both during operation and after, and from weapons proliferation (which I feel is by far the most important).
10,492 MW as of September 30, 2006 per AWEA. Add 1.5 months since then. Figure 32% load factor and wind > Palo Verde when down time is figured in.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/nuclear/page/at_a_glance/reactors/palo_verde.html
Wind installed as of today should produce 30 TWh each year. In 2003 (latest #s) Palo Verde produced 28.58 TWh.
I do see wind as leaving the "Large Scale Test & Proof of Concept" mode and entering as a major source of new generation. As posted by others here on TOD, 40% of generation from new plants installed in 2006 will come from wind (another 4% from other renewables).
Best Hopes,
Alan
- will the US Congress extend the RPC subsidy (also granted to new nuclear plants) to allow the growth of wind power to continue in the US?
(as The Economist and many other publications point out, it would be far better for government to tax carbon emission (or auction permits to emit CO2) and let the market sort out the most efficient technology however at the moment that idea has about as much political currency as a snowball in downtown Manhattan in August or a winter's dip in Lake Superior in January)
- can we feasibly run electricity grids with 10%, 20% or more of terrawatt hours sourced from wind power?
In the long run Alan Drake feels that over 50% wind is possible. I think he's right, but I think the point of diminishing returns will be about 35%, with solar, nuclear, hydro and biomass providing the rest.
I think wind's intermittency won't be that hard to deal with - 20% will be pretty easy, but more will require some work and expense which will require a comittment to CO2 reductions.
I do not disagree. But the cost of alternative renewables (solar is the only other one that can scale up in large #s) make wind the preferred source even past the "point of diminishing returns". The delta in costs weighs towards some solar, but just a few % from solar and much more from wind.
Basically, I expect wind + pumped storage to be cheaper than solar PV alone in 2025.
I assume -20% in today's demand due to conservation. With higher population & electricity substituting for other energy sources, that seems close to the cost-effective limit.
And 23% nuke seems unavoidable to me without much higher costs.
Best Hopes,
Alan
First and foremost, in energy consumption and demand management. The average fall in energy consumption per unit of GDP is -1.6% (so total demand rises in any year where GDP growth is greater than 1.6%). This can, I believe, be doubled
http://www.pwc.com/extweb/pwcpublications.nsf/docid/dfb54c8aad6742db852571f5006dd532
Second in energy generation and storage technologies.
When you realise an IGCC is 10% more efficient in energy conversion than a contemporary coal fired plant, 45% v. 30-35%, and IGCC is at the beginning of its evolutionary product lifecyle, you realise how much there is to be done, and what dividends it might pay.
There will need to be more energy R&D, the Stern Review points out this has halved since the early 1980s, worldwide, and that most of the innovative R&D was done under government auspices (industry tends to focus on what it does well already eg oil companies on oil extraction technologies).
The two best new renewables, wind and geothermal owe next to nothing to gov't R&D (what wind R&D was spent has had minimal impact on the WTs spinning today. Almost all from Denmark).
Solar PV is still far from general economic competiveness. And it has been the darling of gov't spending.
Yes, I support gov't R&D, but I have little hope of useful results from research grants.
I expect to be "surprised" by future solar PV. Surprised by how little the economics improve over time.
Alan
At that rate they halve every 10 years.
PV is fundamentally a materials technology, and you can make gains by:
- increasing the manufacturing yield
- manufacturing more cheaply
- getting more efficient power conversion
It seems to me the history of materials technology is one of success. Aluminium was once an expensive metal. Carbon fibres were once a lab curiousity, now they are heavily used in aircraft and there are some automotive applications. Transistors were once rare and expensive. Ditto any semiconductor.If the world semiconductor industry can ship $400bn of product pa, I don't see why the world PV industry can't ship on that order of magnitude.
I think government played a huge role in creating the wind industry: by financing R&D and, in the Danish case, by mandating demand.
In any case, what the Stern Review is talking about is doubling world energy R&D from £20bn pa to £40bn pa.
£20bn will buy you about 60 F22 fighter planes (which no one has a plausible, post Cold War reason to procure).
If you think how much of that is nuclear (perhaps 1/3rd) you realise how little we are actually spending on the greatest single threat this planet has faced in the lifetime of human civilisation (you could argue that nuclear war was greater: let's say I don't want to run the experiments to find out!).
Interesting the DOE has trashed its $25m pa research into geothermal, and $20m pa into hydro power. Both of which are technologies of which I am sure there are more gains possible.
Not that other gov't actions are not of value, just R&D selected & funded R&D.
Denmark had carbon taxes, built transmission as needed, mandated "must take" for wind power from utilties (I think), set up an easy legal framework for a co-op to own a few WTs, (often farmers or a farmer + cityfolk), had limited siting restrictions, and the gov't maintained a database of experience (crucial so good WTs got more orders, bad ones not).
And they had over 80% of the market a few years ago. The "Danish" model dominates (3 blade, up wind). And gov't R&D has had little effect on current designs. Commercial, mainly Danish R&D has.
I just do not think that gov't bureaucrats are very good at picking technologies or grant applications to fund.
Best Hopes,
Alan
And I question if that -7% pace can be maintained long term.
Thua I see PV solar as a niche product.
You quote a $ figure for ICs. But that is not the correct metric. How many square meters does Intel, AMD, Toshiba, etc. sell ?
Solar PV will be cheaper per square area, but area, not $ is is close to the correct metric (watts is best metric).
Best Hopes,
Alan
2nd, solar output is much more closely related to demand than wind (IOW it's closer to peak demand, which makes it more valuable per kwh), and appears to be somewhat negatively correlated with wind, which makes them complementary.
3rd, as generation equipment costs fall, Balance of System costs are becoming more important for both wind and PV, and they're easier to reduce for PV with Building Integration.
4th, just as wind is smaller & more modular than nuclear, PV is smaller & more modular than wind, which gives it faster generational turnover and easier project managment and financing: think integration into standard building developer plans (as is now happening in California), and 30 year mortgages.
Finally, PV doesn't have to compete with wind directly. Wind is wholesale, and PV is retail. That's why PV is now directly competitive in Japan and for some customers in California who pay more than $.25 per kwh. As PV prices fall they will be competitive in more places and there will be a clear tipping point - at $.125 per kwh (a 50% reduction) PV will be directly competitive in a very large fraction of markets. Already PV demand is close to doubling annually.
I think it will be a race to see whether wind or solar can cut costs faster. The newest proposed offshore WT designs (floating, much larger & further from shore) appear able to cut costs by 2/3 by reducing support costs and taking advantage of size-related efficiency & better wind.
I am NOT anti-solar PV !
I want a breakthroughs to happen quickly.
BUT, in my judgment, Wind Turbines will win the race with solar PV for the next couple of decades.
The world would be well served with two new renewable technologies that can scale up and economically replace fossil fuels. I think I see one such technology emerging in the near term and the other still on the edges.
I do hope that you are right !
Best Hopes,
Alan
But what % of US generation will come from such sources in 30 years (remember decay of solar PV) ?
My GUESS is about 4%. A useful extra source of renewable power.
Best Hopes,
Alan
In that spirit, how do you calculate 53% wind, 23% nuclear and 4% wind?
I should clarify that when I say "in the long run", I mean in about 50 years out for the status quo decentralized approach, and about 25 for a serious societal commitment.
For instance, Spain just legislated that all new construction must include a solar component (residential requires solar hot water heating, commercial/industrial needs PV). If we had such a requirement for PV in the US we could easily get to about 35% electricity from solar in in the long run: 125M buildings with an average of 5KW each and 20% load factor would generate 125GW on average.
Building owners would generate for $.07, sell through their time-of-day meters for $.15, and buy at night for $.05, and net a real profit on the deal.
Nuke provides base load in areas with poor to mediocre wind resources (that includes California and most large population centers). South & Central Florida may export nuke at night and import wind & pumped storage at peak.
Wind sources can be thought of as the Great Plains at the top (ND, SD, MN, IA, MO, WY, NE, CO, OK, TX) and as the "exporter". Offshore East & West Coast & Great Lakes will mainly serve localized markets and localized pumped storage.
(Some export, but a small %).
Low grade wind resources (load factors of 20% to 25% with oversized blades) will be used whereever possible to provide diversity and reduce transmission requirements. The same for rooftop PV (No solar PV in the Dakotas).
I take advantage of time zones "smearing" the peak for Great Plains exports. At least half of Great Plains wind exports would go to pumped storage at least halfway to final user than would be used directly though.
Massive pumped storage centers along Great Lakes, Rocky Mountains, Applachian Mts, and and slightly smaller centers in Ozarks and West Texas Davis Mts. Local ones using old mines, smaller hills, reversing hydro dams, etc. if good sites are rare.
An example. Chattanooga area has massive 30 GW pumped storage complex. Every night it gets excess nuke power from Florida and most nights from Oklahoma wind farms on HV DC.
During the day, local PV supplies 22% of peak demand in FL, nuke provides 55%, wind 6% (FL is poor wind site), and imports from pumped storage and/or OK wind farms (routed through Chattanooga) supply the balance.
I hope this helps conceptually.
Best Hopes,
Alan
http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/winds/global_winds.html
It indicates that there is a great deal of wind resource on all of the US coasts. The northeast and northwest are especially good, but California, Gulf of Mexico and southwest coast (including Florida) look good enough for large supplies.
Given that offshore wind is more reliable, I'd say that this suggests that we won't have to rely on the Midwest as much as we thought.
The added cost of insurance and social risk of extended blackouts make more than small and relatively minimal off-shore installations (note that Florida generates a few % from wind. Hopefully no more than 1% would be lost in any one year).
Unless they can create a WT that can survive 200 mph winds with comparable economics. Then yes. But I am loathe to assume such improvements.
Best Hopes,
Alan
It seems to me that hurricane risks are low. The Cape Wind turbines are rated to 150 MPH, which is Cat 4. Turbines are fairly widely spaced, so a whole farm isn't going to go out at once.
Oil rigs still operate in the GOM. WT's are going in off the Texas coast.
I suspect that you'd have a 1-2% per year chance of losing any individual turbine to a direct hit by a cat 5, which would raise costs by roughly the same factor.
Well, your annual capital cost is 10% or less of the total, so you costs might rise 10-20% overall. OTOH, this is an upper bound as wind turbine hurricane resistance is only going to rise. The penalty for transmission from the midwest, and pumped storage would be higher, so I would think that GOM turbines would be viable.
The first year there is a 4% of losing 24.5 years of service, teh second year a 4% chance of losing 23.5 years of service, ... Sum these up. The expected economic life of GoM hurricanes is cut in half !
The economic alternative for WTs is nukes. An mild excess at night that is exported to pumped storage (say Chattanooga), a shortage during the day that is made up, in part, by solar PV, , imports of Wind from elsewhere and Pumped Storage imports. (Pumped storage is also needed for WTs, no real difference for PS or transmission).
In addition, there is the social risk. A few years ago, GFlorida was hit by 4 hurricanes. A srong hurricane (not all were strong, but offshore hurricanes are stronger than on shore) and each can wipe out a 100 mile wide swath of WTs.
Note thst I included 6% from wind. Florida could lose half of that and, with proper planning, "get by". Not true for 50% of their power from wind.
Will WT maximumk wind resistance rise ? Only for speciality WTs. I expect the trend will be to drop, in order to lower weight, increase size, etc.
best Hopes,
Alan
Alan, how did you get this? The company installing WT's off of Galveston says their WT's will handle up to 155 MPH, which means it can handle anything but a direct hit from a category 5 hurricane.
That sounds to me like no more than a 1%-2% risk per year for any individual turbine, or roughly a 20% cost premium for hurricane risk, which seems to me tolerable. Certainly the company doing this windfarm seems to feel that way. How did you get 4%?
"Direct hits" (> 155 mph) by Cat 5 are quite broad. We seem to be entering a period of more intense hurricanes. At sea I remember Katrina >150 mph to be over 100 miles wide.
Remember, speed at landfall is NOT the issue for off-shore hurricanes. And any acturial calc will overestimate the risk and hence the premium.
And even a 1% risk of being w/o enough electricity for years is "not acceptable".
Alan
First, the Galveston WT's are rated for 155 MPH. With normal engineering safety margins that means that they are likely to survive higher speeds than that (with the cube law, 170MPH is 32% more powerful than 155 MPH, roughly a normal engineering safety margin) though the % likelihood of survival will begin to fall with rising speed. Katrina & Rita hit the coast at 125 and 115 MPH - were they over 155 just 10-20 miles from the coast?
2nd, wind damage to a turbine is unlikely to be a total loss. Steel tubes are very easy to engineer to any desired strength, so it's the blades that would be vulnerable to damage. They could be replaced relatively quickly and at only a fraction of the cost of the whole installation.
3rd, offshore techology is likely to go to floating platforms. Such WT's could be easily moved, and holes in a windfarm could be replaced with new ones, or ones from another even from another coast in a relatively short time (that's one of their selling points).
Finally, the Galveston project is going ahead. That area is as prone to hurricanes as any, and they clearly think the risk is acceptable.
We certainly live with the risk of a 1.3GW nuclear plant going out unexpectedly, and for an extended period. Individual wind farms are likely to be substantially smaller than that, and distributed over the coastline: would there be a significant risk of a large % of GoM WT capacity going out with one hurricane, or even one hurricane season?