The Oil Drum | From the Editor's Desk: Peak Oil, Heretical Thought, Complexity, and the Future of The Oil Drum

352 comments on From the Editor's Desk: Peak Oil, Heretical Thought, Complexity, and the Future of The Oil Drum

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westexas on November 10, 2006 - 12:01pm

PG: Very good comments

My comments regarding this topic on the open thread are shown below. As I noted in my comment, I really do believe that a lot of the "recent unpleasantness" is a result of the increased attention that TOD is getting. While I think that I have been the primary tactical target so far, don't be fooled. The strategic goal, IMO, is to destroy The Oil Drum.

IMO, Hothgor is a result of the increased attention that TOD gets. I think that he represents, either on a paid basis or on a freelance basis, the interests of some group that perceives The Oil Drum as a threat. I think that his purpose is to make the TOD experience as unpleasant as possible, and you have to give him credit, he is remarkably effective at it. I know that I have begun to wonder why I should continue to bother.

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Jason Bradford on November 10, 2006 - 12:18pm

It is difficult to know where a particular person is coming from, but...

A friend of mine once met a young person just out of college who was hired by a PR firm to troll the internet, engage in chat rooms, promote one thing and trash another.

How's that feeling of trust doing?

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AlphaMaleProphetOfDoom on November 10, 2006 - 5:01pm

Yeah, I just ban any troublemakers on the Latoc forum. I don't have time or energy to suffer fools.

What I do also is attach a picture of me sunbathing naked, ass up along with the message informing them they've been banned. It's my way of getting a bit of justice/venegence for somebody trying to screw up my board.

PG,

I could send you the pic if you want to use it. Works like a charm. (I pulled it off the google satellite photo map, btw.)

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Wharf Rat on November 10, 2006 - 6:43pm

"Yeah, I just ban any troublemakers on the Latoc forum. I don't have time or energy to suffer fools. "

Try this for fun
http://www.netdisaster.com/go.php?mode=tomato&url=http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/2/1620 19/324#comments

more available
http://www.netdisaster.com/

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Euan Mearns on November 10, 2006 - 9:33pm

AMPOD - just scanned through the posts here before falling into bed. IMHO - it is a really difficult job to retain the freedom of speach and quality ( I'm only really interested in equality to speak where that is weighted by the speakers qulaifications to speak) - and here in lies the problem - who decides what's crap and what's not crap?

We are confronting a new problem. And that leads on to PG's discussion of trust.

I would judge that when I started posting here I got a rough ride - and I've moved on a bit since then.

What I will say is this - if I were to trust anyone with comming up with an new and fair editorial system it woud be the TOD editors and contributors. If they drift from what I find to be accpetable - I'm off - but right now thetyre on the money but grappling with a difficult problem.

My hope is that TOD becomes the industry standard.

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fleam on November 10, 2006 - 10:23pm

My hope is that TOD becomes the industry standard too. The only other "golden" links are peakoil.com which is too full of 9-11 conspiracies and other highschool level nonsense, (although improving lately) and dieoff.org which is great for some people, who like to dig into big meaty tomes - not the other 99% of the population.

I'd like to see this site stay up as long as there is an Internet. It's very hard to wrap one's mind around the basic realities that "Progress" is a recent, and deranged, idea, that the bare-ass Australian Aborigine is more successful in Mother Earth's eyes than the CEO, and so on. This page provides the best help of all of them towards digesting these things at a gut level.

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TrueKaiser on November 10, 2006 - 11:31pm

your half right..
it's not nonsense but you do need a good grasp of at least high school level math and physics to understand it.

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AlphaMaleProphetOfDoom on November 11, 2006 - 2:26pm

". . . and here in lies the problem - who decides what's crap and what's not crap?"

Just pick somebody trusted, preferrably a female as she is not as likely to get emotionally invested in the ritualized dominance contests.

If "TheEnforcer" gets out of hand or starts acting like a Beyootch, then you boot her ass and get a new Enforcer.

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Oilrig medic on November 11, 2006 - 2:31pm

"preferrably a female as she is not as likely to get emotionally invested"

do you know any females?

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odograph on November 12, 2006 - 11:07am

LOL, any stalking horses you have in mind?

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GROK on November 10, 2006 - 12:24pm

At Kunstler's CFN trolls and bad behavior have made the unadulterated blog much less worthy of reading(I use a kill program to block comments by trolls). Many informed and intelligent people left because of this fact. Of course we thrive on open debate but there seems to be paid and unpaid individuals who would destroy what has been so wonderfully created.

Trolls need to be penalized and discouraged.

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Nate Hagens on November 10, 2006 - 12:45pm

Seriously - this is the third time Ive seen this and perhaps Im ignorant....but who would PAY someone to troll TOD and for what purpose??

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peakearl on November 10, 2006 - 12:50pm

Exactly - and while he has been very controversial, I haven't seen him promote anything in particular and he is a believer in Peak Oil on the same time frame as Campbell and advocates alternative energy. This is really why his contentiousness and hostile attitude has me confused more than anything. His position behind the rhetoric is very similar to RR's, but boy is the rhetoric different. He has really obscured whatever point he his trying to make by his demeaning, hostile style.

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Nate Hagens on November 10, 2006 - 12:54pm

um... who are you referring to?

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westexas on November 10, 2006 - 1:10pm

Hopefully me. I'm campaigning to get myself voted off as a troll--one way to cure the addiction.

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DelusionaL on November 11, 2006 - 12:08am

Ah..no as an "oil troll" you get stuck in the tarsands or is that tarzans I can't remember..

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peakearl on November 10, 2006 - 2:00pm

Sorry, I was thinking of Hothgar following the preceeding line of comments.

I'm certainly not ready to let westexas (no, it's not you) go so easily.

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Engineer-Poet on November 10, 2006 - 12:54pm

Who would pay someone to deny the science behind the conclusion that the climate is heating up?

If the USA (and the west in general) embarked on a program of best-available-technology efficiency improvements, replacement of fossil fuels and R&D aimed at extending both of the above, the price of oil would sink and the total amount produced (before declining fields are closed and abandoned) would also decrease. The difference in revenues to oil producers versus the current "plenty of oil" peak-denialism could be a trillion dollars. If you think it isn't worth a few tens of thousands of dollars to troll TOD, Real Climate and other blogs where experts meet the public, I think you underestimate what's at stake. Even a few months' delay could be worth hundreds of billions of dollars.

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Nate Hagens on November 10, 2006 - 1:00pm

Wow - I never thought of that. I guess its plausible. Kind of scary though.

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westexas on November 10, 2006 - 1:43pm

Re: Engineer Poet

Just think of what would happen to some industries if everyone did adopt my ELP recommendations, which are really nothing more than a suggestion that you live within your means and maximize your savings.

I tend to not go for conspiracy theories, but I do believe in "follow the money." I lot of very powerful interests want Americans to continue buying--and financing--large homes and autos.

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westexas on November 10, 2006 - 1:56pm

Note the headline that Leanan just posted:
Detroit foreclosures lead nation

I have previously recounted a story about pitching my ELP message to a guy last year. He thought about it, and then said, "But what happens to the US economy when we stop borrowing and spending?"

It goes to show you how far this once great nation has fallen, when a simple suggestion that we live within our means is somehow considered to be vaguely un-American.

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WeatherGlass on November 10, 2006 - 4:03pm

I wouldn't be surprized if this is connected with the unpleasant troll issue you've been discussing (this posting should probably be under one of those threads I know...but here I go)

There is a long history of violations of constitutionally protected activities and rights in the US. One that's grieviously under-reported and unrecognized is the Freedom of Association (this would include such rights as not having to associate with gov't spies, provocateurs, moles, professional disruptors, etc... in your contitutionally protected association).

The book "The War at Home" describes how COINTELPRO (an FBI operation) was used to "misdirect, discredit and disrupt" any organization/individual not to its liking. (Generally anyone with an activist agenda perceived as threatening by large corporations.) It makes for chilling reading, but it will give even the most polite Boat-Rockers new eyes with to perceive their activist experiences.

We only know of COINTELPRO because some brave citizens actually burglarized an FBI office, found the incriminating documents, and published them! At that point, congress was compelled under public pressure (this was the 70's after all) to order them to shut the operation down, which they nominally did.

One doesn't need to be a cynic to assume they just decentralized and renamed the operation. I've known many activists working on some incredibly benign campaigns tell stories of organizations and work destroyed by events that look like they were scripted out of "The War at Home".

If you can't recognize it, you can't see it.

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Big Gav on November 10, 2006 - 7:25pm

I have been known to speculate about the privatised version of some of this stuff (paid trolling to further various industry PR campaigns like global warming denial), using Netvocates as an example.

http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2006/06/netvocates-privatised-propaganda.html

Nice post by the way PG - I feel much the same way - I guess its the price you pay for success (those of us ranting away in relative obscurity don't have the same problems of course)...

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DelusionaL on November 11, 2006 - 10:57am

WG - We had formed a group to oppose a gov't asphalt plant. There showed up a guy with a vague backround( no real job to speak of, no work phone #, no real address, etc.) that wanted to get deeply involved. Claimed to have bought this piece of bare property which had been bought only under a different name(we did a county records check). Said he wanted to build a house etc. etc.
One of our members had read an article in the NewYorker magazine that said these type of operations are alive and well here in the US. We kept him at an arms lenght. Luckily we live in an area where the "new comers" are the ones who have been here 8 years.
He went away as wierdly as he showed up. Property sold a year or two later. Never really saw him on it(the land).
No proof or anything just a little too strange for a few of us. I have never forgot it.
Wasn't it Egar Hover(FBI) that had the dirt on everyone so he could go dress like a woman and no one could call him on it.
It would be a little niave IMHO to think that with the incredible money that rides on our oil based economy that there isn't more than a few people watching this blog.

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Engineer-Poet on November 10, 2006 - 7:22pm

I've been living well below my means for the past twenty years. What I need now is someplace to park my assets where they'll be worth relatively more after a contraction or dollar crash.

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Nick on November 10, 2006 - 8:40pm

well, in the case of a dollar crash, do you think interest rates will rise or fall?

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SocraticGadfly on November 12, 2006 - 3:07pm

Westexas, I know you've already seen the news that our Dallas foreclosures, through November, lead those of all of last year. And, you still have puff-writing Realtors' advocates saying, "Nothing to see here; it's all getting better."

I wrote an editorial in my newspaper last month advocating against a local school bond, mentioning the housing slowdown allowing a little breathing room.

Got flamed.

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AlanfromBigEasy on November 10, 2006 - 2:20pm

A group of US senators recently requested ExxonMobil to stop funding groups and individuals that deny/understate Global Warming/"Climate Change".

One can buy quite a bit of "science" with XOM's checkbook !

Reality

Alan

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MUDLOGGER on November 10, 2006 - 3:28pm

there are plenty of people out to trash PO and GW.

From the New Scientist:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/us/mg19225765.000.html

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Essex Land Rover Man on November 11, 2006 - 9:44am

Interesting that Pat Michaels of University of Virginia rubbish's Global Warming by counting the number of published reports against Global Warming and using that number as proof that GW is a figment of someone's imagination. I would have thought that a responsible academic would have spent years gathering data with an unbiased view point, seeing where the data was heading and publishing a report on the data that they had collected.

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karlof1 on November 10, 2006 - 3:36pm

On the various securities message boards, like Yahoo's for example, there are paid "bashers" and "pumpers" that are the same as trolls. I've seen that here and directly accused one of such behavior quite some time ago. Indeed, there are many times when I ignore the comment threads after the main article because the format is unwieldy and discourse disjointed. It's been my experience that once confronted trolls are best ignored except to debunk sophisticated FUD.

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AlphaMaleProphetOfDoom on November 10, 2006 - 5:05pm

Nate,

You need to get a tinfoil hat. I can let you borrow mine. Now granted a lot of times you'll end up worrying about stuff that is just flat out crazy. But nowadays for every 5 ideas that sound totally crazy at first (like corporations paying trools), 1 or 2 of them turn out to be true. So the tinfoil hat is quite usefull if you get my drift.

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SocraticGadfly on November 12, 2006 - 3:02pm

I can think of a number of people/groups who would profit from diminishing a group like this, as Westexas has hinted.

CERA. The more convincingly Yergin's puff becomes refuted, the more he has to lose.
CERA's Big Oil masters.
The Democratic Party, if it gets challenged enough to actually start addressing Peak Oil.
Residential housing developers, planners, etc. The more untenable the "big box" becomes as a cheap way to ramp up the cost of houses enough to let cities exercise a modicum of socioeconomic control over their growth, the more this group fights back.
Utility companies
Maybe even speculative financiers of the Soros sort who don't want the potential for market manipulations altered, undercut or exposed.

How's that for a starting list?

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AlphaMaleProphetOfDoom on November 10, 2006 - 5:11pm

Here's another way of thinking about it: I saw a job ad on Post Carbon's Institute page. Part of the job included participating in internet forums to promote PC's views.

Personally speaking if a PCI paid poster showed up at the LATOC forum, I wouldn't mind one bit. My guess is the overlords of TOD would feel simiarly as such a person would add positive/informative commentary.

My point is this: if a small operation like the PCI is willing to pay a person to participate in internet discussions for what we consider constructive reasons, how much more motivated would a multi-million dollar operation with less benevolent intentions be to pay people to participate in discussions for destructive reasons?

It only makes sense that big insitutions would hire professional posters.

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AlphaMaleProphetOfDoom on November 10, 2006 - 5:03pm

a pic of my "blindingly white ass of doom" sent to their inbox will do the trick mighty fine.

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RussFag on November 10, 2006 - 9:10pm

russ975@pochta.ru

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thegoodshipkship on November 11, 2006 - 1:09am

lol

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b3NDZ3La on November 11, 2006 - 5:58pm

hahahah!

ummm MikeB "at" foxhill "dot" com

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Hothgor on November 10, 2006 - 11:17pm

That's probably the most ridiculous theory I have ever heard. I work at my family store. I have no reason to want to 'destroy' TOD, or 'debunk' PO and GW. PO and GW are both very real and very present dangers. You wont hear me say otherwise.

But seriously, these troll comments are getting out of hand. People don't want to hear any dissenting opinions because in some ways they don't want to admit that the potential exists for them to be wrong on any occasion. Debates are good in the long term, and its ridiculous to think that you are getting any kind of constructive unbiased opinion out for the whole world if the entire TOD community is only there to cheer you on and back slap you.

Calling someone a troll without examining the merits of a post is tantamount to admitting that you are either too lazy or too unsure of your own position that you don't want to risk defending it for fear of being proved wrong. If I'm wrong on a subject, then I'm wrong. I have no qualms about admitting that I am. If I'm right on a subject, then likewise I'm right. I don't go to sleep at night dreaming of my next 'victory' over PO. Thats just nonsense.

All this talk of censoring people based on their popularity defeats the entire purpose of a website devoted to the discussion of peak oil and the future of our energy needs. You won't see me derailing a thread onto a subject that isn't related to the topic :/

I am however flattered at all the attention I seemed to have garnered.

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oldhippie on November 11, 2006 - 12:08am

Hothgor
For what it's worth I doubt you're a paid troll. Trollmasters would dream of having someone as good as you. OTOH why are you going headon with Jeffrey Brown? He has credibity beyond what you will earn for many years and you are going backwards.
And what is that name? Gothic horror? Goth Whore? The name is my first reason for suspecting you are but a young whippersnapper.
And why do you think your method has a future? Look at all the turmoil you are causing here. If you want respect, if you want your arguments heard, sit back a while. Persist and hear only a clamor to throw you out.

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Oilrig medic on November 11, 2006 - 12:14am

Hothgor is a misspelling of Hrothgor the king of the Danes from the Beowulf poem. I am guessing anyway...a grendel posts here to but not for some time I think...

matt

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