138 comments on DrumBeat: December 23, 2006
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138 comments on DrumBeat: December 23, 2006
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I think that things will change according to the nessecity.
We will drive as long as we can drive. There will be discussion about how to conserve, but I think conservation will just happen where it can be done and where it is needed. Just like what is now happening in the third world where country after country is shutting down.
I don't believe in a masterplan put in place by the government to make the transition happening. The forces needed are simply to big and to costly.
The only master plan is letting oil, gas and NG prices rise to the level that demand destrution balances suply and demand again.
The efforts to migitate future energy shocks are so huge and ask for so much sacrifices years before it is actually needed, that any politician who will ask this from the civilians will be put out of office right away.
So things will be done when the need is there, not any sooner.
What do you think?
Roger from The Netherlands.
We have a country to huge that no one can expect to act much different and still be in the ploitical process. Maybe the size of the Netherlands makes statesman-like behaviour possible. The antceint Greeks thought democracy was impossible in any polis with more than about 5,000 citizens, and I'm not seeing much to change my opinion.
If there is to be a government based response to Peak Oil, it will require an extraordinary leader like FDR to sell the ide to both the public and elites.
But I think that this will only happen when we are a couple of years on the downslope. In the mean time it is wise to get out of debt, get your house and youself in goof shape and buy some gold (not a paper gold-option, but some real krugerrands)
Al Gore has recognized the problem (and most likely has the knowledge of the system to assist in implementation.) However, he ,like all empiricists, believes that if he just lays out the evidence people will see what the problem is and what they need to do about it. Unfortunately, as we have seen that is not necessarily the case (see Number 5 above)
As I say, a small response:
http://www.herald-mail.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=154713&format=html
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061221/BUSINESS01/612210378
I can only think that such things will accelerate if and when "peak oil" becomes apparent to the average consumer.
... if you are an arch-cynic, that's the kind of thing you just didn't expect to happen ... yet.
-more efficient vehicals
-cutting car trips
Thing is, there will be a lot of losers in the proces.
Just like the African countries that power down first, it wiil also be the poor individuals in the US and Europe that will power down first.
Ah well, I'm out for the weekend. Merry Christmas to all ...
The main reason for this is the energy price increase (up 80% since 2000) people cannot afford to pay anymore.
Powering down in the mists of plenty!
Is this happening in the US also?
Roger from the Netherlands
I am in Canada and was unaware of the degree of current impact of recent price changes in your country. I know of nothing similar here.
With regards your comments on GHG and AGW I believe you are being much too complacent. There is growing evidence that the environment may be more sensitive to forcing then was first believed. GHG continue to increase at a rate greater then that encountered in any prior historical natural record; the potential for positive feedbacks resulting in a further acceleration of AGW is high.
The IPCC is due to issue an updated report early in the coming year. I would strongly urge reading the text of the IPCC report. The press does a very poor job of communicating the issues.
I would also observe that statements along the lines of "we cannot afford the required response to mitigate AGW as this would devastate the [local, national, global] economy" simply underscore the degree to which our current economic system is unsustainable. To put it bluntly, we cannot afford our current western lifestyle. Both PO and AGW are in the process of teaching us the truth of that fact.
Cheers! And best wishes of the season.
I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being cut off from water in the U.S. I don't know what happens if you don't pay your bill, but I imagine it would be considered a health issue to not have water.
Power and natural gas can be cut off, but generally not in winter. What happens is people who can't pay rack up huge bills in the winter - so big they can't pay them in summer. So they get cut off in the summer, and the next winter they struggle to heat their homes.
It's apparently pretty common for people to try to heat their homes by turning on the oven and leaving the door open. (Which is not safe.) Also to run the shower with all hot water (since often, hot water is included in the rent, while electricity isn't).
We have programs to help the poor with winter heating costs, but there's not enough funding for them. Hence states' eager acceptance of Chavez's cheap oil charity, even when they hate his politics.
My wive is a social worker and the stories she sees unfolding in the poor families are heartbreaking... children starting to smell because there is no running water to wash with... people who burned their house down because they tried to stay warm with a wood fire inside...
This is just the beginning!
-Depletion of oil and N.gas fields in Europe
-Increasing imports of energy from outside Europe
-Large amounts of immigrants from the former Russian states and Africa
-The aging of the total polulation
-The introducton of the Euro
Remember the large riots in France this year?
This sort of thing is unsustainable regardless of the size of the energy supply or of the economy itself, so in accordance with Stein's law, and consistent with the post, it isn't being sustained. So I have to guess that in the end, and putting it crudely, if people demand trainloads of this, plenty of that, and boatloads of the other thing, then there's little choice but to also demand that they turn off the TV, drag their bottoms out of the couch, and work for it.
Unlike that marvelous and fantastically cheap highway network in the U.S., which has paid for itself and is generating a profit to this day?
Sorry for the sarcasm. My point is that the TGV network may be expensive to build, but as far as I can tell it makes a profit, so that's hardly an argument against it!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A711785
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1215/is_n7_v194/ai_14163718
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_6_43/ai_105203013
Squatters have the right to have a connection to the grid etc. - they still have to pay, of course.
I do believe the problems are going to really ripple through the financial sector. Seeing the amazing statistics regarding consumer negative savings rates and debt levels, it would appear that a significant portion of the populus is poorly prepared for rapidly increasing energy costs.
So, once the peak oil is out of the bag, I imagine that many will start to drastically cut back on discetionary items that fuel the economy, and keep people employed.
Look at the auto industry. Ford and GM cannot survive without the sales of SUV's and trucks. Their business model is dependant on those high margin vehicles, for now. From what I remember, about 1 in 5 domestic jobs are tied to auto industry. From manufacturing, subcontractors (Johnson Controls, Dana, etc) all the way to the person selling you the vehicle. Oh, and don't forget the refiners that make gasoline. So about 20 percent employment!
The average person owing 20k on an SUV will have a hard time unloading a highly undesireable vehicle to go buy a hybrid, or Corolla. Will they be able to continue to fill up the SUV? Ford or GM will have to look alot different when the peak oil news breaks, or one of them is going to fail quickly. (Rather than the slow death they are now experiencing)
How about the Marine industry? I would expect that would suffer a huge contraction. This will be one of the first industries to take a big hit.
RV Industry: Ditto the Marine Industry.
Dining out. Mid tier and up will start to suffer. (Chili's, TGI Fridays, etc) This is about the first to go when consumers are pinched. (in this case, rising energy costs)
Housing. The exurbs will be a undesireable place. I see a shift toward consolidation around employment centers. What happens to those institutions holding paper that financed this housing?
IMHO, these are the things that I would expect to suffer in "Phase I". By no means a comprehensive list.
When the consumer starts cutting back, or eliminating the need for the aforementioned items, I would expect unemployment to skyrocket. An unemployed individual does not pay his bills, let alone buy much other than basic necessities.
Conclusion: A viscous circle of layoffs, foreclosures, failing industries (reliant an discrentionary income), higher taxes, inflation, declining wealth from a depressed stock market and finally bank failures.
Capitalism cannot work without growth. Nothing has been proven yet to provide the energy density and transportability of oil (save nuclear), and that oil has fueled alot of growth.