HO,

Good post, I see you and I have a vice in common, as I am sure do many TOD posters, and that is returning to "old" books, to get a bit of a longer range perspective.  The other day, there was a discussion of good books, and I didn't join in.  With rare exception, most books are forgotten in a matter of a few years, and have about as much long range perspective as a magazine article.  There are a few exceptions, my only "peak" books are "Twilight" by Simmons, I'm glad I have it, and "High Noon For Natural Gas", a bit of a disappointment, (as much an anti-American spasm as anything else).
The rest I have seen are hysterical panic spreaders, reruns of what you can get on the web for free.

When I want to read an early overview of everything we talk about now, from 26 years ago, I go to "The Third Wave" by Alvin Toffler.  He discussed depletion, re-localization, environmental, even the "techno-rebels", the variety of philosophies that would attack all technology not so much on technical or scientific basis, but on a "yearning for a new dark age" aesthetic and philosophical basis.

One more.  "Arabia, the Gulf, and the West" by J.B. Kelly.
Published in the same year as Toffler's "Third Wave, 1980, it is a historical, cultural and political overview of the Persian Gulf.  It can be gotten for (used) 5 bucks on Amason, and given the current catastrophic American failure in Iraq, it is priceless.  Many reviewers seemed to miss the main point that Kelly was trying to make (why is this no surprise?) in 1980, being:  American wealth and power had dwarfed European power and the Europeans, especially Britain (to a lesser extent, France) had been "evicted" from the Middle East by the Americans, at Suez, and even more so in 1967 and 1973, when the Americans began their "protection for oil" special arrangement with Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait and Iran, and the even more "special" arrangement with Qatar (headquarters for Centcom, the whole Middle East command) for natural gas.  

Kelly makes the point that the Europeans can be expected to be of little assistance to the Americans, and possibly even a thorn in the side when it comes to Middle East policy, given their resentment of being "booted", and the lost oil and money (one can still hear the edge in the voice of the French Total executives when they speak of essentially being "legally" shoved aside and nationalized out of Iraqi oil.  The Japanese will be no happier as they see Iranian natural gas slipping away from them.

Kelly stresses that if the Americans want to take Europe's colonial role in the Middle East, they will have to be willing to police their power, which means a standing army and essentially iron hand tactics, plus a "viceroyalty" type administration.  Kelly was betting in 1980 that the Americans would NOT be willing or able to police the region in this way, and it would fall into chaos.

We are now at the point that Kelly predicted so long ago.  Do we "do what it takes" to retain control in Iraq....if we have the will, can we retain the resources to do it, and at what point can we no longer stomach what it takes?

Kelly's view was that without some outside force, the region would descend into ethnic, religious, and warlord struggles, and any advanced culture would be impossible.  The other alternative was an iron fist Ba'athist/Marxist single party style regime.....ala, Sadam Hussain.  It is a fascinating reread so many years later given the current situation, and one wishes that some of the Bush regime had been familiar with it, or if they are, had understood it's implications.

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

Thanks for the intriguing review. Who would you suggest as the  viceroyal? A strong women for this Arab state would certainly send an appropriate and humiliating message. How about Dr. Rice as the 'vicereine?' A weaker women would send an even stronger message. Both Bush daughters as twin 'viceigels?'

I just ordered the book used from Amazon for $0.01, plus $3.49 shipping. I'll miss the internet and my private courier at UPS.

pete

Do you really think that Heinberg falls into the category of "hysterical panic spreaders?"  I find his material quite well-reasoned, and articulated in a sober and moderate tone.

And what about Deffeyes, for that matter?


PhilRelig,

I have nothing against Heinberg in particular, in fact, I have enjoyed some of his short speeches and articles I have read, but his decision against this culture long preceded any real discussion or concept of peak oil.  I don't think he would be insulted to be considered a "deep green" or radical environmentalist.  The peak oil thing just fell into his lap as a vehicle to achieve the long desired destruction of the hated imperialist/capitalist/modernist way.  His fav' stomping ground, New College, was born in 71 with exactly that agenda.  Again, I have nothing against him for that, it his right, and I myself have been known to "trend left" in many of my views, but I would not consider him an expert on energy, or in any way a first rank writer on the peak oil issue...I like his stuff better when he stays to "eco green" leftist philosophy, that's his strong suit.  But I am looking for folks who are looking for solutions, not for folks hoping for the meltdown.

On Deffeyes, I will not pick at him.  I think that his age has caused him to say and write things he would not have when he was younger (the infamous "stone age by 2030" remark, picking peak dates one after the other, almost to the hour, etc.)  He obviously has the geological pedigree, and has been very sharp in years gone by.  I want people to treat me kindly as the years pile up, so I will do the same.  And if he turns out to be right on the Dec last year date, I have to retract everything and say even though he is a contrary ole' fart, he wins hands down...(and he's just contrary enough to pull it off out of pure spite!)

The thinkers I hold in pretty high esteem on energy and peak/depletion issues (not that you asked, but that has never stopped me before) are:

Matthew Simmons-very sharp, has the contacts, decent writer.  Simmons has brought a level of respect to the peak oil cause that it had not known before, brillian presentations to the rich and powerful, the real respected "voice" of the whole peak idea as it exists today.

Christophe de Margerie-French Total head of exploration-knows oil and facts "on the ground", understands "logistical peak" and very balanced in his thinking.

Jean Laharrere-good stats, all around researcher, willing to change mind if the facts don't back him up.

This ones a real problem for me:
Megan Quinn-On her, I go back and forth.  She is VERY dark sometimes, and not so at others.  She is very serious, and very humane.  She sometimes seems to get "energy" and "oil" tangled together, but understands the need to ACT NOW as though the emergency is already upon us, and begin reducing fuel consuption now.  All in all, I vote up for now, but that may just because I have a thing for smart women! ;-)

Lastly, some folks here, Westexas, Stuart, RR, Alan from the big easy....what can I say, these guys are as good as the best!  :-)

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

Do we "do what it takes" to retain control in Iraq....if we have the will, can we retain the resources to do it, and at what point can we no longer stomach what it takes?

Didn't the British use gas against an Iraqi uprising in the 1920s?


Prodigal Son asks
"Didn't the British use gas against an Iraqi uprising in the 1920s?"

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/history/britishindex.htm
"In response to Iraqi resistance, including a country-wide uprising in 1920, British forces battled for over a decade to pacify the country, using airplanes, armored cars, firebombs and mustard gas."

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/histindex.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Iraq
"During the British occupation the Shiates and Kurds fought for independence. Britain used phosphorus bombs against Kurdish villagers in the revolt. Legal experts consider phosphorus bombs chemical weapons when used as an anti-personnel weapon."

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

Roger really pisses me off sometimes. (yeah, you are right, I just wouldn't have done it right now). And those times he pisses me off belong to him. YOU ARE A FUCKING SHITHEAD I LOVE YOU. Hope you're reading history of great American Architects.
FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT. I will only take Roger's take on Frank. Roger's the only one ever paid attention.

I love to look at Frank's buildings, but he REALLY PISSES ME OFF sometimes! :-)

For those interested in how we got in this car culture mess, read Frank Lloyd Wright's advice to the newly minted prosperous of Oak Park...
"Go as far out from the city as you believe is far enough and then go twice as far.  No matter how far you go, it will not be far enough, the city will soon catch up to you.  With modern transportation, there is no need to be packed into the city, but instead the free American should enjoy the bounties of the countryside, .....yada, yada, yada....Frank hated the city with every bone in his body, but loved to go to the city to chide the Euro trash that descended in as Hitler took control....Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, Gropius and the smaller fish, can you imagine how PISSED Frank was when Illinois and Armour meat packing through the old Armour Institute brought HIM, old van der Rohe himself right into the heartland!  And Frank hated basements!  I could never get over that....there he was, like me, born in tornado country, and told people they didn't need a damm basement!!

But then I see Fallingwater....or the Robie House, or Taliesin West, or the interior of the Unity Temple at Oak Park, or the MASTERPIECE, The Johnson Wax Building......
ALL IS FORGIVEN....I try to tell you guys, it's all about the aesthetics, the philosophy....

Roger Conner known to you as ThatsItImout

It would be nice if the Bush regime was informed of just about anything.  All of the knowledge and information about Iraq pointed against us going in there.  There literally is not a shred of evidence to suggest that going into Iraq was a good idea.  But this is the problem when we have a hereditary political office and end up with someone who wants to one-up his old man.