210 comments on DrumBeat: November 27, 2006
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210 comments on DrumBeat: November 27, 2006
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GAIA Host Collective
The Denver Post from Colorado:
And this is when the economy is "expanding" and when we have "low" unemployment. It seems to me that someone with the initials JHK predicted all of this.
And more SUVs parked in front of the house than drivers living in it is not a sign of insanity, it is a measure of how much your neighbors will envy you.
Ah, the American Dream.
Only a tiny fringe can imagine this becoming a nightmare, it seems, and they are easily ignored, right?
But as an opinion, I am not sure Kunstler has really thought out what it means when this all comes crashing down, as he so fervently desires - watching his problems dealing with a local weather related disruption a year ago, I'm not sure he has actually understood what he predicts.
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_4719353
It looks half-local to me. The other half is the unfortunate combination of a housing bubble coinciding with a collapse of lending standards. These poor people should not have been given loans.
I'm pretty sure they were given them because the debt is somehow passed through to FDIC insured CDs:
https://bank.countrywide.com/scontent.aspx?cmtag=Content-cds
I have a CD like that. Did I give those unfortunates a loan with 100% financing and adjustable rate? Maybe. And sad if that's what happened.
In Ohio, we didn't really see much of a boom in real estate and so we've avoided a bust. Home prices are just flat. I guess that's one good thing about living in a dull state to which no one would reloacte unless they had to. Anyway, there are a lot of these neighborhoods where people were given loans they never should have received. The problem of unloading these forclosed homes is exacerbated by the fact that the builders are still building the exact same house in the next phase of the development. Who wants to buy a 2 or 3 year old foreclosed home when you can buy the exact same home brand new. the thing that puzzles me about it is that with the most obnoxious lending practices, the builder is also the lender. Ohio has laws forbidding these predatory type loans but has an exception when it is "for sale by owner", so these big builders build 10's of thousands of homes then they act as the bank when it sells so that it can be FSBO and they can avoid these laws. So what i don't understand is how they can continue to give out these loans and hold all these forclosed homes. They're not screwing the bank, bc/ they are the bank, they're screwing themselves. Any real estate moguls here that explain to me what I'm missing here?
You, as an individual, can buy a small $100,000 slice of a Ginnie Mae. China is one of the big buyers (higher yield than US T-Bills). I am unsure of the sophisicated methods of reducing risk (they are there) and layering defaults. (One can buy the last xx% of value in a portfolio, so that mortgage losses hit those that hold the upper layers).
Hope this helps,
Alan
BTW, Housing bubble burst is good for New Orleans. Should drive down cost of materials and we will get migrant construction workers.
I know, I know- just save your comments about the cost of RV'ing and the future of RV parks. My in-laws are doing very well right now and they're in their 60's. They just need to make it a few more years then they'll retire. Irrespective of PO, no one in the younger generation is willing to take over the family business from them when they retire.
I think his idea was that people in or around the international business community was more caught up in this thing than others.
(I think it was "Irrational Exuberance" by Robert Shiller. I see that I talked about the book here back in March.)
A Short History of Financial Euphoria
by Galbraith which is worth the read IMO
Read this one for the process. Really good I think. Here is just a snippet.
If These Are Bubbles, Where Is All That Hot-Air Money Coming From?
November 25, 2006 by Katy Delay
http://www.prudentbear.com/archive_comm_article.asp?category=Guest+Commentary&content_idx=60572
John
All this means to me is that when things unravel, the poor, regressively taxed taxpayer gets saddled with the bill from bailing out the fed. agencies (S&L crisis writ large), at the same time they are on the street because their over-financed home has been repo'd. Kind of like the Dragon swallowing its tail here.
SOOOOO, Joe Sixpack walks on his house, foreclosure.
THEN the Pension funds where Joe works/used to work, now have losses because of foreclosure.
Joe has no pension, because the pensions bought the securitized bonds.
In essence, Joe's purchase of the house he can't afford, ruins his pension fund.
Financial Wizardry & Collapse
It is in no way a local problem. There is a nationwide housing glut and we are on the cusp of a nationwide housing bubble bust.
And real estate does not always go up. In Los Angeles in the last cycle, prices peaked in 1989 and bottomed out in 1997. In that interval, L.A. lost 40% of its real value. But they are back up again now and headed for an even greater collapse. The same thing happened in Texas when oil prices collapsed in the 1990s. Billions were lost in Houston and Dallas real estate when prices collapsed.
Ron Patterson
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15416909/
Ron Patterson
Some neighborhoods which had been undesirable in the past have been able to use their new boom-equity to give themselves makeovers, to bootstrap themselves a bit. It would be sad to see those sink back post-boom.
The problem this time round is not how regional various markets are, but the sheer scale of financial investment, and the lack of any alternative to that financial structure, which seems to be built mainly on sand - 11 trillion dollars of conjured 'equity,' which is just starting to be recognized as 11 trillion dollars of additional debt that somebody is holding the bag to.
Some people seem to think that the Chinese are the unlucky ones, but I don't really think so - after all, they still make things other people want to buy. And they own the debt, they don't have to pay it back - unless Americans have finally gotten to the point that they will simply walk away from any obligations concerning the future.
Oh. Hmmm.
This is not my field and something I can barely puzzle about, but I wonder what fraction of the debt is in unbacked securities (and derivatives?). In a widespread default, they'd get burned ... but maybe not take the backed securities with them?
Mortgages : $12.6 trillion
Treasury bonds : 4.8
Corporate " : 3.1
Municipal " : 2.3
Consumer Credit: 2.3
Other : 2.5
------------------------------------
Sub-Total $27.6 Trillion
That's the non-financial sector of the economy only.
Here's the debt of the financial sector:
Corporate bonds : $ 4.5 trillion
Agcy+GSE mtg. pools : 3.8
GSE bonds : 2.7
Open mkt. paper : 1.5
Other : 1.0
-------------------------------------
Sub-total : $13.5 trillion
Grand Total : $41.1 trillion
That's 41.1 with 12 zeros after it.
Never before in the history of mankind have so many zeros meant so little to so many people.
Seriously, I think there is a collective madness to this.
hmm then how about
1,75C,D65,00B,000
no i guess that doesn't work either?
We won't have to worry until we reach महाशंख.
Ohmmmmm...Ohmmmmmmm.....
(not that I'm doubting their accuracy).
They don't include US trade deficit, or do they? And they don't include the trillions of future Social Security and Medicare obligations.
See here
It is a PDF file.
If you wish to see even more of such statistics see here. The relevant section is "Flow of Funds Accounts". The rest of the sections are very interesting, too.
The trade deficit is not debt, it's the imbalance between imports and exports. It does have influence on the debt, but not directly.
The debt of the govt. is 9 trillion, when the social security so called "trust fund" debt is included. It all depends on how you do the accounting.
For your guide, $41.1 trillion is abt. 330% of GDP and it is atrocious. By FAR the largest overall debt of any nation.
Is the level of US corporate debt higher than other countries? Is it too high? Should corporations reduce debt levels? I think the answer is no in all three cases.
US mortgage debt is high because their is a large percentage of homeowners and they have access to capital markets. There is nothing wrong with people holding mortgages and nothing on the face of it.
If Americans owe each other debt, it is not necessarily a problem at all. The level of US foreign debt, the government's balance of payments shortfall and the low level of savings among Americans are real issues. But the parade of numbers above is basically meaningless.
Leaving aside much complexity again, America has tended to buy things like plasma TVs or Ipods or jet skis or Nikes or SUVs or clothing or toys or granite counter tops, or whatever else would reflect classic consumer consumption.
What they haven't seem to bought is factories, maintained infrastructure, or improved things like public health systems. For example, check out the infrastructure along the Gulf Coast - if America had gone into massive debt to restore what was destroyed, that would be one thing, but to simply keep building more houses in the desert is something else.
And another thing which is somewhat different with debt in the U.S. and other countries - the normal level of credit card interest would be illegal as usury in most other countries - and the amount of money Americans spend servicing their personal debt is much higher than in other countries. But as noted, in America, that works out, since the Americans that can't do math are paying the good salaries of those who know how to make money from that fact.
However, transferring money is not quite the same thing as investing it in an electrical system which can handle the challenges which America will all too clearly be facing in the next decade.
Debt (leaving aside the issue of debt peonage at the personal or national level) can be considered neutral - it is the purpose of the debt that is important.
Debt can be considered neutral. In some applications (corporate debt, mortgages, student loans), it is frequently good. In some it is bad (usury, excessive consumption, to spend more than one makes - whether a government or an individual)
I don't deny that there are several aspects of the American debt situation that are enormous problems. Using credit cards to buy stuff that costs more than one will earn is a clear example. I do think it is going to come to a screeching halt at some point as it seems clear that the US can not borrow to consume forever.
None-the-less, just stacking up total US debt and getting scared by the enormity of the figure is not constructive. Nor does it present an accurate depiction of reality. The massive figure in the original post contains both good and bad debt - although I may admit the overall picture is worse than neutral.
I don't think it is entirely accurate to say that the US has bought only big screen TVs and invested nothing in infrastructure or equipment. A large portion of mortage debt is good. I am sure most of the corporate debt is going to productive purposes (debt is subject to greater scrutiny than equity spending). Google is worth more than the GDP of Thailand or Indonesia - and probably more than all of their factories. The US has also invested in a lot of manufacturing capacity. The just chose to locate it in China.
The Economist recently observed that modern business realized that the value creation process could be divided into three steps: design, production and marketing. Of these production is the least important, most volatile and most easily replaced. That is why US business has wisely chosen to outsource them and keep the high value aspects. I think this presents a huge, and potentially insurmountable, problem for the class of Americans who would work in factories. However at a system level, I don't think it is a problem.
I know people love to fixate on the idea that the US has completely lost its ability to "attach uppers to lowers" and whatever else they do in factories. It is a common belief that making something solid, like a cigarette lighters or washing machines is good, but making something intangible such as software, design or finance is bad. I don't agree. Comparative advantage is alive and well.
None of this is to say that the US is in great shape (I don't think it is) or that debt doesn't present a problem (I think it does). Just that the uneducated and hysterical obsession with an imminent American crash that fill the comments here is closer to wishful thinking than analysis.
And in turn, you can see how well having factories works compared to the engineering talent - the Russians shipped home every factory they could get their hands on at the end of WWII, both in Germany and in the parts of Japanese owned China, and they still make the same basically 1942 knock-off BMWs under a couple of different names.
There was an interesting book which ties both of these threads together in a more than tangential way, 'The Japan That Can Say No' - a good overview is found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Japan_That_Can_Say_No Intriguingly, according to the less than always reliable Wikipedia, 'The authorized 1991 Simon & Schuster translation by Frank Baldwin (out of print) did not include the essays by Morita.' That is, the writing of Sony chairman Akio Morita somehow slipped through the cracks, according to his own wishes. And the other author, Shintaro Ishihara is a fairly prominent political figure still. Of course, it was a book written at the peak of Japan's economic boom, at the very end of the Cold War, and parts of it seem to be filled with hubris of the sort which precedes a great fall. And it is hard to know if it was written merely for a domestic Japanese argument.
I do know that in the mid 1980s, as the Japanese started to dominate chip manufacture, especially of chips used in things like cruise missiles, that the U.S. created Sematech in response. A good book review can be found here - www.hbs.edu/bhr/archives/bookreviews/76/2002springadavies.pdf
However, living around DC, the emphasis I remember most was on ensuring that America could fight a war without relying on foreign manufacturers providing the components, which is where the point of the Japanese book comes in.
The thing is, the clear recognition of a challenge based on reality (a cruise missile requires x chips, we require y cruise missiles, and no one in America makes chip x) and the meeting of that challenge (forget ideology, how can we best foster a doemstic industry making chip x) currently seems to be the sort of thing which America is no longer capable of. Not that it can't do it, merely that it is very difficult to imagine it in today's America. Especially one that is used to ignoring the future while spending today.
As this is straying quite far from debt, suffice it to say, domestic manufacturers, like domestic food production, and a lack of external debt, are classic measures of strength in a geopolitical sense.
I've followed the debt/housing bubble thing for some time. I always like to point out that a large part of this debt is owned by South Koreans. American banks sell it. Simmons says - so goes Arabia, so goes the world. I say, so goes the US, so goes the world. And the world doesn't want to go down. Hello?
But let's examine a few things:
- "Debt is canceled out because is owed to one another" is a well-worn palliative - "pour epater les p'tits bourgeois", if you will excuse my french. In fact, 1% of the richest Americans own 38% of all financial assets and 2% own 55% - so everyone owes, alright, but an extremely tiny minority owns most of the interest on that debt. Anyone for storming the Bastille?
- As expat has pointed out very well, it does matter greatly to what use debt is put to. Examining only home mortgage debt, between the end of 2000 and 2Q2006 it rose by $4.73 trillion or 92%. In the same time, the total value of new home sales was $1.55 trillion. Assuming 80% was financed at 90% debt/equity this required a total of $1.12 trillion in new mortgages debt. Where did the other $3.61 trillion (=4.73-1.12) go? a)consumption via equity loans and b)raising existing home prices, ie pumping the bubble. Not good at all, as home prices are now dropping fast and these loans are very exposed.
- Debt size matters in the economy. In the USA between 1950 and 2005:
Total energy use (in BTU) up 2.9 times.Real GDP up 6.2 times.
Total real debt up 14.1 times.
This is scary, but it gets scarier when you see a time graph of those three together (one of these days I have to learn how to post them here). Most of the debt rise has come after 1980 and has accelerated even more sharply since 2000. In particular, the rise in the financial sector's debt has been exponential: in 1980 such debt was a small 11.2% of GDP, in 2000 82.7% and today a whopping 117%. Back in 1950 it was a minuscule 0.5% of GDP.
I do not wish to expand on this further here, but one can also obtain rather interesting insights as to the makeup of current GDP from these numbers and their relationships. In one word: flufferfluff.
Your comments mixes up so many points, it is hard to address them. The disparity of wealth in America is a problem because it is a disparity of wealth. If people should revolt, it is because the rich are too rich. The link to debt is fairly weak.
Debt in the financial sector has presumably grown because of the enormous and positive growth of the US financial sector. I am sure you would find the same thing in England, where London has come to rival New York. Also, as debt instruments become more sophisticated they are more useful and more widely used. Sounds good to me.
Debt that Americans owe to other Americans is one issue and can be a problem when it is so high they can not service it. It does not directly impact the dollar and it is not accurate to say that a small amount is good and a larger amount is bad. The optimal level of debt is not zero.
As I noted, there are elements of the US debt situation that are a huge concern. Because your comment is so broad-based, of course you touch on them. Basically, it is good to borrow money when they return one can earn on the debt is higher than the cost of the debt.
Clearly a large number of American household and large parts of the US governmnet have not followed this rule. It is clear that there will be pain involved in sorting it out. When and how much is still in the future and is unknown.
But my point still stands, you have lumped a bunch of good stuff with a bunch of bad stuff and are pointing to it all as a giant problem. The issue is more complex and requires a more careful analysis if your objective is other than scare-mongering.
As to "mixing up" issues I am sorry if they seemed disparate, I was just attempting to address your own points.
If you wish you can leave comments on my own "place", where debt and such, figure more prominently. Please do not construe this to be advertising. I have zero interest in attracting "blog readership".
Regards
I think the discussion is more effective when it focusses on specific "hot spots' and how they may cause the whole thing to unravel. I will take a look at your blog at some point and certainly think there is absolutely nothing wrong with your pointing to it.
Of course Smedkovo's name calling is also a fine addition to the intellectual content of the site and in line with Professors Goose's admonitions regarding childish attacks on other posters.
I'm not sure the number should be personalized to that degree. The pdf cited lists total debt at 4 neel as well.
Using this handy calculator, it looks like total debt (by the Federal Reserve's calculation) is growing at 8.71% annually. This, while the GDP grows at around 2-3%?
That doesn't sound good.
There are claims that presidents and central bankers have stated exactly that.
As with the first time, my mistake.
I am very well aware of the fact that real estate goes down - it happened in Northern Virginia and the DC area in the later 1980s - an expression then was 'God, give me another real estate boom and I promise not to piss it away' or some such.
We all know how that turns out - 'God, give us another planet ....'
Interesting the things like slope detection etc that allow some cross-use between FSM and ASM (frequency sarcasm modulation and amplitude sarcasm modulation)
Sarcasm does not do well on the Net. Humor just barely makes it - if it gave you the yuks in 6th grade, it will play well on the Net.
This is why smileys were invented! They go back to Teletype days so they are better than being misunderstood.
People do realize that the % of debt to value of homes has remained roughly the same from 2000 to today, right?
As a percentage of GDP it has gone from 65% to 93%.
A majority (slim perhaps) of homeowners have not moved in the last 6 years or extracted cash via refinancing their home. (One can refinance at a lower % and keep same balance, a prudent move).
They owe less today, are closer to payoff and have an asset that has appreciated substantially. They are in better shape than 6 years ago. Their debt/equity is about half what it was just 6 years ago. Housing prices can decline 50% and they are still "OK".
"The other half" (probably <50%) bought at higher prices, with lower down payments or have used their house as an ATM machine. A good % of these will be in trouble in a stable economy. Add a downturn (caused by housing & energy) and the % in trouble climbs. Add to these the "investment" buyers.
IMHO, it only takes 10% of the market either in foreclosure, panic sellers, or "have to" sellers to crater a market. Perhaps less than 10%. And if buyers get the idea that their own home is not the "American Dream", at least right now, buying pressure can be reduced.
Best Hopes,
Alan
The percent ratio remained constant, but the 'value' grew, making the owner that much richer. Or to look at it a bit differently, the debt grew, backed by an asset which had doubled in price while it depreciated in terms of its physical condition, and increased its owner's tax burden (real estate assessments went up, after all, as did the tax bill).
That 'value' is the source of my 11 trillion dollars, the difference in the worth of those houses between roughly 2000 and 2005 - magically, houses being lived in became ever more valuable for the simple fact they existed. And newly built houses became ever more valuable for the simple fact they were built, leading to more building of ever more valuable properties. America is a great country - nowhere else in the world does the real estate market work that way, unless it is in the grip of a speculative fever, which always ends in a speculative bust. As it did in Fairfax, VA in the later 1980s, for a non-3rd world example.
I think the expression for that sort of math then was 'stupid.' This was also when the Bush family was handling the S&L crisis (remember that? - corrupt banking practices leading to the greatest financial bail-out in history - how easily America can surpass itself these days, with minimal effort) - on both sides. That is, Bush I as the president who handled the clean-up, and a child or two of his with their fingers in the S&L self-dealing pie, before the RTC bail-out.
"Saw this, thought of you."
(That actually happened once. I heard it on Paul Harvey.)
Ron Patterson
That is LOL funny! With half the couples in this country divorced perhaps we could harness that sentiment to leverage the Peakoil Outreach. See my posting downthread near the bottom on TOD copyrighting next year's PET ROCK--but TOD would have to get going soon if we want to make the next XMAS season! It would also make a great year-round gag-gift like the gift-wrapped road apples.
But I bet it would make people read the book or watch the CD.Other marketing ideas w/attached book or CD:
A gascan that cannot be filled with a big gauge always reading empty.
Shoes with Peakoil or Global Warming carved into the soles so the walker leaves a message in the dirt, mud, or sand.
Chewing Gum labeled as 'Starvation Rations'.
Ringtones announcing Peakoil is coming, Peakoil is coming.
My favorite:
A beermug that shouts out Peakoil when the glass reaches half-empty!I wish I knew how to bring this stuff to market, but I bet us TODers have sufficient brainpower to copyright and find mfgs and marketers for this stuff. TOD could really use the money to compete against CERA and the Iron Triangle.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
> crashing down
Indeed one of my first thoughts was: Where do all these people live NOW - after foreclosure or selling at (too) low prices?
Moving back in with mom and dad is the classic way to deal with a financial setback.
Growing up in the 70s, I could never figure out the "catch" to that show (I now know the catch was that they were very poor) they seemed to eat a lot better than we did, had a working car at least most of the time, weren't sweating to make the high rent to a slumlord, etc.
Just for the record it took me a while to figure out The Honeymooners were considered to be living in squalor too.
properties if layered properly with newspapers
Kunstler goes over, in almost every Daily Grunt and CF Nation entry how horrible it would be if some ill were to befall his People, such as attacks on, or a decrease in US funding to, Israel, but then he gets right back to talking about how those horrible fried-pork eatin' goyim are going to get it.
He does not write for us, he writes to make money from us. I've bought his book, a neighbor borrowed it then moved away and I don't miss it because while it's great reading the first time through, it's not one of those books that you go back to read again and again.
And half a million dollars for a house with only one bathroom? Around here, old houses with only one bathroom are tough to sell.
It does make it harder, but... there's always been a lot of demand here, for as long as I've lived here. MoCo is where many of the congressmen, ambassadors, and lobbyists choose to keep their families in suburban housing. It's chock full of professional federal workers - we get a lot of those, while NoVa gets a most of the defense contractors, and more-affordable PG county gets most of the people working support infrastructure for the first two groups.
We have one of the busiest transport corridors @ the triple threat of i-270, Rockville Pike(aka a dozen other names depending on stretch) and Red Line Metro / MARC train. I've noticed a ton of additional transit oriented development, perhaps 50x 10+ story buildings put up in the last 5 years in Rockville / Silver Spring - especially the warm and fuzzy planned type with streetlevel shops. Meanwhile Bethesda and Silver Spring have been full-grown urban entities in their own right for years, and have seen significant development as well.
The suburbs don't disappear when confronted with TOD, they simply rise in property value in proportion to the amount of development nearby, being closer to more potential work and shopping while still having a 'faux-country-backyard-driveway-shadetrees' appeal. And whereas you can now shell out a million for an unassuming suburban 2500sf 4b/2ba house with no sidewalks, but within walking distance of Rockville Town Center (which is taking on almost the shape of the explicitly planned new urbanist Reston Town Center), the people that can't afford that have to live somewhere. Some move upwards into apartments, while others move outwards - the classic suburban developers are moving further north and east, they're eating farmland and unused fields about 15-20 miles out from the corridor now, like locusts.
My girlfriend lives in a crappy old VA-project 1700sf 1 bath 3BR on 1/6 acre that's apparently worth around 300k, mainly because it's right next to a bus line and a mile or three out from Silver Spring Metro station. That's considered an average house in one of the two or three low-income, gang-infested neighorhoods in the county.
Eveyone in an extended family could designate a debt that that we like to see reduced (e.g., a credit card balance or mortgage) or a charity that they would like to see supported (e.g., a local food bank).
Then family members do a "Secret Santa" drawing,and write a check, in an amount you are comfortable with, to the designated financial institution or charity.
Think of how much easier it would be to clean up after opening the presents.
We have been doing something like this on our own for a while--sending donations to the local food bank in people's names.
Start on reducing debt in your own family and/or on increasing the use of alternatives (chip in and buy Gramma a Solar Radiant Floor system for Xmas).